Thanks for sharing. I agree that just surviving these changing times isn’t enough. We need do-ers and we are exposed to many do-ers on this site. Those like CM, JHK, AT and ever so many people that contribute on these threads are helping us to navigate our changing world and move in the direction toward the world we would like to see.
And, if we end up in a world we don’t like, then we will need to come from hardy stock and have the ability to adapt.
Look forward to more great posts.
AK Granny
[quote=anexaminedlife]
Interesting discussion. A few excerpts perked up my ear: 1) JHK's fear that as things fall apart, the population will resort to superstition and 2) his brief discussion about Germany and how it was that one of the most developed and sophisticated countries of the day could devolve into the Nazi years. Both of these observations go hand-in-hand. It has always been a simmering fear on my back burner that if/when things fall apart, most people won't understand what happened or how they got there and they will turn to delusional and dangerous answers.
There is a book, which I just happen to be reading now, that was written in 1966 by a Jewish-American journalist of German descent. He went to Germany and befriended, in the real meaning of that word, ordinary Germans to find out just what the hell they were thinking during the Nazi years. He did not tell them he was Jewish. As you can imagine, the pedestrian accounts of and excuses for those years are chillingly familiar. But the author’s account in Chapter 13 ("But Then It Was Too Late") of a conversation he had with an educated and thoughtful German who understood what was happening – and what was about to be – frightened me. The book is They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45, by Milton Meyer. I strongly recommend it. At the very least, read Chapter 13, which is so disquieting to our time that you will find it posted in full all over the Interwebs just by googling the name of the book and chapter 13.
Chapter 13 will certainly propel any thinking, compassionate, and aware person to speak up and speak often.
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anexaminedlife,
I am afraid I am late to this discussion, hoping that I may influence another aspect to your introduction of Milton Mayer's 1955 book, They Thought They Were Free.
I have to admit that I broke down in tears while reading chapter 13 - provided by Oliveoilguy in post #11 - having begun reading the book on line now - link - and awaiting my order from Amazon.com.
Milton Mayer died almost 29 years ago on the 20th of April 1986, aged 77 years. For what he came to know was a proof that the legacy of history has its continuum in repeat, with the only means to faulter such outcome as the second world war becoming a third world war are for all people to have awareness of the signs of free society closing down.
The meaning behind the term politically correct has its status here. By the slow removal of the vocabulary that acts as a political weapon against the means of closing down societal freedom - of simplification - uninformed and unenlightened choice - none can be seen to be living in a democracy/republic.
From chapter 13, Milton Mayer wrote:
"... one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. One day it is over his head."Turning to the history of the United States, Daniel Ellsberg precipitated a national political controversy in 1971 when he released the Pentagon Papers - a top-secret Pentagon study of U.S. government decision-making in relation to the Vietnam War - to The New York Times and other newspapers. At roughly the same time in 1971, The McCarran Act - or Subversive Activities Control Act - was partially repealed by the Non-Detention Act, which was the push back as I see it - all but simplified - of the re-opening of a closing society. At every attempt, society has the possibility of closing down through the actions of each generations opportunists. The fact that most do not live long enough lives to see history repeat itself, we are lucky that the 81 year old Daniel Ellsberg is today fighting a similar cause against the Obama administration, as he was under the juresdiction of the Nixon government over 40 years ago. Ellsberg, along with many noteworthy recipients - including M.I.T professor Noam Chomsky and the Pulitzer prize winning journalist Chris Hedges - are presently fighting bill 1021 of the National Defense Authorization act. This act holds the provision of indefinate detention of American civilians “until the end of hostilities”; which in the age of permanent war is probably a lifetime. This bill that appears will be faught right upto the level of the Supreme Court - and if enacted and implemented - will mean that journalists - and the bloggers that share information freely on this very website - can and may be optionally arrested without trial, and imprisoned indefinately. To quote again from chapter 13 of Milton Mayers book:
"Pastor Niemöller spoke for the thousands and thousands of men like me when he spoke (too modestly of himself) and said that, when the Nazis attacked the Communists, he was a little uneasy, but, after all, he was not a Communist, and so he did nothing; and then they attacked the Socialists, and he was a little uneasier, but, still, he was not a Socialist, and he did nothing; and then the schools, the press, the Jews, and so on, and he was always uneasier, but still he did nothing. And then they attacked the Church, and he was a Churchman, and he did something—but then it was too late."I do not wish to be a part of the next round of statistics that suggests my removal from society will benefit it somehow with my absense. Chapter 13 certainly has propelled my thinking, and my compassion and awareness as a person who wishes to speak up and speak often. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hid8UzV3xho
…Naomi Wolf summed things up pretty nicely, I am also very familiar with the work of Paul Craig Roberts as well. I am surprised that Mike Ruperts name has not come up on this thread. If you want to take a trip down a very dark rabbit hole read his tome, Crossing the Rubicon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9f0sBA61L0Y
These days Yes Magazine is more my speed, great articles about coops in the latest issue. I have spent enough time in the belly of the beast, decided to cut some holes and enjoy the view.
