To an investor, losing a tenant can be real pain in the neck. But the tenant has to find new shelter, in what could be a tight rental market. If they have kids or a pet or both, their lives are going to be severely impacted. They also have to arrange to move physically. That’s bad enough. But in a pandemic, to be turfed for non payment of rent would mean finding new accomodations with no way of funding it. (if govt. hadn’t stepped in)
They have their entire beings in the game, not just their skin. It’s the roof over their head, and could be impossible to find alternative place to live.
It must be comforting to be a liberal democrat socialist and not care one iota for anyone who invests time and energy, becomes successful, owns real estate as an investment and then accuse them of misallocation of capital. What utter nonsense. Most houses are owner occupied.
Amerika at one time was a land of equal opportunity not equal outcome. Landlords have families to feed too. You obviously hate capitalism. You hate people being successful. Well too bad.
Where are all those renters going to live if there are no landlords to provide rentals? Oh wait Burnie, Joe, Kammy, Obomba and the Clintons will provide it for them. Right.
A little anecdote I just remembered. I spend a lot of time in India. There is a spiritual site of pilgrimage I am quite fond of. There was a man who was very connected to this place. He happened to be the mayor of the town which was pretty large. He was very wealthy. He had a movie theater, a cafe, a car dealership and other investments. In the early days there was very little accommodations and people would stay in hotels. The mayor had a very large house and compound with other buildings that could accommodate quite a few of these pilgrims, most of whom were young idealistic, liberal type spiritual seekers. They were aghast that the mayor had a huge amount of servants. He patiently explained to them the number of families that he was supporting because of the jobs he was providing.
Why do I even waste my time with fuzzy headed liberals?
New New Years resolution. Leave the fuzzy headed liberals be, let them sleep.
But that aside, I also think I have the solution to the problem you allege exists. Since approximately half the population is compromised of “liberal democrat socialists” described by Mohammed in his post #41 (which, BTW, I wholeheartedly agree with), how can these displaced tenants not find a place to live? Wouldn’t the supposedly more enlightened half of our society offer to share their homes to the displaced persons to stay in until those unfortunate individuals found a place of their own? I mean, it’s the decent humanitarian thing for someone like Netlej to do, someone who believes in “the beauty of humanity” and has an “all of humanity perspective” and comes from wealth. There should be no problem if these supposedly altruistic individuals actually walk the walk.
For what it’s worth, a Christian pastor that I know does just that. He has one couple in an apartment above his garage and another couple with their child sharing the house with his family and just had a missionary who stayed with them for a couple of days on his way elsewhere. He and his wife are wonderful people who rarely talk about these things. They just go out and do them. And they are obviously of modest means. Think how many people these wealthy technocrats and the Hollywood types could put up in their palatial homes and estates.
How could it be impossible to find an alternative place to live in a world where the supposedly more socially and politically enlightened actually acted without hypocrisy?
P.S. FWIW, I lived in 8 different apartments while working my way up, 3 of which were essentially ghetto hovels, and I had no where near the skin in the game nor the work nor the stresses involved as in owning a piece of rental real estate. BTDT. YMMV.
It is so interesting to see all the things that are blamed on the pandemic. When Trump first said “eviction protection because, pandemic”, I wondered: how it was going to be possible to end this program? Same thing with foreclosure protection. Such things are easy to start, but terribly hard to end. What if “the pandemic” never ends?
Call me crazy but the pandemic just seems to be a “build back better” wealth transfer mechanism that ends up destroying small business, and small landlords, redistributing the wealth and centralizing the profits to the Biden Donors: Wall Street and large corporations. Last numbers I saw: 30% of NYC’s restaurants had shut down; this was as of August! Heaven only knows where it is now. “The Media” isn’t reporting on stories like this. I wonder why not?
Is all this happenstance, do you think?
Projected state of the world in 2030: “You won’t own anything. And you’ll be happy.”
Step #1: In 2020, we arrange it so you won’t own anything. [Because - pandemic!]
