Most young people think leverage is the best way to get ahead. They’re assuming prices will continue to rise, hence the debt will be inflated away (“It worked for previous generations, so why wouldn’t it work now?”). And honestly, it might work out fine. I guess the under on that type of bet is that there’s an emerging tech that might depress their ability to service their debt.
It’s a pyramid scheme, time is running out, but very few knows what time it is. Me included.
Well. First of all, that’s a pyramid scheme right there.
Second. My point is that focusing on the small, silly things, like how much they spend on coffee or what a tattoo costs isn’t valuable feedback to young people. The intention with pointing these things out is to put them down, not to help. That IS the intention.
What we should be doing is to SHARE our experience of the world; help the young:
This is basic stuff for a grown ass man or woman - not for a teenager. If a young person gets help figuring this out, they can afford lattes all day and it wont make a dent. We have an insane deficit of the right people throughout industries.
To me it is obvious this has not been happening for many young people, and by the time they’re 30 and figure it out themselves they’re a decade behind in debt and poor decisions. I can only imagine the rage of hearing someone blaming my coffee drinking habits as the culprit if I was in that situation.
With a son in college, I have some of the same concerns as other parents here - and as the younger people here who are disagreeing with how we see things. I’ve had conversations with other people who are parents within a 10 year range of my age. Lots of us older folks have had rough times growing up. I grew up poor enough that while I was a kid, the only “new” clothes I had were hand-me-downs from people at church and I remember days when I was in elementary school where I would ask my mom for something to eat and there literally wasn’t anything. I can tell stories about shoes that I wore until my feet literally came out of the end of them. Then . . . I went off to college and did pretty well with “poor parents” financial aid, but I left the state and had out of state tuition so that killed all that aid and it wasn’t enough to pay my tuition, for living expenses, and just basics like clothes and minimal makeup and medical bills (because who had health insurance when you were 18? Not me.). During the years before I became an older mom, I got a master degree and almost completed a doctorate and I’m still working on my doctorate from the School of Hard Knocks as I’m still paying off those post graduate loans. (I did good with the undergraduate ones by forcing the payments to be setup for 4 years and not 10 at the time.) I lived in the metro area outside of Washington DC and didn’t want roommates so I worked 2-3 jobs and 60-80 hrs a week for quite a while - even when I was in grad school.
Fast forward to having my son . . . I sure did not want him to have to grow up with all the hardships I had. So I did what many a Gen X’er did - I made sure my kid had a roof over his head, clothes on his back that fit him, plenty of food to eat, and medical care if he needed it. All things (except the roof over my head) that my parents definitely didn’t do for me. Well, I was blessed with a child who is very kindhearted and good to everyone he meets. Because of that. . . well, you can guess that he got a lot more than the basics. You could say he was spoiled because he’s been running a laptop since he was 2 years old. And by the time he was a teenager. . . he didn’t want to do anything except play video games. (But I remember that even while I had a job at that age, I lived in town and when I had any downtime I was watching cable TV on a color TV - and that was a big deal.) Playing those video games gave my son siblings that he doesn’t have naturally - so I saw that as a good thing. During Covid it also meant that he didn’t lose any of his interactions with his “family of choice.”
However. . . because my son didn’t struggle growing up like I did, he was not given a reason to have the drive to be creative or just to work himself to death to try to make money. There are other parents I’ve discussed this with and all of us are in the same boat - we created these kids because we didn’t want them to have to do “without.” By the time he learned to drive, I learned that I had to find out what motivated him - just like I do if I manage people under me or who work with me at my job. It can be hard. When he was about 14 I had him watch Mike Maloney’s series on Money - and I paid him to watch it because I knew it had lots of videos and animations and was something that would keep his attention. Then I talked to him a lot about what I was doing - including teaching him about budgeting.
