Joel Salatin: How to Prepare for A Future Increasingly Defined By Localized Food & Energy

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To get this thread back on topic, I found a copy of the film Food Inc on You Tube, which stars Joel Salatin doing what he does best. Without this community, I wouldn’t have gained the benefit of his wisdom …
Wikipedia Review

Food, Inc. is a 2008 American documentary film directed by Emmy Award-winning filmmaker Robert Kenner. The film examines corporate farming in the United States, concluding that agribusiness produces food that is unhealthy, in a way that is environmentally harmful and abusive of both animals and employees. The film is narrated by Michael Pollan and Eric Schlosser.

The film’s first segment examines the industrial production of meat (chicken, beef, and pork), calling it inhumane and economically and environmentally unsustainable. The second segment looks at the industrial production of grains and vegetables (primarily corn and soy beans), again labeling this economically and environmentally unsustainable. The film’s third and final segment is about the economic and legal power, such as food label laws, of the major food companies the profits of which are based on supplying cheap but contaminated food, the heavy use of petroleum-based chemicals (largely pesticides and fertilizers), and the promotion of unhealthy food consumption habits by the American public.


Official Food Inc Website Link

I also recommend a severely conscience bashing book that lifted the lid on the fast food industry back in 2001 : -

Fast Food Nation ~ by Erich Schlosser [Link to first chapter]

Independent review at Amazon.com

I picked up this book the moment I saw it mostly because I’ve always known that fast food is "bad for you" - but I’ve been both afraid to know why and curious at the same time. After all, I’ve been hearing the other side of the argument my whole life. I’ve been pummeled by fast food ads - and eaten plenty of fast food - for a ridiculously long time. Why do I want to stay ignorant about it?

Those of you expecting an update on John Robbins’ "Diet For A New America" will be disappointed. Schlosser has not crafted a scientific slam against fast food joints, but rather a thorough examination of their motives and histories, with a strong emphasis on the people - from both sides of the coin. The time he devotes to the personal stories of those whose lives have been forever changed by fast food - from the rags-to-riches tale of Carl Karcher to the tragic story of a big-hearted rancher named Hank - are largely what keeps "Fast Food Nation" both emotionally provoking and tangible throughout.

If this book were merely a saber-toothed diatribe against fast food corporations, it couldn’t allow itself such concessions and would probably come across as socialist tubthumping to all but the converted. Instead, lengthy establishing essays on the history, ideologies, and present state of the communities and corporations discussed are a welcome introduction (and counterpoint to) the individual stories of struggle, greed, and survival.

While he makes no secret where his sympathies lie, Schlosser often reminded me more of Wendell Berry than John Robbins, as he bravely attempts to "tell it like it is" from more of a "pro-human" as opposed to an "anti-corporate" perspective. In doing so, the dehumanizing aspects of all global corporations (and the effects of NAFTA and the Telecommunications Act of '96) are supplied a provoking reference point.

By my standards, "Fast Food Nation" is a fine debut accomplishment for the author and a welcome book for our increasingly homogenized (and de-regulated) times. The story of fast food, a quotidian experience for many, has never seemed quite so impressive, scary, and profound. My education began here.

In his introduction to "Fast Food Nation", Schlosser says that he’s interested in fast food "both as commodity and metaphor", and indeed, this well-written tome is as much an examination on the titular product as an able primer on the encroachment of large corporations into the lives of working Americans.

An interview with Eric Schlosser : -

 Paul

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If you assume that a book published in 1906 isn’t valid today, think again. I happened to find a copy in PDF that can be read on line or downloaded, though I suggest you gain a copy as I did, that has so far been leant out about five times in the past 6 months : -
The Jungle ~ by Upton Sinclair [PDF Link]