Step #2: you have 9 years to find a way to be happy about it.
Perhaps its just about location. The “Build Back Better” states - I think there will come a time to buy there - plunging SF property prices come to mind - but between now and then, the “Bad Government Risk” right now is off the charts. They’ll be broke (because, pandemic), and desperate, and in a very confiscatory mood.
The “old normal” states (like Florida) have high property taxes (2%!) but I suspect property values will rise due to - regular people (as well as the very rich) that deeply appreciate the “old normal” and the absence of that destructive Build Back Better policy.
This, from my on-the-ground reports from Florida.
“Location, location, location.” Trite, but probably more true now than it has ever been.
AO, I have provided both food and shelter to several displaced people in the last decade, for months at a time. I don’t have a huge income either.
I only mention this because of your suggestion that all the liberal, lefties team up with displaced tenants, as if democratic socialists aren’t doing some of that already.
Beyond political or religious affiliations, it seems to be the compassionate thing to do. As far as the pastor you mentioned goes, he seems to get it. It’s not so much about believing in Jesus as being moved by his example.
You have no right to describe Netleg the way you have, not knowing what he has done for others. He seems like a kind giving soul to me.
i hope that post wasn’t meant for me. Nothing in the post seems to be in response to anything I have written, particularly the part about not caring one iota about landlords. I am one, so that’s an odd statement. The other thing is I go beyond caring about you, I actually pity you.
I would suggest you read what I actually said regarding Netlej compared to what he said about himself. I don’t think you’ll find anything I said that is at variance with what he said about himself. That’s why I used his words. Then read further and ponder what you may have mistakenly extrapolated from what I wrote due to less than precise comprehension or interpretation of my statements (on your part, not mine) and incorrectly assumed that I said when I, in fact, did not. Your emotions may be outpacing and muddying more accurate, rational cognitive perceptions.
He may very well be a kind giving soul or at least want to convey that impression. I’m not arguing that point.
That aside, he did avoid answering the majority of questions I posed to him, for whatever reason.
Also, while it is laudible you did what you did for several displaced people, can you deny that if everyone on the left who had the means to do so did likewise, the magnitude of the problem we are discussing would be markedly reduced, if not eliminated, at least from the standpoint of providing housing for everyone? I’m not saying this is an ideal solution nor is it even a good one over the long term but it would ensure that no one would go homeless in the short term which was the point I was making.
Furthermore, this was obviously a hypothetical scenario that I posed and in no way frees the right from a certain responsibility to act likewise.
A guy goes grocery shopping and is approaching the milk fridge but is stopped short by a guy who says “you are going for a gallon of milk right? Well I can get that for you and you can go about your shopping. I will check dates, inspect the carton, and a few other things I know about to make sure you are getting the best gallon of milk you need and it will only cost you a few %”.
Then that guy goes to the store owner and says, “I can sell these gallons of milk for you in fact I have someone right now who I can get to buy one. I can get lots of gallons sold for you and you don’t have to do anything different. I will make sure they sell and I will make sure the buyers can indeed pay for them. All this for only a couple %. Soon the guy has locked in most sales and can now convince the buyer and the seller that demand is getting high and supply is not growing fast enough so price increases and now he is rolling in dough without adding any real value to the world.
Disclaimer - I have bought and sold 3 houses, 4 including my dads but just did that as a dutiful son. I have also bought and sold 5 businesses over my 65 years. All without an agent or broker. If people knew how easy it is to open escrow they would never use a Real estate agent again. Escrow agencies I have dealt with actually have a fairly low opinion of RE agents and were always very happy when I handed them all the info they needed to do their job. I am sure there are some circumstances that would benefit from using a RE co. but that would only be maybe 10 to 20% of what it is now.
About the comments above; Charity mostly sucks! It makes the one giving it feel less guilt, makes the ones receiving it feel bad, and makes certain that the problem doesn’t get fixed.