My kid told me this week that at his university they are redesigning what is required to get a degree and graduate. There is some class they are considering requiring as a General Studies class called something like “How to be Democratic” for the students. My kid deals with crazy, woke methodology all the time and although he only has one more year after this year. . . I have told him I can see how we are getting to a point where getting a degree just isn’t worth it. Now. . . I can tell you that I put myself through college and paid for everything. My parents didn’t. I told my kid already in middle school that he had to figure out how he was paying for college if he went because no one paid for me and once he was 18 I didn’t have to pay for him. I have, of course, helped him but we ended up making a deal that if he could find a way to pay for his schooling without coming out with any student loans, then after graduation I’d buy him a new car. Well, that isn’t happening. However, I discovered that when he finds a job he really loves and excels at - he works as hard with as much dedication as I do. He’s working for the apartment complex he lives in and is selling my leases than anyone else there, making bonuses and using all his tech skills to streamline the office for the managers – and amazingly they actually show appreciation. But before he found this job. . . two things I noticed. One. . . there are companies that put out “help wanted” ads and signs , but NEVER hire anyone. I see people complain about this all the time in this region. Second, because of inflation and how much everything costs and all of us spending less and less on “luxuries” (including fast food, movies, pizza, etc.), there are fewer of those types of jobs that we had when I was young. On top of all of that. . . I feel like the fourth turning is a real thing. It doesn’t negate anything else, but I can see the difference in attitude – that we have created in our kids. It changes with each generation and now I am concerned for my kid and those in this generation because something is going to happen to really change their lives - and they are going to have it rough like the generations that lived through the Great Depression. I don’t know if it’s going to be war or financial devastation - but there’s going to be something. That’s why we are all here.
I’m all for my kid moving back home to save money, but I’ve always made it clear that if he’s not in school then he’s paying rent. I may decide to take that rent and put it away, but we will see. Maybe I’ll need that to survive and to be able to keep my house as I get older and reach retirement age.
So for all of us who complain about young people not doing what we think they should do as working adults. . . I think we need to look at ourselves and what part we have played in making them have the attitudes they have as well as creating a world where it’s harder and harder for young people to find work. I don’t think there is a perfect answer, but my dad always said that no matter how bad things get, if you are not picky and you are willing to work you will always find a job. You may not like it, but you can find one and if you have to muck out manure from a barn for a while - you do it until you can find something better. Having been poor growing up. . . I’m not afraid of being poor again, BUT I damned sure don’t want to end my life like that either. I admit I’m afraid of that happening and it’s part of the reason I’m here continuing to learn from everyone.
Keeping conflicts alive, means the real grift can continue and people won’t see that government IS the problem, inflation and false promises (socialism) keep the narrative churning.
So, at this point I am not seeing any ghost jobs around here. My plant has many jobs posted and is actually trying to fill them. We have offered $5000 signing bonus for electrician, mechanic, diesel mechanic and machinist trades. We have openings for various engineering positions. We even have openings for regular hourly positions.
the boy had 2 interviews so far and has a drug screen for one of the jobs tomorrow and 3rd interview as well. I figure when the drug screen comes back clean he will be offered the first job Monday. Then we will see if he can keep it. He tends to have a hard time getting up in the morning. He will eventually be on second shift but his first couple months of training are on days.
If he likes computers, then there’s tons of opportunities for him. There’s literally tons of trainings/certification paths that will put him in good paying jobs. Gaming is like solving puzzles. A lot of tech jobs are the same - the time it takes to get rewarded is just a little longer.
Here’s just an example of a world class cyber security training (as in way more valuable than any university degree): https://www.sans.org/
A certification can be completed in mere months and get him through the door for his first job and from there off to the races.
If any of those are of interest, the next step is to figure out what people are paying for that expertise. Many tech jobs have steep salary curve after the first job. Go to monster.com or similar for salary and location.
Edit: And find someone to talk to who works in an industry he’d like work in!!! No counselors or administrators - people who actually get paid to do the thing.
