Mooselick,+1 Seems we are living parallel lives. Into detail.
[quote=Travlin]
a broader viewpoint than survivalist forums. [/quote]
This way of living has nothing to do with survivalism. Neither with economy (perhaps only local) and it certainly cannot be defined in any class. It is just what it is: a way of living. Most of us just hate being told what to do.
Regards, DJ
Well, first you have to analyze the situation. Hence the discussion around “middle class” and affluence. Once we identify the trend we can decide what to do about it.As we see so clearly in the responses:
–It’s become harder and harder to maintain what my parents called a middle class lifestyle over the last 50 years. The US grew and prospered as wealth gravitated toward the middle. It’s been re-distrubuted towards the top again in the last 20 years and the results are not pretty. --Part of the problem is that we’ve moved the goal posts in the middle of the game and most players didn’t notice. As a society, we clearly spend more today on “cheap garbage” and borrow for useless luxeries. My grandparents thought that central heating, indoor plumbing, childred finishing high school, and a car that ran were middle class. Fresh oranges were a luxury. Now I hear complaints about the quality of fresh fruits and vegtables in Chigaco in Dec. Give me a break. No middle class mid-westerner expected fresh strawberrien in Dec in 1950.
So if two trends are causing the problems, then we need to work both fronts to reverse the decline - hence this discussion.
While your response will strike most in this forum as extreme, I will admit that I have a total collapse contingency plan that includes cultivating the Morman branch of the family and keeping friendship with the Amish family that bought the farm my ancesters homesteaded. (And yes, I do figure I could trade them protection for food - since they won’t shoot starving looters from the dying cities and I could.)
What’s wrong with Dennys? That’s why Lipitor and Zocor were invented.
Aside from that I’m sorta thinking that the current “middle class” mentality is largely responsible for triggering this mess. Not so sure I want to be numbered in that crowd.
Back to the gardens, the floricanes on our blackberries are so heavy with fruit they are almost on the ground - and that was after aggressive spring tip pruning and cutting last year’s canes back to the ground. Same with the currants.
[quote=darbikrash]And those held unaccountable to history spin yarns and prosthelytize their fiction.
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Isn’t that kind of like what you are doing?
[quote=Travlin]I understand what you’re saying, but keep in mind that CM.com has a broader viewpoint than survivalist forums. The first E is the economy, and the slow destruction of the middle class we are experiencing validates what Chris has been saying for years. This is the proof for people who need convincing. This deterioration of living standards for the backbone of the USA has become a very personal thing, and it is relevant to our understanding of what is happening and how things may develop.
Travlin
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I am not a survivalist. That is a label. If all the sudden the world becomes a brighter and happier place of infinite growth and cheap infinite resources, I will still be doing exactly what Im doing. Why? it is a good investment. It is rewarding on many personal levels. It is empowering. It is enriching. And it is the right thing to do regardless of what class you are in because the world changes - impermance is a fact of life.
Convincing and Deterioration of living standards: This is exactly what Im talking about. You arent in Kansas anymore, Dorothy. This is the "What Should I Do? section of this site. So, lets talk about what we should do:
1) Drop your ideas about living standards based on abundant energy, fiat money and a dumpster environment. Get over it. If you need convincing, do your own research - it is here. It is on all over the net. It is on the news. Walk up to anyone on the street and they will verify it for you.
2) Figure out what you need to be comfortable in a future with less energy, renewable energy, alternative methods of exchange and maintaining wealth and sustainable methods to heal the environment.
3) Get to work manifesting what you need to be comfortable.
Deterioration of living standards in the US being the backbone of the economy is an effect not a cause. The deterioration of natural resources, ingenuity, work ethic, trust in leadership, trust in currency and the US agricultural/mining/manufacturing base is relevant to our understanding of what is happening and how things may develop.
mooselick-
I think in regards to the term ‘class’ there may be a disparity between us in how some of us perceive the term. Perhaps its generational or regional… for me (Gen-X growing up in both urban and rural Alaska) it’s simply meant a measure of economic ability and resources. I imagine some see the term as a social ranking or status symbol, but I very seldom see that (I’m guessing your experience and what you see may be different). I don’t have much use for labels either, but from my perspective this label is just a statistical yardstick more often used in describing economic trends and opportunities in society as a whole. Or as the editor put it, a way to describe financial self-sufficiency. The damage done by labels is more a matter of degree, overuse, and intent behind the label rather than their simple existence .
