http://www.shattergard.com/home.html
Anybody have any experience with protective window film?
I’ve never been a fan of guns and have neve shot one but I am thinking about getting at least one. One for hunting, one for self defense. But I’d also bring up the topic of bear mace. This allows for lives to be saved in cases of accidental firings, and you don’t have to be so accurate as with a gun. You just spray it in a room and believe me that person won’t be doing anything naughty for a while. And they will be incapacitated until police arrive. But you will be in great pain too after you use it so you might want to have a gas mask sitting handily beside the cannister. If you have kids or others in the vicinity this will of course make it more complicated.
Interesting suggestion, Mark_BC; thanks. Your points about the additional consequences -the sprayer also being affected, and concern about children- are duly noted and appreciated.So where does one go to get bear mace…a camping store or army & navy store?
Protective window film (if you take the company’s claims at face value) can be an effective layer of home defense, but it has no deterrent effect because burglars/home invaders can’t see it. The fact it’s invisible is one of its assets though when it comes to the appearance of your home esthetically (compared to ugly bars). The price is high enough to be in the same category as bars. Then you have the issue of what to do after an unsuccessful burglary attempt which has caused the filmed window to be shattered but still in place. Do you replace it (expensive) or not (ugly, free, and still has most of its security value left)? With bars you don’t usually have an attempt, but even if a malicious person breaks your glass to spite you for keeping him out, the glass repair is routine and not terribly expensive. The highest level films are advertised to help stop flying debris in high winds/tornadoes and some handgun rounds, if you think you might need that. I think of the product as a niche application. For instance, how about film on your 1st floor front windows and bars around back where no one can see them? Or how about film on the glass on the sidelights next to your front door? On the other hand bars can be installed on the INSIDE of your windows (and hinged, for fire safety) where they are not so ugly.
Bear spray is basically OC pepper spray in a large “party size” which fogs an area instead of squirting a stream. Range is advertised as about 35 feet compared to 7-12 feet with human OC spray. These are not indoor weapons as you are guaranteed cross contamination (you will suffer the effects as much as your target). This is even more the case with bear spray than antihuman stream because it’s a fog and has a greater range. The interior of your house will be unusable for 30-60 minutes. I would not want to be in my house nearly blind and coughing heavily with criminals in the same shape. What if there is an accomplice outside who hears the commotion and comes in to back up his partner and is only 1/2 as affected as you two are? (I hear bear spray works great outside on bears, but even so I’d keep carrying my .44 magnum as a back up just in case.) Only rookie cops use OC spray indoors, by the way, and only once! Veteran cops disagree on its effectiveness on the street. Some refuse to carry or use it anymore after seeing it fail to stop suspects. I have seen it work as advertised more often than not, so I carry mine. You have to get close and you have to get a direct hit in the face for it to work (both are usually difficult, and sometimes impossible). You MUST have a backup plan for when it doesn’t work and the suspect continues to attack. What would your back up plan be in your living room if the burglar/home invader continues or intensifies his attack while both of you are suffering the effects? You can get bear spray in many places such as thehomesecuritysuperstore.com, but only bother if you’re hiking in bear territory or have them around your neighborhood. On the other hand, I’ve seen advertisements for burglar bombs filled with OC spray that are designed to be tripped by a burglar entering your house. Amusing, but maybe somewhat effective (maybe not). Of course, you are guaranteed to eventually get bombed by your own trap when you forget to deactivate it. I occasionally forget my burglar alarm is activated and step into an area protected by motion detectors. I get the warning chirps and have to go turn it off. No big deal. With an OC burglar bomb you’ll get a snoot full of pepper spray and have your house contaminated for an hour even with good ventilation trying to get it out. If you catch that on home video, please share it here!
Yes THC you’d have to know what you are doing with bear spray. I’d only use it if I had already donned a gas mask, and this should be tested to ensure it does actually keep it out of your lungs. Bear spray will stop a charging moose or elephant in its tracks, if it is released in a room with a burglar you can be 100% guaranteed that person will be incapacitated. The important thing is to ensure that you aren’t as well.
I’d never use a gun against a bear, they rarely stop them in their tracks, just aggravates them and you have to have good aim. With bear spray there is much more latitude. You may spray yourself as well but the bear won’t be bothering you at least (bears have some of the most sensitive noses in the world which makes them particularly vulnerable to pepper spray). Actually, with bears, the best defense is the confidence you get form having a weapon against it, since you (should) show no fear and will come off as the aggressor rather than the prey, and the bear picks up on this and submits.
The language here is getting non-specific, and is broadening our focus.
Mark_BC, you said:
Can you substantiate this statement?
This sounds like marketing to me, as there is absolutely zero fail-safe methods of “stopping” anything in it’s tracks 100% of the time with anything. If it cannot be substantiated, you need to ask yourself this:
Do burning eyes and leaky sinuses mean someone cannot grab and pummel you?