Independent Review at Amazon.com

Published in 1906, this book is famous for exposing the unsanitary and disgusting practices of the meat processing industry in Chicago. I chose to read the original uncensored edition because I didn’t want a whitewashed version. I was not disappointed. I got it all, in all its grisly details. Processed meat and sausages included diseased animal meat, rats, the filth on the floor and even the bodies of human workers who got sucked into the lard vats. Yes, these abuses were shocking and resulted in reform and new standards for the industry, but that was only one aspect of the book.
Central to the story is the plight of the workers and, indeed, that was Upton Sinclair’s purpose as he went to Chicago on a stipend from a socialist newspaper to expose the exploitation of the factory workers. That is the central theme of the book and I found myself wincing throughout, not only because of the tubercular beef being sold to the public, but mostly because of the degradation of the human beings who were just cogs in the wheels of production.
The story is about a family of Lithuanian immigrants who came to America for a better life. From the very beginning, they were cheated. They were sold a substandard house and never told about the extra taxes, fees and clauses that would cause them to lose the house if they were late with their payments. They had to to walk several miles to work in the stockyards in the dead of winter with inadequate clothing. Children were forced to work too and one little boy lost some fingers from frostbite. Their wages didn’t meet their needs and there were times there was no food at all. They could never afford doctors or medicine and if a member of a family was sick or injured that person lost his or her job.
I’ll never forget the characters in the book. Ona and Jurgis are a young married couple who we meet at their wedding in the beginning of the book. They are young and they have hope. Jurgis is big and strong and easily gets a job. At first all seems well. But as the book progresses, we see how everyone in the family has no choice but to work. This includes the elderly father and the children. Later, when Jurgis hurts his foot in an accident, he is out of work for months and the family suffers. But even more horror is in store of the family. Mainly, we follow what happens to Jurgis as he loses his job, and circumstances spiral out of control. I felt real emotion for him and his family, amazed at out anyone could endure the hardships they had to face. Eventually the book winds up as the writer wanted it, with anger at the exploitation of the workers.
I loved this book. I read it all at once, starting it at three o’clock one afternoon and reading through most of the night until I finished it. I identified with each of the characters and was amazed at their forbearance and strength through all their adversity. Of course I had heard about these horrible conditions throughout my lifetime. But I never realized how bad they really were. This book opened my eyes. I don’t know if I will ever be the same again.
I give this book my highest recommendation. It’s not only a great story with great characters, it’s a plea for social justice. And its impact can still be felt today.

Paul
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  Paul , 
   WHEW   My first thought was  does this guy know what battle he is in for ?  Then my mind went to can I even imagine  how many people will go hungry or starve without fast food??      I would challange everyone to just write down what food you buy instead of growing yourself .    It is a a full time job to grow your own veggies , fruit , grains, milk, cheese, meat .   I am serious  I do not think most ppl are ready to even consider such a thing.   There needs to be a book about what it takes  from the seed to the table .
   Yes Sir , I think facing the fact  of where your food comes from is amazing .     I consider my family and what amounts of food it takes to keep everyone  fed  in the back of my mind … how many peach trees does it take ,  do I have enough  pecan trees planted ,  what if we have a bad year of tomato or bean crop. What if the popcorn crop fails !!!      It is enough to blow my mind at times .    Oats  how much oats to feed the family and the animals .   Can we catch enough fish ,   will butchering one cow be enough ? 
 
 I am serious I still have to go to the store and buy some things .  Thankfully I have a basement full  because I am not totally set up for self suffiecency  even yet .  
 I do not sell one thing off this place that can be traced .  NOT even a jar of walnut tincture  or dozen eggs !  You pay cash  you do not get it .   I have gotten 3 letters from the Govt. wanting info on my hog operation  … I do not know if this comes from selling a couple pigs at the 4-H fair a few years ago or if it  is because I took some to the locker to be butchered instead of doing it here at home .
  In return I only pay cash  for the neighbors milk  or trade them  back in yogurt or cheese .   
  THIS IS ALL A FULL TIME JOB I KID YOU NOT !   I am willing to bet there is no way many people are going to be able to do it .  I REALLY NEED TO GET THIS GENTLEMEN’S  BOOK  because I do not see convience foods going away until they are forced too .  I see people selling out to the beast first .
 
 ALL this is not to say that I do not agree with what he said in the video as true … I just don’t see how there is going to be big change .  Japan can  not feed itself at all .   I planted rice in their fields … I bought raw milk from their dairy  … They ship in major percentage of their food even to feed the cows . .       I am rattling on  sorry … I am afraid for many people   … How many do you know that will not eat a carrot ??
 Anyway thank you for bringing up these subjects so tha I do not become complacent  as well .
 Off to town to get the durn hunting liecense for the kiddos … can’t even go Dove hunting without the Govt  wanting in on the action .  And you HAVE to give them your Soc.SEC. Number on that paper … great ; (
 FM 
  FM 

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Hi FM,
I hope that I have persuaded you to read Eric Schlossers book Fast Food Nation some time in the future. It is a wonderful tombe, deserving its place on your bookshelf as much as my copy does, when it isn’t being lent out for the umpteenth time. It has some good stock reference in it worthy of going back to again and again.

What I would offer, as an aside for now, is reading Richard Heinbergs book The Party’s Over. I’ve just been lucky enough to find a full copy of it online in PDF that you could down load, so here’s a link to it. I suggest you scroll down to chapter three and read the full chapter in its entirety. I suggest also that this will give good grounding as to what kind of population size will be expected in the United States within the next fifty years, God willing that some moron doesn’t choose to push the red button if you get my meaning?