Disclaimer #2 - I owned a Soup restaurant for many years and made it known that if any one was hungry and broke I would give them food. I also, at the end of the day brought what did not get served to the local womens shelter which was packed (those lowlifes ;-).
Again several of you imply that you somehow got successful so everyone can do the same if they weren’t so lazy.
America has a middle man problem sucking the life blood out of the country. The FIRE economy is the largest and growing segment of the economy and it adds zero value it extracts value.
People with solutions; The Late David Graeber, Michael Hudson, Steven Keen, Nate Hagens, and more.
Back to farming now, I got a break cause of the rain.You obviously think that middle men are a primary source of the problems so many are facing. I don’t. Also, to my knowledge, there’s nothing in the Crash Course citing middle men as a problem. There is a lot of information, however, citing the “out of control” monetary system ( as Chris terms it) with being a primary source of the problems and I agree with that whole heartedly. I guess I just don’t get your connection of middle men in the country at large with real estate investment in particular, but I will write more on that particular issue in a bit.
You recognize income inequality as being a source of problems. I whole heartedly agree with you there. And other forms of inequality such as educational inequality are a source of problems as well.
You also recognize that “what is happening now will not stand”. I absolutely agree with you there as well. It will not and it never has. Circumstances have never stayed the same … ever. Change is one of the few constants in this world. Everything is cyclical. That includes political, economic, and monetary systems. Not a single one of those systems has ever been designed, adopted, implemented, and embraced that has stood the test of time. Not one. They’ve cycled in and out of existence but have not stood for much longer than the life span of the average civilization or nation and usually, for a much shorter duration. That’s a fact of history. If you can cite a historical example showing I am wrong, please do. I’m always open to learning.
For what it’s worth, I don’t particularly like real estate as an investment. In fact, twice over the years, I’ve posted a fairly extensive list of the non-emotional reasons here why I don’t care for real estate as an investment. And from an emotional and personality point of view, I don’t particularly like being a landlord. That being said, I also recognize that more people have become wealthy via real estate investment than through any other single path. More power to those folks. But it’s not my preferred investment.
My “investment” in real estate was more for reasons of protecting my practice location than for making money but I certainly didn’t want to lose money. And prophetically, although it has generating a fair return in recent years, it’s been my least profitable investment over the whole term that I’ve held it. Plus, I’ve seen the hand writing on the wall with the decline of the commercial real estate market in recent years, an occurrence which has made me more eager to exit my position. It’s fine now but I’m not so sure it will be in the future.
I’m still interested in hearing what else you feel “should not be allowed to be used as “investment” opportunities” besides your list of:
“homes, food, education, healthcare, communication, retirement, transportation, and a few other things not mentioned”.
Does this mean REITs, food companies like General Mills, healthdare companies like Johnson and Johnson, communication companies like AT&T, transportation companies like Southwest Airlines, and so on should NOT be allowed as investments?
And again, that naturally leads to me repeating the unanswered question I asked:
“What DO you think someone should be allowd to invest in? Or do you think investments should be banned altogether?”
With regards to your fairly broad negative view of real estate agents, I can understand that. I have a mixed view of them. We had one who cheated my grandmother when she sold her last house and the one who I chose to sell our first house looked out more for his interest than ours. On the other hand, I recently used a RE agent to sell my mother’s house and this woman and her husband were a godsend. They went so far above and beyond the call of duty that I actually paid them a bonus to their commission. They were flabbergasted and, to their credit, tried to decline it but I insisted. Was that technically a bad decision from a business point of view? Some may say yes. But was it the right thing to do from my perspective of rewarding her for a job well done and thanking her for saving me a great deal of money, time, and effort and reducing my stress? Absolutely! And the ultimate outcome is that I made friends of those two wonderful people.
With regards to your negative view of charity, I can understand you thinking that way but I take the opposite view. Giving to others is a blessing for the giver and a blessing for the receiver. And very often, it’s all the receiver needs to get through a difficult phase of their life and ultimately rise above it. Would you favor banning charities as well? I think not. You yourself provided charity and that is commendable. It does make me wonder though. If you take such a dim view of it, why did you provide it?