Good chat but both JHK and CM came up with their own wishful thinking: somehow “civilisation” is maintained as our global society goes down the gurgler. This wishful thinking leads to not thinking things through. Chris wants to retain anti-biotics despite the increasing struggle to remain ahead of the bacteria, doue to the overuse of them (I wonder if any use would be overuse). They both want to retain root canal dental surgery rather than thinking about the diets that perhaps have led us to requiring such surgery. Maybe retaining Mozart (and the conditions that led to his works) would be nice but it’s wishful thinking.
All civilisations have collapsed and this one will collapse. If anything is retained that might be a bonus (or it might not) but why even try to retain only the elements you want? That is too much magic.
I was very disappointed to hear Mr. Kunstler announce he voted for Obama twice because Obama was "the lesser of two evils." I voted for Obama in 2008 because I could not stand Palin, thus casting my vote for the "lesser evil." I have come to the realization that ONLY candidates should strategize; the voter needs to vote his/her conscience.
I do not believe that Obama is "the lesser of two evils" because no matter what Obama does (and it's a laundry list):
sign NDAA bill,
secretly execute US Citizens,
increase military aide three-fold over Bush to dictators during Arab Spring,
personally go after Arab reporter who broke US Drone Killing of US Citizen Anwar Al Alawki in Yemen,
campaign for GMO labeling then appoint Monsanto Lobbyist, Tom Vilsak, Secretary of Agriculture,
campaign on closing GITMO but instead closes the office in charge of closing GITMO(!),
engage in UNPRECEDENTED all out war on whistleblowers;
lull medical marijuana dispensiaries into false sense of safety publicly, then prosecute with a vengeance,
the "left" is silent.
Imagine, we are soooo programmed, we cast our vote for a candidate we do not like.
I believe it's wasting your vote to cast your ballot for a Democrat or Republican on the national and State ticket. You see, the Republican and Democrat parties is actually one, two-headed monster. So long as you listen to the mainstream media, you will be programmed - even if you are an educated and enlightened soul like Kunstler.
For me, it is 30 years and counting since I have channeled television or cable into my home. I refuse to give good money for garbage.
Mememonkey, I agree with you. We are already there! And to think Kunstler voted for Obama, twiice!
voted for. I was always taught who I voted for was none of your dam business.
Note: I wasn't saying it wasn't any of "your" dam business (aka: being rude) just who I vote for is none of "your-PLURAL" dam business. So, if I was asked, I would say, "that is none of your dam business". Thank you (think Rosanna, Rosanna, banana of SNL fame).
Regards
BOB
We got Mugabe, you have got O'Bama. These things start with hope and enthusiasm and end in tears.
At the height of a very nasty war Ian Smith had one (1) security officer, who often lost sight of him. He would sometimes find him chatting to some nobody (black or white) in the middle of the street. He was quite safe.
Come close to the screen. I will tell you a little secret.
There are no Terrorists. (Except that one under your bed) There is no War.
There is however, the Ministry of Peace.
HladiniYou're absolutely right. It's tough to distinguish between Republican and Democrat in a lot of elections, but Kunstler said a few things that I found just outright incongruent!
"The notion of price controls is a self defeating policy" but he voted for Obama after he forced Obamacare on the nation, which, as much as anything, places price controls on health care (which will drive down the supply as more and more doctors decide to retire early since their potential income is being limited).
And his comment that in the US there is "no general sense that when you do things, bad things can happen." I agree with SingleSpeak's observation: Kunstler emobidies in large part what he bemoans - he has bought into the magical promises of our campaigner-in-chief.
Sometimes what I fear the most is that perhaps we've all given up on the power that used to be embodied in our right to vote. Maybe I'm just naive, and think that power is still there…
Keith
Casey, browsing the comments here I came across a familiar face. Nice experience and the first time that's ever happened to me in the blogsphere! There's what looks like an Interesting phenomenon here where I live in Greenwich Village (NYC). Greenwich Avenue, one block away, is a street historically filled with independent businesses which typify Main St. in a small town. Restaurants, bistros, and bars of course - but also independent clothing stores, a 'mystery' speciality bookstore, dry cleaners, hair salons, tabacs, hardware stores, an art gallery, and boutique clothing and home speciality stores. Independent operators all.
Over the past six months as I've walked the street I notice one after another going out. From what I've been able to gather, even in these times of slow economic recovery these folks are being forced out not for lack of business but because of dramatic rent increases!
It seems the landlords in the area are anticipating (rightly or wrongly) a new class of wealthy consumers with a taste for high end goods and services and so are looking to secure high-end retailers who can easily pay inflated leases for their space.
That in contrast to what you're seeing in rural areas… and a paradox in the current economic climate.