I entirely agree with you on the need to re-align expectations for whatever it means to be ‘middle class’, ‘doing well’, or whatever it’s going to be called in the post-3E’s future. We need to look at what the past and current expectations are and see what can or should be kept, which are unrealistic and need to be changed or eliminated, and what might need to be added. I personally expect the expectations regarding retirement, healthcare, travel, discretionary income, and household living arrangements are going to see the biggest changes.
I’m originally from rural Pennsylvania. My paternal grandfather ran a general store until the Depression hit, and it folded due to people being unable to pay back their credit with the store. He started rasing chickens since he figured people would need cheap protien. When things got slightly better he bcame a rural letter carrier.
In any town, a man who ran a general store OR was a sucessful farmer OR was a postman was cosidered “middle class” - only sharecroppers or day laborers or certain factory workers were considered “poor”. And my grandparents had a modest woodframe home, a coal furnace (this is PA; they had local coal), a large vegetable plot, and a hunting rifle. I remember grandpa going out to get a pheasant for dinner, and a freezer full of deer meat he’d dressed himself. Grandma gardened and canned. She repaired things and made them last. They made it themselves, paid cash, bartered or did without.
My maternal grandparents–also in rural PA near Pittsburgh–were better educated and did not hunt and can. They were an engineer and a teacher. He was with Westinghouse but was blackballed for helping unionize a dangerous plant and died soon after from sucessive heart attacks (hear trouble runs in the family, sadly). His wife and older sons took in an elderly aunt who had enough money to help them get through the rationing and poverty of the Depression. They also lived in a very modest home and made things themselves, paid cash, or did without. They were big on community through their local church and eased the pain of a lower standard of living by helping others.
In anyone’s estimation, a degreed engineer and a degreed teacher were solidly middle class, yet they did not eat out except at church suppers. Like my paternal grandparents, the family only had one older car that they worked on themselves. Vacations were visits to relatives for both families, with an occasional day trip to Pittsburgh for things like a museum or a circus or a trip to an ice cream parlor. (I still recall the midnight ride on a baby elephant when Ringliing Brothers was unloading their circus train!) So I read the earler so-called description of middle class and said, “Sez who?”
I categorically reject the definition of “middle class” at the start of this thread. But then, I rejected my compatriot’s definitions of sucess and fiscal responisbility a long time ago. I was taught to only take out a loan for three things in life: to buy a house that was basic shelter (only when I could afford it! rent until I could afford it!), to buy a “basic transportation” car to get to a job if needed (I’ve commuted on a bicycle as much as 10 miles each way), and to get credentials (if required) or tools to make money. That’s it. I’ve watched the madness of our society telling us we needed more, more of everything that makes us work ourselves to death as slaves to credit card companies and mortgages that are far beyind our means. I don’t need a nice dinner out every week (and not at Denny’s) - my grandparents and parents MAYBE went out to eat on anniversaries and nowadays my idea of a date is to go out with my sweetheart for an ice cream at McDonalds - I would rather eat my own cooking and spend my money on my garden.
I don’t NEED vacations 1,000 miles away or more to feel as if I am a member of the so-called Middle Class. Those are wastes of time and money, and I say this as someone who worked for American Airlines for five years (flight benefits: $200 round-trip ticket to Africa, anyone?) I was at a convention in San Jose two summers ago and in NY this year. Those trips were for my career and my family. Dad was a teacher and mom was a chemist, but the first time ever went to Disneyworld or Disneyland I was 50. I could have lived without it but one of my kids now lived nearby, so why not go to Epcot for a day?
So am I middle class according to the arbitrary defintion Poet quoted? Proabably not to some: even though I am a degreed engineer and my husband has 32 years doing techincal work with a Fortune 50 Company and clients that are lining up to hire him as a consultant when he retires. Do we save 15% of our income? That depends on your definition of “save” - I consider our sustainable lifestyle investments and our investments in our children as savings for our old age. We can some of our home-grown food and use solar hot water and a clothesline, and have a well (which just tested potable, yay!) I invested in an airtight woodburning stove, a grain grinder, outdoor cooking facilities (a must in the deep south) and we are about to buy a treadle sewing machine.
One thing I do know. The “middle class” in the next 20 years will look very different than the “middle class” for during the last 20 years.
However if being “middle class” means not living paycheck to paycheck unless you have cheap credit…many of us are gonna be scr*wed.