With so many fossil fuel inputs to modern agricutlure, and the fact that for every bushel grown in ohio causes three bushels worth of permanent soil errosion, I don’t see much soil standard remaining to recreate the kind of population that was here before fossil fuel. Back before the 1850’s the US had a population more often dedicating over three quarters of their lives in growing food. They had many generations of dedicated toilers who passed their knowledge down from father to son and mother to daughter down through the ages. This past three generations have pretty much lost all of that knowledge to living in cities, by use of the models created through the Green Revolution of the 1950’s.

Even if many millions of people take to the land and away from the cities expecting a pocket of land and a few seeds will save them, it is going to take many many years to get the land back up to a standard that the soil will give anything like a good yield.

In other words, what with so many pests that have become immune to fossil fuel chemical pesticides, the future is bleak enough with fossil fuel input. Without it I suggest a chalamity is in order.

Yes, with all certainty in my mind, a great many people aren’t going to make it, no matter how hard they try.

I have no pleasure in writing this, you can be sure …

Paul

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    Maybe caught me on a bad day … I  can  just see people getting very ugly when they can’t afford to buy that snickers bar  or potato chip .      When it is taking me so much time and energy to  make say …pickle relish  …  You have got to think way ahead  making the vinegar , growing the onion ,cucs, peppers , spices  … I had to buy sugar  and salt …My  bees ran off so I could not use honey and  I have no clue what we would do without salt ??

   Even grinding and canning it takes more than a day to have it ready on the shelf .  Almost  every single thing we stick in our mouth  is very labor / fuel intensive.  And the mess to clean up !!  

 Yes,Sir, hope to get some reading time in soon .    Bushels of tomatoes, beans , and elderberries  screaming at me to get them into jars for the next few days .

 Yes I can see that the grass feed animals may be the easiest food of all  BUT  even then  you are not going to have beef for two to three years   and  if you do not have a broody hen you better have  someone with a good incubator.  The neighbor kids did hatch some in the attic this summer  as it was warm enough …  Here is an experiment  for you all .   

   I had better get back at it  … just tired is all . Too many people fighting over piddly things all the while they are looking to the Govt. to  come up with the answers . 

 K  got to get the hubby a lunch so he can  go run a train …  Egg Salad sandwich with pickle relish , right .

 FM 

 I am very suspisious that the county went up and down the roads spraying chemicals on the plum thickets … They look burnt  .   Maybe they are trying to keep people from  even feeding themselves on natural fruits .

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[quote=scribe] The interview is about the man and his views, so bringing in his (hidden) views is on topic.
[/quote]
No, you are wrong. The interview is about the man’s views on farming.  He could be a flat earther as far as I’m concerned as long as his farming info is valid and productive (which is abundantly clear). His personal, political, religious, views as well as his race, marital status, sexual preference etc. are irrelevant.

I am not grateful. In fact I am repulsed by your bigotry.

 Yeah, what would Chris do without you.
 

Because they are proven, repeatedly so. In spades.

No, and he states so if you bothered to check. He repeatedly gives credit to natural processes as  originator; it’s a constant theme: to imitate nature. And ultimately it doesn’t matter who thought of them as long as they work, which they do.

Because our distorted and dysfunctional farming "industry" is a product of government manipulation that interferes with the farming concepts that he has found to be the most effective, efficient and productive.

Yeah, we’re so helpless that we need someone like you to protect us from ourselves and evil religious folks like Salatin. What would we do without you? I hope to find out.

One can only hope.

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[quote=isildur22]Now, I’m an atheist and a plant geneticist to boot, so I most likely cleave more to your personal beliefs than Mr. Salatin’s, but can’t a man have good things to say about farming and yet be a creationist at the same time?  I don’t like his stance against GMOs either  (shared by many participants on these sites, for some reason), but clearly he’s got  valuable knowledge and experience on other aspects of farming.  There’s no need to police the personal beliefs of guests.  The open marketplace of ideas makes life interesting. 
[/quote]
isildur - If it hasn’t already been said, welcome to CM.com.
At the risk of stirring up emotional debate could/would you provide some amplifying info on why you and Salatin (and many others) have differenig viewpoints on GMO crops?
FWIW, I don’t know what I don’t know, but I am leaning towards the benevolent neglect side of the argument.  It seems to me that genetically modifying an organism to boost crop yield and increase resistance to insects and/or disease is generally a "good" thing.  But then there is the whole specter of the ‘kill gene’.  You can’t help but wonder if the studies to support conclusions that it is "safe" have been allowed to fully run their course. At the same time, the arguments that they "aren’t safe" are probably based more on emotion than science and haven’t received sufficient academic scrutiny and rigor either.  I could be wrong.
The arguments that they contain recombinant DNA retroviruses for an engineered die-off so the lizard bankers can take over the world generates little more than an eye roll and passing interest. 
Any expert insight or info you could provide would be greatly appreciated.