You are correct. I work in the tech industry and we talk about this all the time. However, his love is tech in theater and he is focused on being a lighting designer. Given that though . . . we do always discuss that because of his technical background (he graduated from H.S. with 16 certifications) and his experience working in the local volunteer theater since he was 8. . . and now working in a property management office. . . he has options. I’m not actually sure he needs a degree to even do the lighting design IF he could get connected with the right theater company. I have connections there also in NYC, but he doesn’t really want to work in a place like NYC. He is learning so much about electricity and networking and security . . . I feel like by the time he is done with his degree (or if he were to not complete it) that he has options where he will be able to get a job. I don’t think he has expectations of earning big bucks, but he could. He is a born leader and is empathetic as well. And so smart. It’s hard to admit your kid is smarter than you are when you’re a parent and you aren’t stupid. He just doesn’t have the life lessons yet - but he’s getting them.
What you are suggesting makes complete sense to me. I love to talk to younger people about what their options are once I know what they love and what they would like to do. I think Robert Kiyosaki does a great job of talking about how if you can’t find a job, if you are creative, you can create your own business. It doesn’t work for everyone, but it’s an option.
My point is that it is the small silly things that make or break. Self discipline, self control, delayed gratification, sacrifice, prioritizing, budgeting etc etc.
Decisions have consequences and lots of small decisions and their consequences add up and are not merely small and silly.
The values that are applied to these decisions making processes have changed, and therefore the results are changing.
Obesity does not happen because someone attends a buffet once. It’s the additive effect of daily decision making. Choosing a drive through combo instead of going home and making a tuna sandwich and a salad, or paring an apple or two, or reheating leftovers. The next day it’s a pizza instead of better options. Day in day out. Financial problems often come about on a similar fashion, and it’s no mystery that we have an obesity epidemic.
Interesting how all roads lead to self discipline.
Now, how to confer that to more people.
Old people complaining about the wasteful habits and irresponsibility of the youth isn’t really anything new. Pretty much every “in my day” example I’ve seen has seen the youth hit with a new obstacle the speaker didn’t face “in my day” that’s not really mentioned, though.
You didn’t need health insurance so did without? Were you fined for doing without? Was your employer penalized for not providing it, which indirectly comes out of your paycheck in the end without exception?
Were CAFE standards, etc. ratcheting up the overall complexity of vehicles, putting a lot out of the reach of maintenance by the layman, driving up the cost of repairs and likewise insurance? For that matter, wasn’t basic home maintenance more affordable back in the day before the hammer and anvil of increasing complexity and decreasing availability of skilled labor?
Was the housing market deliberately and continually goosed to always go up and to the right to the same degree? Was the financial fraud, etc. as flagrantly out in the open and rewarded?
Didn’t college education cost less and deliver more?
You want to gripe and state tautologies that were just as true and just as ignored today as they were for every generation that’s ever been, go for it. Doubt you’re really going to come across as anything but a clueless oldster for your intended audience, unless your intended audience are your peers who likewise just want to gripe about “kids these days”.
The easy to work on cars and homes are still available. Amazingly the foods that kept people healthy in days gone by are also still available. Used good are still obtainable, so are second hand clothes that are not name branded.
Yes there are added challenges and some expenses are not entirely optional. But throwing in the towel and blaming others is not the answer. Neither is continually adding to the debt for more and more programs.
I think there a national push to change zoning so there could be boarding houses, small starter homes and other affordable options once again.
Grew up very poor. We either went without things, or repaired, repurposed, modified, or built things we couldn’t afford to buy. I am a master dumpster diver because of that childhood. Most people see a broken broom, I see a hand brush, large paint brush, stick, hood prop, spacer, pry bar, stake, axle, spool holder, jack handle…etc. my younger boss grew up quite rich, but I’ve trained him by example, he’s pretty quick on the uptake. The new, usually young help we’ve gotten over the years only know “if it’s broken, discard and get a new one”.
I think an important thing to remember is the the USA is a big place and that conditions and circumstances vary greatly from one area to another.