With regards to your accusation of labelling others as lazy, that is your interpretation and assumption. It’s not objective reality, at least not with regards to what I posted. Some won’t do the same because they are indeed lazy, that is true. But some may not do the same because they are not interested or they value something else more. Or they may not be able to, either due to environment (i.e. temporal, spatial, or other circumstances, etc.) or genetics (they are not mentally or physically capable) or some other reason. I, for one, fully recognize this.
With regards to the FIRE economy, I agree with you. It’s grown into a great big fat parasite. But I don’t know if the term “middle man” accurately applies to it. And, to play devil’s advocate, would you prefer no one have access to those services?
With regards to the people you say offer solutions, I’m only familiar with half of them and there are indeed bright people with good ideas. But they are not saviors. I guarantee that NONE of them have solutions that will stand up long term.
P.S. Out of curiosity, where are you located that you had to take a break due to the rain while farming in the middle of January? The Southern Hemisphere?
ao - The answers to most all your Qs are in my original comments. It’s not hard to see what I am talking about. As for PP we are bumping up against peak everything which means everything gets more expensive or so goes the thinking so those in a position to do so have unleashed banking/finance and pour a steady flow of money in in an attempt to address that problem. The problem is that money needs to go somewhere and that is mostly stocks and bonds. Money has one goal in life and that is to become more money, Feed Me Seymour! So that money has been buying its way into any and all operations where money transactions occur. Private equity firms, venture capital, private “investors”, equity funds, mergers and acquisitions, buy anything with a heart beat and skim off the profits and if there are no “surplus” profits they sell off assets, fire staff, and mortgage the acquisition to the hilt to pay themselves money and leave the company to pay the debt. America has been gutted.
If you don’t understand this or how healthcare has been a victim of similar process you really have not been paying attention. The “cycle” you mention is happening but it is the mother of down cycles ending in possible extinction of humans.
Where do you think the money comes from when you “invest”? Is there so much extra money in the production of food and healthcare that all the investors get to have their cut? There is zero extra. The money comes at the expense of those who would use those things. I would only allow “investing” in the non essential economy, things that the average person would not be negatively impacted by regular price increases caused not by physical realities but by “investors”. I would tax money made from money at 90%. The benefit of all that would be a wonderful society that anyone would be proud to live in. To be clear there is a common misperception that “investment” is beneficial and in fact necessary for the advancement of the modern world. The opposite has been proven true, it sucks profit out of the economy and into the hands of fewer and fewer people and is the cause of inequality. History shows that communities are fully capable of funding their needs. Development is slower then but that is exactly what have happened and is what we need to have happen.
I am for banning the causes that create the need for charity. A person would have to be a fool to ban helping someone in need, that was a ridiculous question.
As to FIRE; F - The postal service should have its budget quadrupled and low to no interest banking included in its mandate. I - Again communities and the Fed Gov should provide this service at a cost of a few dollars to each person instead of making a hand full of people morbidly wealthy. Health care should be single payer just like all other first world countries, the 20 or 30 countries that have better/cheaper health care than the US. RE - RE is possibly a reasonable service for some but they do not do anything that warrants a %. It should be a service just like any other and charge a price that is appropriate. If it was hourly I think most people would be disgusted by what they now demand.
Disclaimer - I did property maintaince and construction for a very big RE firm in the Bay area for years, my daughter is in the industry, and know intimately how it works.
The only way any "solutions would work and be sustained is if people are educated enough to understand what the problems are and can get somewhat on the same page. A tall order I know but it is what Chris and others are trying to do.
Farming is a 24/7/365 thing. I am in the PNW and I have endless chores, maintenance, pruning, predator abatement, greenhouse, etc. I am just finished trimming wins of a new batch of 50 blue orpington chickens so they don’t fly into the field and get picked off by the half dozen or so predators slinking about.