I know there have to be a significant number of veterans and LEO’s who have been maced and forced to clinch just to prove it can be done, and familiarize themselves with the tools of their trade.
Not to be rude, but Bear Spray and a Gas mask is not a combination to stake your life on.
The intended purpose of any “spray” weapon is to incapacitate a suspect so they can be detained. Once you’ve decided to take the “pepper spray” route, you need to consider the implications of using it in your home, consider that many who would break into your home have been maced before and probably have a higher tolerance, and if they are incapacitated, you need to know how to properly restrain them until authorities arrive.
This carries ovious risks in the best of times - let alone the post-collapse society, where there might simply be no authorities capable of responding.
Once you’ve unleashed the stream of pepper spray, it has reached it’s “maximum effectiveness”, for the most part - Unlike bullets.
With each additional spray, the burning will protract.
With each additional bullet, the damage compounds.
Using bear spray on people (or even bears) shows a lack of planning, which is what this article is all about!
The line of logic that “guns” don’t work on “bears” is dismissive and counterproductive - while I know that’s not our topic, I think this same line of logic is being applied to the threads “meat and potatos”, so I’m going to address it.
“Guns” generally come in 3 basic forms:
- Rifles
- Shotguns
- Pistols
Bears come in several forms as well; Black, grizzly/Kodiak, Brown, Polar, Panda (EtC) - each of which has their own physiology that’s unique to their species.
So, to say a pistol isn’t likely to work on a Kodiak is a “fair” statement. To say a rifle wouldn’t is crazy talk, as Grizzlies are taken often with rifles.
What we need to do is highlight our needs by identifying realistic threats, then define the skillset required to mitigate that threat. Finally, we discuss tools.
Bottom line, plan your defenses around being a “hard” target, and keep the reactionary use of violence up your sleeve at all times.
Cheers,
Aaron
I’ll respond to this here, instead of DFT, because I just looked at one of these pistols last week for my father, 83 y.o., in FL, for his first gun. IMHO, it is a bad choice. It is very light, with considerable recoil, and the store owner said it was not fun to shoot. The ammo is also expensive and you’d be unlikely to throw more than a few rounds down range learning to use it without feeling pummeled and broke. I have a .380 Walther PPK/S with Pachmayr grips that still has a pronounced recoil and is not for newbie use, again JMHO.I would suggest anyone purchasing this to try before you buy.
CS
The whole idea behind bear spray (and pepper spray) is to incapacitate or distract an attacking animal or person long enough for you to leave the area. Since we’re talking home security here, if you’re at home it is very probable that you have nowhere to run to, so incapacitating an attacker for maybe a minute or two may only be of marginal benefit (and like Aaron said even that is not a certainty). IMO it would be best to focus more on measures to keep them out entirely, or failing that, measures that permanently incapacitate an intruder. Pepper (or bear) spray seems more appropriate for situations outside of the home than for home defense.
- Nickbert
There is a big difference between those personal cannisters of squirting mace, versus bear spray. I can’t reference right now a link to prove that bear spray will stop a charging elephant but I remember reading an account of someone using it against a charging male moose, which can be very aggressive.
Someone who has inhaled bear spray will not be able to grab and pummel anything, they will be completely incapacitated, for at least an hour. Bear spray is orders of magnitude stronger than the personal mace that squirts, and because it is in a spray, one breath of it will be enough (especially in a confined room). The tricky part is to ensure that you do not also inhale it. If you have kids, it might not be a good idea. I don’t and I’ll consider using it. I’d rather not risk killing someone.
It will be easy to deal with someone who has been bear maced because they won’t have any idea what is going on, they will be blind and choking, helpless for at least an hour. Again, just make sure you aren’t as well.
When I’m in grizzly country I don’t rely on a gun, only bear spray, but first and foremost my brain. I have heard of people unloading six bullets on a charging bear before it comes down.
Mark,
If you’ve heard of people putting six bullets into the charging bear before it goes down, I’d suggest the outcome was successful.
You’re continuing to use unsubstantiated claims:
[quote]Someone who has inhaled bear spray will not be able to grab and pummel anything, they will be completely incapacitated, for at least an hour[/quote]
These are some strongly worded, and extremely dubious assertions, to which I see absolutely zero credible sources referenced as support.
I’ve been gassed a couple times, and while it wasn’t bear spray, the effects lasted about 15 minutes, and I was anything but incapacitated - which means incapable of meanful activity. I could have grabbed onto someone and struck them, stabbed them, or used a firearm to kill them in that condition. It’d have been easier for them to defend themselves, perhaps, but I find it difficult to believe that Bear spray is “orders of magnitude” more effective - and if the numbers represent this, I wouldn’t believe that there isn’t a point of diminished returns.