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Not an expert here, but I’ll jump in— 
One thing a lot of people object to is the way Monsanto treats competition of any type.

If pollen from a Monsanto field  blows into your non-GMO field, they they can and will take you to court for propogating unlicensed GMO seeds.  That is soooo underhanded and has been the ruin of many traditional farmers.

Then there is the secrecy,  and the buying out of patents from small researchers.  thepoisoning of the soil with Round Up, which of course they also make.  There’s the lobbying and manipulation of government controls to their advantage.

If you want fertile soil, you can’t go that route.

My best guess is that in the future we will have to have both. Intensive, nutured  fields and crops and factory farms both.

 

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I grew up on a farm in Iowa and helped my dad with the corn and soybean fields, and I have a Ph.D. in genetics from UW-Madison. so I do have great interest in this issue.  I don’t have much time during weekdays, but I’ll put together a primer this weekend.Farmers choose to buy Monsanto’s products because if they do their yields are larger and the total amount of chemicals that they need to spray on their fields to achieve those yields is less.  Farmers are not stupid-- they still have fertile soil after years of using Round-up.  People love to talk about what farmers should be doing, however, and I bet that won’t change
Glyphosate (Round-up) is actually one of the least injurious herbicides ever produced, and disappears really quickly (days) when it gets to the soil, degrading into carbon dioxide and nitrogen.  It’s really a miracle herbicide, and unfortunately it won’t be useful indefinitely because weeds are already evolving resistance to it.  .
The patent issue is a real problem, and in my opinion our strict patent laws slow down progress and should be reformed. The ability to patent natural genes is quite scary in general, and really stupid policy too, but thankfully it appears that the lawmakers are coming around.   However it’s a problem in every technological industry.  Google is buying up companies and their patents left and right.  A reform bill was recently passed (the America Invents Act) but I haven’t yet looked into how it will affect the situation.
 

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[quote=isildur22]Glyphosate (Round-up) is actually one of the least injurious herbicides ever produced, and disappears really quickly (days) when it gets to the soil, degrading into carbon dioxide and nitrogen.  It’s really a miracle herbicide, and unfortunately it won’t be useful indefinitely because weeds are already evolving resistance to it.  .
[/quote]
What happens to the phosphorus atom?

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[quote=ao][quote=isildur22]
Glyphosate (Round-up) is actually one of the least injurious herbicides ever produced, and disappears really quickly (days) when it gets to the soil, degrading into carbon dioxide and nitrogen.  It’s really a miracle herbicide, and unfortunately it won’t be useful indefinitely because weeds are already evolving resistance to it.  .
[/quote]
What happens to the phosphorus atom?
[/quote]
Nice point ao.
You’ve reminded me of a recent news item back in December by Democracy Now! It lays sway to the tip of the iceberg on the colossus that is Mount Monsanto : -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p28xSOd3F5U&feature=player_embedded
Let it also be said that there are plenty of creditable hits to be found over the formidable nature of the actions that Monsanto has taken over the control of global food supply simply by doing a Google search. The last count was 16,800,000.
More importantly for this community though, is the destruction of small scale farming right across the United States. This documentary below should nail home any doubts, though it still leaves the issue of quite how upward of 9.3 billion people are supposed to be fed by 2050 - this, and of course against diminishing global fossil fuel supply : -
The World According to Monsanto
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YH4OwBYDQe8
Paul

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You actually get 0 points for that, ao. Glyphosate degrades to aminomethylphosphonic acid and then to phosphoric acid/phosphate.  That’s inorganic phosphate. It’s the form required by plants as a fertilizer.
Here’s the link to one of the papers that shows that degradation sequence but unless you’re at a university (or have a subscription to Soil Biology and Biochemistry…) you’ll have to buy it or PM me your email address and I’ll send the pdf to you.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0038071799000103
But here’s a summary paragraph: "During recent years an intensive use of herbicides has raised increasing concern mainly due to their massive pollution of the environment. To address this problem, the herbicide glyphosate (N-[phosphono-methyl]glycine) might be very promising. It acts by interfering with the enzyme that catalyses the sixth step in the shikimate pathway, 5-enol-pyruvyl-shikimate-3-phosphate (EPSP) synthase (Cole, 1985), has little or no chronic and neuro-toxic effects, and no obvious carcinogenic and mutagenic activity as well, and is thus to be considered ineffective against man and animals (Atkinson, 1985). Moreover, even though the rate of utilization has been reported to vary considerably between different soils, it is rapidly and completely degraded by soil microorganisms to water, carbon dioxide and phosphate. Following adsorption through the phosphoric acid moiety, mineralization proceeds without any lag phase, and seems to be a co-metabolic process that occurs under both aerobic and anaerobic conditions (Torstensson, 1985). The first step in the predominant degradation pathway is the cleavage to glyoxylate and aminomethylphosphonic acid (AMPA), that is also biologically degradable (Rueppel et al., 1977).