I suggest you save your pity for someone who cares what you think. In case that isn’t clear enough, I really don’t care what you think about anything. Capische?
But I think you are east and I am west and never the twain shall meet. For example, some of your comments such as,
“Money has one goal in life and that is to become more money”
fly in the face of objective reality. Money is a tool, no more, no less. It can be used for evil or for good. The choice is up to the possessor.
Most of the utopian solutions you are hoping for (and I hoped for the same things at one time) have been tried at one time or another throughout history and none have endured.
For example, I was just reading about Robert Owen recently. He took a good shot at it, had his successes, but eventually failed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Owen
This doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try. It only means we should look higher than most look now and to a source other than the self.
Disparity of income, with the wealthy becoming more and more wealthy while everyone else loses ground, indicates capitalism, as it is structured in the U.S. does not work, it creates asset bubbles.
Part of the answer is to keep corporate taxes low, and raise marginal income tax and capital gains tax. Asset bubbles are generally blamed on the federal reserve keeping interest rates low, but some form of misallocation of capital, would be created by a capitalist system, regardless.
The reason property taxes are so high in much of the U.S. is a simple offloading of federal responsiblity onto local governments.
There are no easy answers, but there are a few obvious solutions.
You can’t have infinite growth on a finite planet. Chris has made this point. Things have to slow down, and wealth tax will do that. Capital gains from stock market investing should be taxed at 50%.
That money can be taken and used to subsidize small farms, cooperative housing etc…
…and it’s the non caring that had you respond? You care very much.
Don’t flatter yourself
Just read a bit a bit about the upcoming Grand Solar Minimum.
Northern states or countries could become Alaska-like cold. So nobody would like to live there.
Time to ditch northern real state and move south, while you still can.
@cgarcia said
Just read a bit a bit about the upcoming Grand Solar Minimum. Northern states or countries could become Alaska-like cold. So nobody would like to live there. Time to ditch northern real state and move south, while you still can.I had an electrician in a couple days ago. He works with area realtors. Told me the real estate agents who helped so many Boston and NYC folk buy their country homes last spring and summer are now starting to bitch about how cold Vermont is in January. So they're expecting that the prices that were driven up in 2020 by big city money will be plummeting in 2022 as many of those expats decide to repatriate home, or at least head for Florida, the Carolinas and Arizona. That'll suit me just fine. So will your Solar Minimum. With luck, we'll become half our current population. Again.
This is interesting. Lifted it from a post on this site by a Michael Troy.
"Astrobiologists investigating panspermia theory say the pandemic is related to a 150 year low in solar activity. They believe the weak magnetosphere allowed the virus in to earths atmosphere. They even predicted the pandemic based on sunspot activity but now are warning the sun recharges the magnetosphere with a return to solar maxima. The last big event was in 1921... as the 1918 pandemic ended. Coincidence maybe but that event was as big as the Carrington and would have caused massive damage to modern technology. Given panspermia is now being actively investigated by NASA and ESA and JAXA....shouldn’t the alarm bells be ringing?"
https://earthsky.org/space/sunspot-cycle-25-among-strongest-on-record-says-ncar
I would rather destroy everything I own, poison all my food and burn my crap to the ground than be forced to give it to someone who didn’t earn it. I enjoy volunteering, donating to charity, starting an endowed scholarship etc but I have done that all on my own terms. Try and force anything on me and I would rather have nothing than be compelled to contribute.
I would rather destroy everything I own, poison all my food and burn my crap to the ground than be forced to give it to someone who didn’t earn it. I enjoy volunteering, donating to charity, starting an endowed scholarship etc but I have done that all on my own terms. Try and force anything on me and I would rather have nothing than be compelled to contribute.As applied to being a landlord, don't tell your insurer that. Are you referring to the government moratorium on rent during the pandemic? If so, in civilized countries during any kind of severe crisis, people generally want to unite and help each other out, whether that is by govt dictate or not. You prefer the scorched earth policy. Hmmm....