Your preference to “rather not risk killing someone” by using bear spray is like suggesting you’d rather not run down a car-jacker so you’ll drive a Vespa.
It’s not logical, and solves none of your perceived problems.
I’m not simply pushing for weapons here - so please, don’t misunderstand. What I’m hoping will come of this is a greater understanding that you, as a person who’s probably not been gassed, are over-estimating the potency of CS/Pepper Spray/Bear Spray.
It burns, it sucks, it forces compliance in a Law Enforcement environment, but it has no place in life or death conflict on the streets, and even less of a place inside your home, which is what we’re discussing.
Further considerations should be given to the shelf life of pepper spray/bear spray, which is significantly less than a bullet. If we enter a protracted state of decline, how will you replace the spray once it’s passed the expiration date?
If some do not expire, how many uses could you possibly get out of one container?
What conditions for storage must be met?
While some find it unsavory to consider having to shoot someone, I find it infinitely less tolerable to be made a victim myself, for lack of preparation.
Cheers,
Aaron
thc0655, Aaron and Nickbert, thanks for taking the time to write your informative posts about bear spray. I see your points, and appreciate you all taking the time to make them.
Hi Mark-BC. You may be right; that was the idea that attracted me (even knowing it would do the same to the rest of us inside as well). But given the others’ comments that they thought this was a risky and unsafe assumption, I just can’t see taking the risk.
When they said the spray might not be enough to truly incapacitate the intruder, that was what really made me less enthused about the idea. I remembered when I got charged by the 2 big dogs and pepper sprayed them, how suprised I was Ithat it didn’t take them right down,. I’d really believed it would. So I see the others’ points about not wanting to find yourself in that kind of a situation -with an intruder not incapacitated as you’d anticipated- when you and your families’ lives may be at stake.
Now if my gun permit would only come through sooner rather than later…
Mark,
I never heard of a bear, moose, or elephant taking PCP. People do. And people are MUCH more dangerous than bears. Bears don’t necessarily know what a firearm means. Humans do. In bear country, I’d use bear spray backed up by a firearm. In human country, forget the bearspray. Also I’d bet on the criminal recovering from the effects of the bearspray before most of their victims. Many criminals are more habituated to pain than the average citizen, often from the background that made them a criminal or from being “hardened” in a criminal environment.
When I married him two year ago my wonderful, naive husband had a paid off home with no working locks on the front and back doors.
eyes roll toward the heavens Oh good grief.
As the illustration says, unlocked doors are the biggest point of entry. We now have new steel front and back doors with keyed-alike deadbolts and keys (and a fish-eye peephole on the desk in front of me, going in this weekend). Everyone in the family now has a key and at least locks it when we all leave. After leaving the home unlocked for nealy 30 years that was a hard habit to get my step-daugher into!
We’re installing a fence around the property at the moment. It’s a 4-ft chainlink, not serious protection, and mainly to enclose my large garden and protect it from stray dogs wandering in, but I like to think it will also very clearly define who is a trespasser. FWIW the local laws say you can shoot someone coming toward your property or on it, but not if the perp is running away. (Hubby gave me his grandmother’s antique pistol as a wedding gift but the damned thing shoots 32 non-auto ammo & try finding THAT. We now have an Ithica shotgun and all know how to use it thanks to the extended family’s practice range on a local farm.)
But…the windows. Sigh Our stupid windows are still all locked and painted shut so they are next. I wanted to replace them with new vinyl, double-paned windows and screens for ventillation purposes. Up until reading this article I had not thought about security issues with windows other than to plant thorn bushes under them and make sure they locked.
Any suggestions as to what kind of windows to get?
I’ve seen the discussion here range from guns, locks, & lighting to even bear spray, but nothing about dogs in the security equation. It would seem that, although they may not be suitable for everybody, having a dog could be a great benefit. Not just big, vicious “chew 'em up” type dogs, but even a little yapper that could sound the alarm when a bad guy comes a callin’. Anybody considering having some canine allies to help out?
earthwise,
Quote from my post on the Enrolled Members Forum on “SHTF … sailboat”, #1:
“With regards to the occupants of your residence, think several dogs, trained not only as guard dogs but also to refuse any food given by strangers (if you happen to be gone from the house). Heck, you can even put Kevlar vests and protective collars on them to give them a fighting chance if the threat level increases. They’ll create enough warning noise, deterrence threat, and if need be, attack capability, to slow down a group of attackers enough for you or other family members to grab a weapon and/or even don body armor.”
