Fukushima Update: A Very Bad Situation

News & Current Events Public News & Current Events
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[quote=Dogs_In_A_Pile]rfischer -
It’s hard to lend much creedence to a clip that leads with Sean Connery in a red spandex singlet…I will now pour bleach into my mind’s eye.
All that aside, without access to the source data we really don’t know what we are looking at.  I highly doubt the accuracy of the claims and the validity of the information being presented. 
[/quote]
Now that is a horrible flashback.
At one of my former workplaces, the punishment for leaving your computer un-screenlocked while away from your desk was, among other things, that very same Zardoz pic with Sean Connery in his horrifying bikini was now your new computer background.
I worked with some sick people.

  • Nickbert
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[quote=Poet]Nickbert
Congratulations on your upcoming bundle of joy!
[/quote]
Thanks!
I haven’t even thought about the possibility of contamination in vitamins, prenatal or otherwise.  I’ll give those a look… who knows, maybe these vitamins my wife can consistently keep down
Does anyone have any ideas about what kinds of vitamins or supplements (herbal or otherwise) are sourced in or around Japan?  With a lot of focus being on food I think this is something easily overlooked (at least it was for me).

  • Nickbert
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This is a bit off topic, but since this event I have been worrying more about the bone scan I had a couple years ago. I had nerve entrapment in my pelvis which was causing pain and paralysis down my leg and the doctors were all freaking out thinking that it was cancer in my spine, and made me do pushes and pulls on my leg to assess it, despite my vigorous opposition. This of course was tearing my nerve apart making it even worse which caused a horrible downward spiral where I was immobile for almost a year. Finally in the end I diagnosed the problem myself as nerve entrapment, even though the doctors would not listen to me and I doubt they ever did believe it, I just walked away from them when it healed (all I had to do was stretch my hamstrings).
Anyways, sorry for the medical drama here, but I think the bone scan was 5 milliseiverts, of Technecium 99, and also a chest CT scan. They say that statistically there is little chance of developing cancer from this but I now am beginning to seriously doubt authority.

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[quote=Mark_BC]This is a bit off topic, but since this event I have been worrying more about the bone scan I had a couple years ago. I had nerve entrapment in my pelvis which was causing pain and paralysis down my leg and the doctors were all freaking out thinking that it was cancer in my spine, and made me do pushes and pulls on my leg to assess it, despite my vigorous opposition. This of course was tearing my nerve apart making it even worse which caused a horrible downward spiral where I was immobile for almost a year. Finally in the end I diagnosed the problem myself as nerve entrapment, even though the doctors would not listen to me and I doubt they ever did believe it, I just walked away from them when it healed (all I had to do was stretch my hamstrings).
Anyways, sorry for the medical drama here, but I think the bone scan was 5 milliseiverts, of Technecium 99, and also a chest CT scan. They say that statistically there is little chance of developing cancer from this but I now am beginning to seriously doubt authority.
[/quote]

Mark -
With all the hype and incorrect information swirling around out there your concern is understood and there’s no need to apologize. You can rest easy Mark. While you can never say the chance of getting cancer from radiation exposure is zero, the chances of you developing cancer as a result of your bone scan is extremely low. Certainly not enough to worry about IMO.
Tc-99 has a short half life of 6 hours so even if you didn’t pass it through urination it will essentially be gone after 5 half lives or a little over 30 hours. But since you do pass it, the biological half life is even shorter. Tc-99 is typically eliminated within 24 hours, more rapidly if you drink a lot of fluids and urinate more. The typical exposure for a Tc-99 scan is 3.5 mSieverts, your recall of 5 mSieverts seems on the high side, but even then, 5 mSieverts isn’t anything to concern yourself with. Also, Tc-99 decays through isomeric transition and emits a gamma ray, so it doesn’t matter if it is inside or outside your body - don’t listen to anyone who tells your risk is increased because the Tc-99 was injected.
Pretty much the same for your CT scan. Again, you can’t say the risk is zero, but you can say the risk is very, very small. Compare this exposure to that of a pack a day smoker who intentionally sucks hot, toxic, combustion by-products into his or her lungs and recieves about 50 mSieverts per year.
You may find this link helpful:
http://www.fda.gov/Radiation-EmittingProducts/RadiationEmittingProductsandProcedures/MedicalImaging/MedicalX-Rays/ucm115329.htm
Hope this helps, if you have any questions I’d PM our very own ccpetersmd, he’s a real Doc and if he can’t more fully answer the question, I’ll bet he knows someone who can.

