https://youtu.be/n2FZc2xLdPg
Here is an idea - it could be fear that makes people leave?
Having just (re)joined this site the first article I read was Living with Integrity.
...Integrity means that your actions are for the greater good. Sometimes there are acts of integrity which actually are not optimal for you; they're optimal for the larger society around you... Integrity is thinking out seven generations.The second was this article on how to escape, pay no tax and "preserve your wealth". These two articles seem to come from diametrically opposed positions: the former of considering others, the planet, and future generations and the latter: consider what's best for yourself and family and b*gger anything else. Like Granny, Barbara and Paco, I'm not a fan of this article. It seems to be aimed at the same cohort as the San Fransiscans buying land in New Zealand, building bunkers and learning how to manage their private armies, while exploring options of moving off-planet or uploading their brains into long-term storage so as to avoid any of that SHTF getting on their armani suits.
Both of my children are currently teaching abroad. Neither of them feels like they can afford to return to the states and start a life here. We are not rich, but I can see where they would have a difficult time paying for life in America. Healthcare in particular. The teaching profession is being pummeled here as well and I wouldn’t want either of them trapped by the ridiculous regulations that are causing teachers to flee by the dozens. It’s not for lack of caring. I see a lot of young people following this lead.
1st Story
A very wealthy guy, supposedly he acquired his wealth from wall street and the financial markets, bought a lovely place in one of our quaint coastal towns. As the story goes he made it known he just wanted peace and quiet and to be left alone not wanting to interact with the community. Of course having a lot of money he wanted his new place remodeled and up-cycled. As fate would have it he had to interact with some of the towns-people so he could hire laborers to do his remodel. You know the ending, the locals didn’t like the guy, and the rich guy didn’t like the locals. Needless to say he would show up and find his house not to his liking. Yep, he sold the place and moved on and the locals shared a keg.
2nd story
There was a beautiful fishing lodge, meticulously furnished and decorated, on one of our world class fishing rivers owned by an outsider. Anyway the outsider hired a local to check on the place regularly which he did. Apparently no activity. When the owner showed up and walked through the door he was shocked, the place was empty, completely. Ever piece of furniture, plate, towel, even the toilet paper tube was gone. Disappeared, gone, vanished.
Last story
We have snow-birds here. People who spend their summers in Alaska and winters elsewhere. One snowbird asked a guy he knew to keep an eye on his place and he agreed. Upon returning the next spring the owners possessions, most of them were gone. So the owner went to his neighbors house and asked if he had any idea where his stuff was. His neighbor said yes last fall there was a big garage sale and the friend told everyone the owner was quitting Alaska and to sell everything. Nice possessions and reasonable prices, the garage sale was a hit. Apparently the garage sale funded the not so reliable friends travels down the Alaska Highway and out of state.
There are benefits to being part of a community and not an outsider.
The US is the third country I’ve lived in and I’m currently in the process of moving back to Europe (not expatriating). On the practical level all European countries except effective city states and due to some very rare exceptional circumstances issue a higher tax rate on their population than the US does and hence moving to Europe will most likely simply increase your tax burden. Double taxation can be avoided by using a good accountant there and picking a country that has a tax deal with the US (almost all of them do). The best thing an American can do to avoid being taxed in the US is to simply move to Puerto Rico and use their special deal that let’s you get away from social security, medicare and US income tax. You’ll still end up paying a 4% Puerto Rico tax. The only downside is that you’ll have to sell practically everything you own on the mainland and, well, live in Puerto Rico, which will be increasingly torn into smithereens every few years by a hurricane.
I completely disagree that avoiding US federal taxes is somehow anti-social, because these taxes are mostly used for wars and Ponzi schemes (e.g. Social Security or medicare). Practically all funding of what people would typically consider essentials such as schools, the fire department or roads is done on the state or local level, and in cases where it’s not the question is about reshuffling money back from the federal government that the states have paid to it in the first place.
I left the US just after grad school in '94. It should have been for 18 months (my first contract). I am still out of the US. While away, I paid off my student loans (not getting rich off your backs, Granny) to the US. With Obama, banks became less happy to have US citizens (IRS was outsourcing enforcement etc). I don’t pay taxes in the US because I pay more here (and there is a tax treaty, so I have a credit for what I pay where I live). For over 20 years, I dutifully filled out all of my tax forms, here and for the US. Since I don’t need to pay, I am not shirking my “fair share”. I decided enough was enough and sent back the little blue book with my picture in it. It cost a bit of money (around 2’000 and some of my time). I am far below the 2 million net worth, and below the +100’000 tax liability (I am not wealthy, just a normal person wanting a normal life). Now I don’t need to fill out the IRS forms. Everyone needs to decide what they think is ethical and moral. For me, there was 0 benefit to have the citizenship (I have two other passports, one from marriage and the other from residence/naturalization). I won’t be moving back to the US, I am rather pleased where I am. I don’t feel that I “stole” any wealth from the US as the main things I took away were debts.