Safewrite is considering new windows and wondering about their security issues. IMO, the energy issues are more important than their role in the security of the house. I’d say get good double pane windows and use the locks religiously (as you are now doing with your new doors). If you’re going to leave them open for ventilation (while home or away) rig them so they can only be opened 2-4". Many new windows have little tabs you can deploy to make this possible, but even if the ones you choose don’t there are several ways to retrofit them yourself quite easily. When we first moved to Philadelphia, two times in one week someone saw our first floor front window open about 2" and tried to lift it up to climb in (this with the window 15 feet from a busy street in broad daylight). I had a chain holding the window from opening more than 4". The burglar gave up and didn’t bother breaking the window. And before I’d put bars up over the windows or security film on them I’d get a monitored alarm. Windows will always be a weak point, but an alarm should catch the burglars as they’re entering (if the window has a sensor) or seconds after they’re inside (if the area is covered by a motion sensor). Your fence is a good idea on many levels including the one you mentioned but I didn’t in my post. A person who is on the inside of your fence (no matter how feeble it is) is automatically suspicious before you see them doing or saying anything else. According to many local laws he’s already committed the minor offense of trespassing. This allows you to start thinking defensively and taking appropriate defensive actions. If violence ensues your legal foundation is much stronger from the get-go – he’s on your fenced property after all. The same goes for a window the burglar or home invader breaks to get in while you’re there – he’s already used force, committed a felony and tipped you off to prepare to defend yourself. I like where your head’s at. Good luck with the family!
Earthwise is considering the home security value of dogs. I don’t have anything against dogs, but many people overestimate their value in defending your home. First, I embedded that first video (above) of the two burglars breaking in where there were two dogs just for this reason. The resident had a little yapper (that didn’t yap) and a golden retriever who was as sweet (to the burglars) as golden’s are known to be! Sometimes they don’t put up the fuss you want (much less attack). Second, some burglars are deterred by dogs, but some aren’t. (And home invaders are definitely NOT deterred by dogs since they’re armed and willing to kill YOU, they will just as quickly kill your dogs. Home invaders take their cue from police when entering a drug house that’s known to have truly vicious guard dogs: the first officer in the door has a shotgun loaded with 00 buckshot and is the designated dog-stopper.) Third, dogs don’t call the police when an unauthorized entry is made, or when a fire starts inside. Fourth, dogs can be expensive, more so than many people think who don’t keep a log of the expenses. When my professional, single woman neighbor moved in about 7 years ago I urged her to get an alarm. In the end she said it was too expensive and got a German shepherd mix instead. I KNOW he has cost her more than an alarm would have in food, vet bills, and home repairs. And sometimes when I come home from work after midnight I see her out walking him, by herself, unarmed. My alarm system never keeps me company, but I don’t have to walk it twice a day and board it somewhere when I go on vacation. All that being said, I think dogs are a plus in your layered home defense system. Just be realistic.
We have double pane windows in our sun room. I dont see how one could really benefit from the shatter resistant plastic films noted here - unless one was resigned to the outer pane getting trashed and the inner pane providing extra security/time during a burglery or home invasion. We may have to replace some windows around the house with our upcoming house renovation. Would anyone recommend shatter resistant glass vs the energy savings of double/triple paned glass?Anyone have any further thoughts? Love to hear them.
The question is how far are you willing to go to protect your family and yourself from predators? How do you balance the potential loss of their lives against a desire not to respond with violence when attacked? Only you can decide. I found the following remark at another website. It is worth pondering.
Travlin
[quote=Travlin]The question is how far are you willing to go to protect your family and yourself from predators? How do you balance the potential loss of their lives against a desire not to respond with violence when attacked? Only you can decide. I found the following remark at another website. It is worth pondering.
Travlin
[/quote]
Nail struck squarely on head.
I grew up with shot guns and rifles in the house. No big thing… they were for hunting… we were taught how to use them… not to even touch one unless you knew where the safety was and that it was on. Everyone I knew in our community took gun safety courses… it was all just a given.
Seems like a different world out there today and getting worse every minute.
My husband in an avid hunter… meat on the table. I don’t hunt, but will be spending the summer making time for target practice and refreshing my knowledge and weapons skills.
I have nightmares about this poor family-- the Petit’s. I echo the sentiments of those who say, “I don’t want to ever have to shoot and kill someone,” but neither do I want to put myself or our children at risk because I didn’t want to consider the possible alternative.
Links to Petit murders:
http://www.people.com/people/article/0,20425841,00.html
http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/p/petit_family/index.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20017372-504083.html
Faced with folks like these, I will aim to put a hole through them and have no regrets.
That said, and I know I am preaching to the choir here, but never keep weapons or ammo where children have any chance of getting ahold of them.
We had a case in the past year of a 5-year-old boy killing is younger brother with a leatherman tool. A beautiful family, husband is a fireman, wife is a nurse… boys just horsing around, getting ahold of something they shouldn’t, and a tragic accident.
Be safe all.