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Thanks Dogs, I seem to remember that in comparison a flight across the Atlantic exposes passengers to similar levels of radiation, or maybe it was what a pilot can expect over a whole year of flying, I can’t remember exactly.
I was definitely drinking a lot of fluids after that scan. I was also researching geiger counters recently and came upon a story of a guy who was testing various things for radioactivity and noted his tiles had some increased radiation, but the most radioactive thing he found was his neighbour, who just had a bone scan 2 weeks before! He tested him a week later and there was nothing.

Some people say to stay away from babies if you have recently had a bone scan.

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All that aside, without access to the source data we really don't know what we are looking at.  I highly doubt the accuracy of the claims and the validity of the information being presented.  
Iep, The link to the (still accessible) data, is this one: http://zardoz.nilu.no/~flexpart/fpinteractive/plots/?C=M;O=D The link appears also after clicking "more information" below the video in the youtube page. The domain itself is called zardoz! I must say I laughed quite a lot after seeing Sir Sean Connery wearing such funny costumes... Definitively not the best way to start the video...
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OK, could a new car built in Japan (probably after the disaster since it is just now arriving in the states) be contaminated?  Should I be worried about buying a new one?  I don’t have a geiger counter to check it with and I’m sure I would not get a straight answer from the dealership (probably just a VERY funny look).

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[quote=ashrat]OK, could a new car built in Japan (probably after the disaster since it is just now arriving in the states) be contaminated?  Should I be worried about buying a new one?  I don’t have a geiger counter to check it with and I’m sure I would not get a straight answer from the dealership (probably just a VERY funny look).
[/quote]
ash -
The answer is yes because it has already happened.  This is the english translation so the syntax and grammar is a little choppy:
http://mobilidaman.info/radiation-2/nuclear-radioactive-contaminated-cars-found-in-chile.html
Your dealer should be able to tell you the port of origin and if it is Yokohama or Yokosuka it would not be surprising to find out that your brand new car has self-illuminating day glo green clear coat.
(I made that last part up)
 

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Nickbert
You had asked about supplements sourced in Japan. I am not an expert but I have an interest in this question; I have a background in healthcare but I am not a “real Doc” like CCPeters, I am in mental health.

I was surprised by the odd assortment of stuff coming out of there; given the globalization effect I guess it makes sense to research anything you want to take if you are very concerned. I googled “supplements manufactured in Japan” and found that most of the coq10 out there had been made in Japan but what region I do not know. Also Reishi mushrooms and certain tea products. I am being careful with seaweed and kelp based products. I take an iodine supplement (vegans get iodine deficiencies) that is derived from norwegian kelp (so they say) but I am a little uneasy with seaweed in general right now.

Regarding fish sources, since heavy metals are always concentrated at the top of the food chain I am asking my loved ones to avoid high level game fish like swordfish.  I think tuna is a tough call but if I were dealing with pregnant moms and little kids I could think of many reasons to avoid it.   I think you can make a good case for catfish and local trout, etc…and they do have some omega 3’s.

Of course there may be other concerns (pollution etc…) with local fish products.

Just my 2 cents trying to be helpful for a change. Be well

Denise

 

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Chris, I believe it was Mr. Gundersen that I read or watched a video of who is very concerned that #3 is listing and every effort is being made to keep that building up! I will look for this in my past readings and try and copy it here. Once again, your message is spot on and is of relevance to those who see prayers as a viable offering. I know if I were closer to this situation however, I would be offering a lot more verbal offerings. Unacceptable!, the WORLDS reaction to this. Shameful… Peace

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http://robpongi.blogspot.com/2011/05/arnie-gunderson-fukushima-situation.html

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I know a lot of the seaweed snacks are from Korea or Japan.
Trader Joe’s roasted seaweed snack is from Korea and apparently was harvested over a year ago:
“Thank you for contacting us. The seaweed used in this product was harvested a year ago, long before any of the radiation concerns. Thank you for shopping with Trader Joe’s.”
http://www.usfoodsafety.com/foodsafetyexpert.aspx

So that sounds safe.