The knowledge and social culture that is useful in one area might not be in another. The don’t look people in the eye and remain anonymous affect that is useful in crowded urban areas won’t get you far in a small rural town for example.
The economic and social challenges for young people of course vary from area to area. There is no simple one size fits all solution, and we should avoid looking at only parts of the elephant.
Education is an obvious part of the problem/ solution. I think decentralization is a vital part of the solution, regionally, and locally. Allowing school systems teach what is needed for their students to succeed with what and who they are used to be a thing. No we pretend all students are the same.
Minimum wages should be adjusted regionally or locally even, according to basic rent costs in an area. I would suggest that any two people working 40 hours weeks should be able to have a clean apartment ment utilities and reasonable transportation. No one on the USA is entitled to cheap restaurants food, car washes or groceries off the backs of fellow Americans who cannot afford to rent a place when working full time. This would over time balance the property values in those areas.
People flock to an area and raise property values due to a gradient of some kind, most often economic like cost of living or taxes or such. Rents go up, but entry wages do not. Tying starting wages to some sort of rent and housing cost algorithms would help.
The thread is just Boomer story time.
I think as people move towards the end of their life, they increasingly want to tell stories that justify the life that they led and the things that they did and the money they have. This thread is full of them. They are fascinating but add nothing. They don’t tell us anything about the current state of the world and people are sick of hearing it. The original “me me me” generation. It very much shows.
I was sharing my experiences as a millennial. I’m only 33, and I agree with a lot of what people like Preppy are saying about young people not wanting to go without. I also agree with a lot of it being cultural. Culturally, young people now think they have to have a newer car, new clothes, don’t know how to cook meals from stratch, etc, etc. Yes, it is WAY harder to get ahead now then it was for boomers, but just sitting around and complaining about that isn’t getting us anywhere. What you CAN do is learn to live on less, learn to make wise investments, and figure out how to hack the system. That’s what we need to do to be successful these days.
Heck, I’m still learning to go without. Recently I started intermittent fasting to improve my health and guess what, suddenly we’ve cut down the food we’re buying significantly. My husband decided to try it out too and who would have thunk it, he functions better that way as well. Neither of us are even loosing weight (good for him, bad for me, lol).
What I see in our cultural dialoque is a pendulum swinging and every other generation not being mentioned much because they come in at the bottom of the arc.
Boomers are mentioned alot, then Gen X not so much, Mellenials ( genY) feature heavily then Gen Z not as much, and Now we have Gen Alpha.
It used to be said that Money changes hands every third generation. I recall reading a book called the Millionaire next door decades back. It was written by some folks who studied the habits of people who were successful. The key take away was that some people make wealth and others make wealth and accumulate it. This came down to attitudes about work, and money as well spending habits and values.
In the book there were several side by side comparisons that showed how certain changes could impact ones wealth over time. It also discussed the different relationships to money depending on how one obtained it. Immigrants or other boot strappers would make money by hard work and entrepreneurialism, they would send kids to universities to become high paid professionals then the grand kids had benefits of both parents’ and grandparents wealth’, felt entitled to what that money allowed for, and typically were consumers and not accumulators leaving no inheritance.
Where do you see community building and social networks there? I see plenty of hard work sentiment. For some it ruined family as work came first, no time for even kids. for others it simply means no community building, only immediate family and “closeby” at that, who happen to be available. Thus those little princes and princesses, I see some of them use that privilege position to build social relations with that extra time they have not having to stress every second of waking hours how to survive next minute and next month.
This community part is plague in west… sure everyone wants to work, but many dont even have significant other now as all time and energy goes to work and building wealth possibly.
Of course I see decadent epstein style folks too abusing that privilege. It is natural, if one has wealth more than fair share, they want to share it to build social relations. Work and money doesnt have other than social status factor in that situation. So “consuming” is relative.. if it is over time building something, not decadence, it has value. Value is subjective.