If you are going to move to Australia, and as a rule, we integrate migrants very well, (more than 60% of the population of Sydney are migrants) you will be welcomed, you get free health care, and a good free education, but you should know that the Australian sense of humor will be applied very vigorously to you.
You will be the subject of many incredibly crude jokes that you will find shocking. If you accept them with some grace, and even fire back with one or two of your own you will be accepted. If you complain you will be outcast. It’s the Australian way of bonding.
OH, fyi, root in Australia means sex, and thong is something you wear on your feet, i think you call them flip flops. Colour is spelt correctly with the u. The date format is day/month/year not the way you do it.
Welcome americans 
PS, what is the best thing about America? Its somewhere to keep the Americans. (see about the jokes).
paco-
I come to this website for information on the economy, markets, environment, and energy. This article isn’t really what I’m looking for. I felt the same way about the “how to buy up real estate after the market crashes” seminar — feels like we’re just like everybody else waiting for the opportunity to fleece the more gullible and less fortunate.Ok. I've seen this meme here for a while. It makes me confused. We have two very clear choices. We can either: 1) buy assets now, at the top of the bubble 2) wait to buy our assets after the price has dropped To those of you who believe this "fleecing the gullible" meme, are you suggesting it is somehow more moral to select option #1 - buy the top along with the herd? That, somehow, going against the herd (and by that act of restraint, getting more for your money) is somehow immoral?
my sense is that it is what you do with your fleecing that creates a moral dilemma. Joseph was likely considered a sheerer of the fleece by many during the 7 yrs of plenty, and a savior of the same during the 7 yrs.of pestilence.
We have two very clear choices. We can either: 1) buy assets now, at the top of the bubble 2) wait to buy our assets after the price has droppedThere are many more options. e.g. put your money into something productive that gives financial return, but more importantly, a social/environmental return. Add an extra axis (or two) to your choices, e.g. : x=likely return, y="value"
There arent “many more options”. In any investment [ or any purchase for that matter ] you want to buy when prices are low, and sell when prices are high.
There’s no “axis x and y”, you are talking yourself out of common sense.
Ok. I’ve seen this meme here for a while. It makes me confused.
We have two very clear choices. We can either:
- buy assets now, at the top of the bubble
- wait to buy our assets after the price has dropped
To those of you who believe this “fleecing the gullible” meme, are you suggesting it is somehow more moral to select option #1 – buy the top along with the herd? That, somehow, going against the herd (and by that act of restraint, getting more for your money) is somehow immoral?
So the ONLY considerations are #1 and #2 which the goal is for the INDIVIDUAL to make a PROFIT. Just perhaps an investment can be analyzed based upon its potential which ALSO includes how it affects PEOPLE and the ENVIRONMENT. Creating a world worth inheriting, for a lot of us anyway, is NOT about how much profit can be made.
There is talking the talk then there is walking the talk. The meme of “ creating a world worth inheriting” unfortunately is more talk then walk. Which is sad because I would love to believe that creating a world worth inheriting was more of a priority than making money. But evidence does not support that. Perhaps my mistake is to think we were talking about EVERYONES children not just those making big profits.
I agree completely with Sonerous only she us being nice. False dichotomy - how about greed and indifference?
AKGranny
First, Sonerous-
e.g. put your money into something productive that gives financial return, but more importantly, a social/environmental return.Fantastic. I leave it entirely in your hands as to which asset you select. I promise not to twist your arm to buy something that has no social/environmental return. In fact, I encourage you to follow your feelings in this area. Pick something that makes you feel as though you are making a social and environmental contribution. You are the person on the scene - I trust your judgement in this area implictly. Of course, when it gets down to brass tacks, there's a price tag involved. Would you prefer to pay top dollar for this social/environmental asset, or would you prefer to buy it at a discount? If you ask me, I'm going to suggest you buy it at a "discount". After the bubble pop. Now Granny-
So the ONLY considerations are #1 and #2 which the goal is for the INDIVIDUAL to make a PROFIT. Just perhaps an investment can be analyzed based upon its potential which ALSO includes how it affects PEOPLE and the ENVIRONMENT. Creating a world worth inheriting, for a lot of us anyway, is NOT about how much profit can be made.Sure. I leave it to you to sort out what asset you'd like to buy. You're the person on the scene. How it affects people, how it affects environment, I trust your judgement on this matter completely. But at the end of the day, you're going to write a check for the asset. My most basic question is, would you prefer the check be smaller, or larger - for that same asset? The asset should probably also provide a return, of course - and a system and method for analyzing a return on a given asset would certainly be a useful tool, don't you think?