Please Note: Roasted seaweed laver includes oils such as sunflower or sesame. You don’t want to keep it past the expiration date. I’ve tried some about a year or two past expiration, and I think the oil pretty much had polymerized by then - it tasted a little like plastic.

Poet

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I don’t trust the official news releases either, but let’s not become fear mongers. And, let’s check our facts first.
As for 5,000 degrees C: iron/steel becomes liquid about 1538 C and boils to a vapor at 2862 C, zirconium, probably the highest temp stuff in the reactor becomes liquid at 1855 C and boils away at 4409 C. If there were any tungsten there it boils off at 5555 C. But what could be there holding these extremely hot liquids in place?

Natural potassium (40K) in a typical human body produces 4,000 disintegrations per second, 4 kBq (Becquerels
) of activity. That’s 4,000 Bq for only the potassium in the body, and does not include all the other isotopes in the body.

A 1kg brick of naturally occurring potasium metal emits 31,825 Bq. So 100,000 Bq is not nice, but not a raving emergency. Bq also does not differentiate between alpha and beta particles. Alphas can be absorbed by a single thickness of paper and can become an issue only when ingested.

I don’t trust the official news releases either, but let’s not become only fear mongers. And, let’s check that things make sense first, or at least not publish wild guesses too readily. Some few folks will take this info as fact without checking (or thinking). And do please, please keep checking. Like I said, I don’t trust the official news.

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This is a very sophisticated first post, I wish you had joined the conversation earlier to offer your insights, we have been discussing this stuff for a couple of months.
disclaimer: I am not a scientist but I have taken a couple of physics courses so I have basic ideas about what might go on but obviously DIAP and Chris, in their extreme generosity and sincere desire to help the rest of us, are probably the best ones to answer your questions. Nonetheless, I have my own ideas.

“But what could be there holding these extremely hot liquids in place?”-well, liquids boil off at higher temperatures under pressure. Think of the methane crystals at the bottom of the ocean that vaporize at sea level. It would appear that these containment vessels had some degree of pressure within them; if not why would we see such violent hydrogen explosions? of course, this is speculation, not fact so my  apologies in advance

“Natural potassium (40K) in a typical human body produces 4,000 disintegrations per second, 4 kBq (Becquerels
) of activity. That’s 4,000 Bq for only the potassium in the body, and does not include all the other isotopes in the body.-”

Where are you getting 100,000 Bq from? I have read Chris’ post and do not see that particular number. Also, Chris and DIAP have gone out of their way to distinguish between radiation and isotope contamination. They are looking at radiation emitting from the reactors to assess whether there was some breach of the containment vessel, and Chris here IMHO is talking about that issue, not contamination of humans and direct health effects.

“1kg brick of naturally occurring potasium metal emits 31,825 Bq. So 100,000 Bq is not nice, but not a raving emergency. Bq also does not differentiate between alpha and beta particles. Alphas can be absorbed by a single thickness of paper and can become an issue only when ingested.”

this is the point that DIAP and Chris have emphasized, contamination versus radiation. Ingesting particles of radioisotope is a bigger problem than the radiation. That’s why he is suggesting checking the radiation being emitted from foodstuffs in question.

thanks for hearing my responses, the experts will be much better at giving more sophisticated ideas on this but since you asked…take care

 

 

 

 

 

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Thanks Poet for the seaweed suggestion. I love seaweed chips. I am happy to see we have a food and supplements safety thread starting thanks to Nickbert’s questions.

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TOKYO, May 13 (Xinhua) -- A radioactive substance of up to 170,000 becquerels per kilogramwas detected in incinerator ashes at a sewage plant in Koto Ward, east Tokyo, in late March, the Kyodo News Agency quoted government sources as saying Friday.
I'm hypothesizing here based on my understanding of radiation and how a geiger counter works.  First of all, incinerator ash contains mostly relatively nonvolatile elements (the others have gone up the chimney).   It is not surprising that it would be much more radioactive since cesium and other isotopes are relatively nonvolatile.  