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Here’s a paper free to access that talks about environmental effects
http://co.water.usgs.gov/midconherb/pdf/WREB_4102_323-332.pdf
Some notable points from it:  “Although glyphosate and (or) AMPA were found in many samples, other herbicides with similar or less total use in the Midwestern United States, such as acetochlor, atrazine, and metolachlor (Figure 1), were often detected more frequently and at higher concentrations (Table 2, Figures 3 and 4). It is probable that glyphosate is not as mobile and is transformed more rapidly in the environment than these other herbicides (Table 1)."
“Glyphosate is considered to be only slightly toxic to birds, fish, and aquatic invertebrates and is not expected to bioconcentrate.”
“It is widely used in no-till agriculture to prepare fields for planting, controlling weeds during crop development, or controlling perennial weeds after crop harvest.”
The bottom line is that it’s much less harmful and found at much lower concentrations than the other, toxic herbicides that are used the same amount or less.
You don’t like corporations and you don’t like herbicides, and neither does Amy Goodman.  I get it.  Well, we can get rid of all the herbicides and the biotech companies altogether to make some people feel better about farms.  But if you want to keep family farmers on their land, then until all the poor folks in the U.S. get to shop at Whole Foods like you do we’re going to have to keep using them.  Why not use the least harmful while we can?
Due to low grain prices in the early ‘90s, my dad sold our machinery, got a job with the USDA (fortunately he had a MA in education which enabled this) and now rents out the fields, although he still lives on the farm.  Today, thanks to yield increases due to this and other genetic modification technologies, added to global economic trends and possibly some early climate change effects causing crop failures abroad (as well as some admittedly misguided grain-for-ethanol mandates), family farmers can actually make a fairly good living. Too late for many of us, however.

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Quite finally, searching  with keywords to get back to this thread, I now see that people have defended real farmers, glyphosate, et cetera many times over the years.  I guess now I’m wondering how much time I should devote to trying to disabuse an anti-science crowd of their Greenpeace notions. (I mean, fluoridation for Pete’s sake?  Since when did the John Birch Society start tricking liberals?) 
I think it will be not a minute more.
 

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Isildur22,
I think you’re lumping an entire set of people who are diverse and of many perspectives, into a model that best fits your bias. That is O.K. My world will not end because of this, and neither will yours. However, there is a hope in me that looking into alternate perspectives might colour your own.

From a logical perspective then, it isn’t a case that - I or anyone else here - can corrupt you, but to aid you in seeing that there are more than two ways to go about your task of teaching the unenlightened enough details for them to go away and find out for themselves.

I am in no doubt to the personally financial - and to the human benefit to a growing population of humanity - to the value of their survival or famine through modern mechanical and fossil fuel produced crop; or indeed the genetic modification of these crops to create greater abundance. However, what with the state of our soon to be obvious global energy constraint emerging far too quickly on the horizon, I must insist you pay more attention to what the outcome is in the long-term of modern agricultural method since the advent of the green revolution in the 1950’s, if the descent of this vital input continues its unstoppable decline.

It is all well and good to talk of such things as modern agricultural method to alay fears in the present, but what is the model of production going to be in the near future, with such price-spikes in fertilizer (natural gas input) of 2008 and 2009 set to continue?

This isn’t a site that wishes to destroy any attempts to prove the benefit of modernity, even if certain types of informed - or disinformed - post ( as is their right in regard to imparciality) on an open public forum. It does not mean that it is the majority of the forum’ opinion that flouridation, the John Birch Society, or even Greenpeace are all our bed-fellows.

As yet again I’ve taken to reply to one of your posts, I’m curious as to whether you have watched through the Crash Course, which is the glue that holds this forum together.

Below are chapters 17 a) b) and c), ripped from You Tube in regard to Peak Oil. However, a greater standard of polish to this series can be found if you go to the top left hand corner of the Home Page to here : -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ni8s7orGZbY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeBtdwPpTQM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6w6gf3tSGTg&feature=relmfu

Paul

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