We are still talking past each other. Asking the BASIC question of whether I want to write a check that is smaller or larger completely ignores the whole conversation. Your still talking “profit”. I am trying to point out to all who read this site that it is THE pursuit of profit that has caused misery and destruction on a grand and small scale alike! I suspect that ever so many readers here know in their gut, or instinctually that their constant and selfish pursuit of profit hurts people and the planet.
Really does every piece of property or asset need to return a profit? Our Indigenous peoples would have found that concept incomprehensible.
And buying “at a discount” after the bubble pops? Oh my god … let’s buy up those houses of the poor people who lost their jobs, farm land and any asset. Hey I know lets invest in a card board box factory and sell big ones as the new “ affordable “ homes for all those who are affected by the, now deflated bubble. That would be funny if it weren’t so true. Profit indeed!
https://youtu.be/hG0ipvIoFZs
https://youtu.be/W5J_qn93Nkc
This is THE message, don’t you think?
If I bought a four-plex, for example, and invested in water and energy efficiency as well as energy generation upgrades (eg, solar), which then greatly reduces utilities bills (& carbon footprint) for future tenants. If I wait to buy that plex on a dip (using some of the Real Estate Guy’s teachings), do those upgrades, raise the rents to something less than utility bill savings (or equal to at most) and add in annual rent changes consistent with that plex’s market, then I could to make a tidy profit so that I can do it again. This is evil? Not save the world-level good, true, but it would do at least some good while doing well. It all depends on how you use the info, tools, market-corrections/bubble-popping opportunities, etc.
If I understand your post, you are living, earning and paying taxes abroad. Not the mercenary expat who’s trying to smuggle money out of the US that the article references.
Let me be clear, buy low and sell high. Nobody forces you to be the bigger fool that buys at the top of bubbles. The fact that people actually expect me to somehow bail them out when they elect to try the next “get rich scheme” without the capacity to understand the current speculators running wall street strikes me as insane. If you don’t have the sense to learn about economics and investments (and it’s not easy to do so in the US) I feel no responsibility to make up for your bad investments or unwillingness to save.
My comments are directed to people who have used their political connections to get legislation and FED policies that enhance their ability to make billions from creating bubbles and then feel justified in finding more loopholes to extract those funds from the economy.
... I am trying to point out to all who read this site that it is THE pursuit of profit that has caused misery and destruction on a grand and small scale alike! I suspect that ever so many readers here know in their gut, or instinctually that their constant and selfish pursuit of profit hurts people and the planet.Yes we were talking past each other. I didn't realize what your core issue was - you were objecting to the very concept of profit. So let me address that directly. There have been a number of efforts in the past to develop human civilizations that didn't involve profit. Each has failed spectacularly - with tens of millions of people killed. I claim this failure is because self interest is built in to human biology. The love of profit (and/or a "windfall") is a reproductive advantage - those humans who didn't love windfalls and profit died out millions of years ago, leaving only our self-interested forefathers alive. As a result, any system that does not take advantage of (and/or use self interest as a basic motivating force) will end up failing spectacularly, because it attempts to go against inner nature, and as such, it is doomed to failure. Self interest should be more regulated than it is now, for sure. There are lots of things I'd do to make society less rapacious if you put me in charge. Nobody is threatening to do this, so I must reluctantly operate in my own environment. However there are still options, as dabenham said. Buy a 4-plex after prices tumble, then use your spare cash to retrofit it with panels, insulation, windows, maybe even backup batteries, then charge a bit of a premium (but less than what the savings would be - so there's a win-win), which would be beneficial to both parties. Advertising these as green rentals would definitely appeal to a big chunk of the younger generation. That's what I mean. Society benefits overall when someone creates a new thing that people want to buy, driven by the profit motive.
Really does every piece of property or asset need to return a profit? Our Indigenous peoples would have found that concept incomprehensible.Indigenous peoples were hunter-gatherers. Nature provided the profit - they didn't have to. If the plants and animals that they harvested and the ecosystem in general wasn't generating a profit - in terms of net energy - the entire ecosystem would simply die off and collapse. Profit is built into the very fabric of life. [And its all well and good to decry profit and hint that we should live like the indigenous peoples - but, if you were the animal being hunted by them, you'd probably think they were bloodthirsty savages hell-bent on murder and exploitation of your herd and/or family unit. It all depends on your point of view, I guess.]