All I can think of is Ferfal’s blog and how the reasonably comfortable became the destitute. When the fiat money collapses, will you have a way to make a difference? Either we weather the storm or we do not, but lets; do what we can to up the odds that we will? Something as simple as a clothesline instead of a dryer can makew a difference. Something as easy as planting a fruit tree adds to the positive momentum. Bulding relationships with neightbors, learning what wild plantsa are edible, making sure you have access to fresh water and a sanitary way to deal with human waste are essential skills.
Sorry, I disagree. My three year old came down with a perforated bowel and peritonitis and LIVED. Also, my first childbirth was three days of labor followed by a C-section. My sister-in-law actually died on the table during labor - her husband was told she was dead and they were going to take her away to try to save the baby - and they saved them both. I am a very abstemious user of Big Medicine, but when you need it it is a MIRACLE. Women don’t die in childbirth. Infants don’t die from every little bug that passes by. If only 5% of us are alive today we touch 20 people in our immediate families.
Do not discount the worth of Big Medicine. It’s worth every penny we pay. Which is why, of course, we pay it.
Think you’re going to enjoy our next WSID post :)
Just curious. How does a 3 year old come down with a perforated bowel?
Also, what was the cause of the prolonged labor? Were you using midwife services?
Mooselick7, Safewrite, et al.
I think for me, this is really more about whether a person or family has the financial resources to enjoy all the things that constitute what are perceived to be typical and expected of a middle class American family lifestyle over the past few decades. Maybe they don’t eat out because they use the savings for band camp for the kids. Maybe a family doesn’t take vacations for a week, once per year, but they enjoy their Harley rides on the weekends. Maybe they don’t save for their kids’ college, but they sock away 20% to 25% of income for an early retirement. For those who are solidly and indisputably in the middle class, they can afford it if they want. That’s my point.
But not everyone can afford it all, obviously. Many are slipping. And that was what I was trying to point out.
Though most people do not meet all of the above criteria - and that includes a lot of us, including me - they are able to get some or most of the “criteria” (or at least are able to meet a good number of personal financial self-sufficiency goals), by choosing wisely on how to spend their precious resources.
Maybe they don’t eat out often and when they do, they limit it to Denny’s or a church supper. (By the way, I have several co-workers who eat out at every lunch, typically spending $7 per meal. Heck, I used to do that! Shame on me! But note that the median income in my county is $71,601 per household, and $81,260 per family. It was nice for a while when my wife were DINKs.) Or they don’t save for a middle class lifestyle in retirement (they plan on being healthy and working into old age, or cashing in the gold they bought at $300 per ounce). Or maybe they don’t save for their kids’ college education but have lined up practical apprenticeships with friends who are plumbers or carpenters or electricians. Or maybe they will depend on Social Security, or have credit card and debt that will eventually overwhelm them, or they take 20 years to pay off their student loans, and plan on always rent, etc.
But for many in the so-called middle class (whether by the criteria I listed or by other criteria), they are but an illness or divorce away from dropping out. The lecture Elizabeth Warren gave (click here for Youtube video link) really tells how fragile a middle class family existence is.
As Adam (or another CM staffer wrote: “…it a useful exercise for the CM.com community to engage in. How realistic is the dream of financial self-sufficiency for today’s society?”
Isn’t that why we need to prioritize what’s most important to us and prepare for the coming hard times? Isn’t the reason we are on this web site and community is because we care about preserving what we can (yes, pun intended) for the years ahead, about building resiliency?
P.S. - I am so glad this thread has generated so much thought, even if we don’t all agree. I appreciate your contributions, here and elsewhere. Makes me think, broadens my mind. Thank you.
Poet
Poet -
It was i who wrote that intro. And I think the ensuing discussion here has been as hoped: enlightening and (which I appreciate greatly) respectful. I’m glad we elevated this post from the forums. Thank you for creating it.
In a few hours, I’m going to post our next What Should I Do? article, written by FerFAL. Think the American middle class is having it rough? Wait until you learn what the Argentinians have been living through since their hyperinflationary collapse in 2001.
Many of the same warning signs that led up to that crisis are blinking brightly on our national dashboad today, serving as sobering reminders that having time to build resiliency now while our systems still function smoothly is a gift not to be squandered.
[quote=Adam]Poet -
It was i who wrote that intro. And I think the ensuing discussion here has been as hoped: enlightening and (which I appreciate greatly) respectful. I’m glad we elevated this post from the forums. Thank you for creating it.
In a few hours, I’m going to post our next What Should I Do? article, written by FerFAL. Think the American middle class is having it rough? Wait until you learn what the Argentinians have been living through since their hyperinflationary collapse in 2001.