As for the geiger counter example, let’s remember that the Geiger counter only clicks for each decay particle that passes through it’s sensor.  If you put if right up to the brick, you’re probably sampling less than one percent of the particles depending on the surface area of the brick and the area sampled by the Geiger counter.  Also, nearly all of the alpha and most of the beta particles emitted from within the brick (rather than on it’s surface) are absorbed before they ever reach the surface of the brick.  Even half of those emitted on the surface travel inward and are absorbed before they reach the other side. The outer surface of the brick effectively shields us and the Geiger counter from the radioactive decay inside the brick.  Conservatively, I would guess this would reduce your count by another 99%.  That leaves us with 170,000/(100 x 100) = 17 counts per second from our Geiger counter by my very rough estimate using what I hope is an accurate understanding of the process.  Anyone with a different and perhaps more informed understanding please correct me.

I would be more concerned about the lower counts of several thousand in soil and several hundred in food, because these are much more likely to be ingested or inhaled than those in bricks.  I would also be concerned about any ash that makes it past the filtration system and into the environment via the smokestack. 

Steve

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for Denise2257114
Good questions/observations.

I picked the 100,000 Bq out of the air; normalizing to a nice round number of 100,000s and that the approximate 40,000 Bq from a human body’s potassium is comparatively significant. Don’t know what the isotopes in your body emit as a total combined. 

Each smoke detector in your home emits about 30,000 Bq., that’s how it works.

I assume that the scientists that measured 170,000 Bq are taking into account the mass shielding of their 1 kg. They did say a 1 kg mass and not a surface area such as 5 square centimeters. FYI, geiger counters don’t measure alphas well, the particles don’t make it through the geiger tube window. The videos I’ve seen has them using scintillation counters that detect both beta and alphas. One reason that a Geiger counter for a few hundred dollars gives some false assurance. Most folks can’t afford thousands for a scintillation counter.

The REAL issue I’m concerned about is that reactor #3 was fueled with MOX which is a uranium/ plutonium fuel by design, not just the smaller amounts of plutonium that are created as a reactor functions normally. I’m concerned that some amount of plutonium will leach out to sea and become global. Virtually ANY particle of plutonium that is ingested is an eventual death sentence from radiation poisoning or cancer when it’s internalized.

The hydrogen explosions occurred at atmospheric pressure, just as if you had a natural gas leak in your house and it acheived a fuel/air ratio that could detonate. Someone flips a light switch - boom, house gone. Same stuff as the Hindenberg disaster but confined in a building. The thing is that hydrogen is created from the zirconium fuel rod sheathing and only occurs when the core is above design temperatures.

Oh, and everything is “volatile” at a high enough temperature - goes to a vapor, then to plasma.

Just to make everyone more uncomfortable, those old luminous “exit” signs from the 1970’s that used tritium emit about 1,000,000,000,000 Bq. That’s a million, million Bq. A trillion, almost the same as this year’s budget deficit in dollars. They’re still in a lot of buildings.

 

 

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For lack of more substantial information about food, water, and air for those of us living here in the continental U.S. (or even Alaska and Hawai’i),  does this mean we really don’t have to worry because it’s really negligible?
Poet

 

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Poet -
FWIW, even if I lived in Hawaii, Alaska or anywhere on the Left Coast, I would be doing nothing different as a result of the Fukushima accident.  Water, milk, green leafies, you name it - nothing different.
In the just slightly greater than 0 chance that piece of Pu from Unit #3 got lofted, landed on a coconut husk that was picked up by a swallow (African or European) that flew across the Pacific, across the US, and dropped the particle on one of my habaneros - well I just figure that’s the way I’m supposed to leave this Earth.
In other words, to answer your question, I don’t think you have anything to worry about. 
JMWIO of course.

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You may not be worrying about that coconut husk but beware the rabbit with the big sharp pointy teeth!