And buying “at a discount” after the bubble pops? Oh my god … let’s buy up those houses of the poor people who lost their jobs, farm land and any asset.I recommend you only buy assets at a discount from reprehensible slumlord scumbags who mistreat their tenants. There are plenty of those around. Buy the four-plex from the scumbag after the bubble pops, retrofit the units, like dabenham suggests, and make the places more eco-friendly. You can make those tenants lives better, while keeping the rents the same. You will still make a profit each month - a better one than the old slumlord because you bought at a discount - and the tenants will revere you as a goddess. And you can dance on the grave of that slumlord. Everyone loves a windfall. If you give your tenants a windfall, they will be very happy. They will never, ever move out! (Trust me. I've seen this very thing in operation). And you got the windfall from the scumbag slumlord courtesy of the business cycle. Yay!
“There have been a number of efforts in the past to develop human civilizations that didn’t involve profit. Each has failed spectacularly – with tens of millions of people killed.“
Well yeah, Jared Dimond explains that in his book, Guns, Germs And Steel. These civilizations died not because their civilization didn’t involve profit but because they were slaughtered by civilizations that were more technologically advanced and those were the ones that valued profit. The conquered civilizations assets were stripped and a gigantic profit was made in tangible assets and slavery as well.
“That’s what I mean. Society benefits overall when someone creates a new thing that people want to buy, driven by the profit motive.”
I disagree. The key words being “ society benefits” Um you mean like slavery, GMO’s, medicine that is only available for the rich or really well insured, how about basic needs like water food and shelter. No society, OFTEN, does NOT benefit from the profit motive. How about child labor laws. Children used to regularly die working in sweat shops, mines and coal plants right along with the adults. Safety regulations, there weren’t any. Society benefited when it took up arms and rioted and DEMANDED basic labor laws. The profit driven robber barrens hated the demands of the working class. Oh and the moneyed class have spent the last 70 to 80 years undoing many of the hard fought benefits the middle class demanded, like jobs, unions, a reasonable work week a fair tax system. And as for the moneyed class, consider this.
“War against a foreign country only happens when the moneyed classes think they are going to make a profit!” George Orwell
So no I personally don’t believe society benefits or profits from war! The moneyed class for sure do!
You are working extremely hard to make the pursuit of profit sound positively rosy and appealing. I suspect you are on the PP payroll to counter posts that are not complementary and rosy. No big deal but speculation is interesting I think. Or you just like debate, I am unsure, care to comment?
”Profit is built into the very fabric of life.”
Obviously that is your “belief” and many of the other readers here but I disagree. Profit is a man made and learned concept. People were sharing, trading, benefiting and interacting to survive for thousands of years. Profit has to do with financial gain. Plants and animals often have symbiotic relationships where both entities derive some benefit but it is shared and not financial. Whole clans, tribes, cities and towns have worked together for the communities benefit but each individual was not consumed with the obsession of individual profit like people are today. So no I don’t think profit is built into the fabric of life. Protection, preservation, benefit, symbiosis yes. Financial gain, nope.
For those of you who love your profits I leave you with one last quote.
“The trouble with the profit system has always been that it was highly unprofitable to MOST people.” E.B. White
The obsessive pursuit of profit may just lead us to our own extinction.
AKGrannyWGrit
Dave Fairtex wrote,
Indigenous peoples were hunter-gatherers.Not all of them, certainly not the Australian aborigines. Most of these, especially in the more southern parts of the continent, were largely sedentary farmers, tilling the land, harvesting grains and grasses, building small towns and thatched stone barns in which to store large quantities of the harvest, setting up sophisticated fish traps, and so on. The early European explorers could find themselves in finely tilled soil, deep as a horse's chest, over large expanses of land. A wide variety of highly nutritious plants was grown. It appears that in fact the entire continent was being managed as one enormous estate, and for millennia, longer than any other culture on Earth. Sure, the aboriginals were not perfect, there were wars and fighting among them, but nothing like European mutual slaughterings! The Europeans seem to have set about deliberately destroying this remarkable civilisation. They drove the aboriginal people off their land, burnt down the granaries almost the moment they were discovered, gave out blankets infected with smallpox when the aboriginals were winning the war of resistance, hunted them down in raiding parties, and so on and on ad nauseam. The chief European weapon was the sheep, whose hard, chisel feet and destructive grazing habit turned fine tilth into hard pan within about 20 or 30 years of their arrival. One could say that Australia has been sheep-wrecked. I am not making any of this up. This has all come out of recent, sober publications that I have found amazing and transformational. I grew up taught that the aboriginals were not worth considering. I have completely changed my attitude. Sometimes I wonder if we know-it-all Europeans are worth considering. (Bruce Pascoe, Dark Emu, Charles Massy, Call of the Reed Warbler, Bill Gammage, The Greatest Estate on Earth.)
And Australian aboriginal culture was based on principles of sharing and thoughtful exploitation of resources. Europeans find this almost impossible to understand, one reason why so many Aboriginal peoples are in dire trouble.