Many of the same warning signs that led up to that crisis are blinking brightly on our national dashboad today, serving as sobering reminders that having time to build resiliency now while our systems still function smoothly is a gift not be squandered.
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Adam
Thank you for elevating it!
Oh, wow! You got Fernando “FerFAL” Aguirre to contribute! Awesomeness! I’ve long been a fan of his practical (urban) Argentinian survival blog. Can’t wait!
Poet
[quote=Poet]
Oh, wow! You got Fernando “FerFAL” Aguirre to contribute! Awesomeness! I’ve long been a fan of his practical (urban) Argentinian survival blog. Can’t wait!
Poet [/quote]
+10!! That’s great, Adam!!!
[quote=Adam]
Many of the same warning signs that led up to that crisis [in Argentina] are blinking brightly on our national dashboad today, serving as sobering reminders that having time to build resiliency now while our systems still function smoothly is a gift not be squandered. [/quote]
+100!
[quote=Poet]
Oh, wow! You got Fernando “FerFAL” Aguirre to contribute! Awesomeness! I’ve long been a fan of his practical (urban) Argentinian survival blog. Can’t wait!
Poet [/quote]
+10!! That’s great, Adam!!!
[quote=Adam]
Many of the same warning signs that led up to that crisis [in Argentina] are blinking brightly on our national dashboad today, serving as sobering reminders that having time to build resiliency now while our systems still function smoothly is a gift not be squandered. [/quote]
+1000!
Now, Ferfal is a fella geared to the “What should I do?” theme. I will look forward to it!
I took the child to Disney World and he caught some exotic bug that ate holes in his small intestine.I most definitely had a midwife and we tried natural childbirth until it was on the verge of killing me. Childbirth used to kill a LOT of women, but I think people forget that or write it out of their narratives or something. Quite often the “natural” method = “dead”.
This is the thing that bothers me most about when people talk about sustainability. They are editing away the benefits of Big Medicine. Yes, I floss my teeth and exercise and eat nutritiously and play outside. Doesn’t mean I don’t die in childbirth or our children don’t die of things that can be cured with 10 days on a PIC line while the ileus heals. (Gut wounds kill slowly.)
[quote=wmarsden]First off, where I’m coming from: my husband and I are both professionals with advanced degrees and are earnings are in the top 20% of income in the U.S., so I’d say we’re a few steps above middle class.
That said, I significantly disagree that “eating at a nice restaurant” once a week is a middle class behavior. I think that’s an astonishing luxury not at all what I recall from my upbringing in the middle class.
Furthermore, you also threw in their the astonishing luxury of not dying from cancer. Seriously, you think that’s a standard of middle class living through-out history? On the contrary, we are now paying something like 20% of our wealth for health care which has become shockingly effective at keeping us from dying. Each of us decides every day that we’d like to pay for health care expenditures that are equivalent elements of our budgets to food or housing, for the same reason we pay 20% of our budgets towards housing: there just isn’t any other good or services we value as highly as health care.
But the average spending per American is well over $4K/year on health care now. Do NOT make the mistake that this is a middle class right. This is an enormous, absolutely UNBELIEAVABLE benefit to us, equivalent of moving out of a cave into Levittown.
– Wendy
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Wendy,
What the hell is your advanced degree in? At least 2 word usage errors in those 4 paragraphs!! Posers trying to get noticed or what? Seriously, if you can’t use good grammer and spelling, don’t tell me you have advanced degrees unless they are from Diploma Mill State
[Moderator’s note: This post is a violation of our forum guidelines. It is an ad hominem attack that does not pass the dinner table test. Users are expected not to abuse the privelege of anonymity to say things that would not be said in person. Corrective action with the user has been undertaken.]
I think it’s MARVELOUS that bankruptcies are mostly associated with unexpected catastrophes. Isn’t that what bankruptcy is supposed to be for? It’s a fresh start. I’m not troubled by bankruptcy being caused by illness or job loss of unexpected family break-up. It strikes me that bankruptcy is the SOLUTION. What would she prefer, debtors prison?Then she gets kind of indignant because people who do not have any of these things befall them do not stay in the middle class, they advance to be more like the wealthy. Uh, is this BAD? As someone else pointed out, middle class was ALWAYS the transition area between failure (marrying a drunk, becoming widowed, losing the farm) and success.
I am wondering where in history exists the stable middle class that was NOT affected by illness, death or professional failure.