Next Stop: Recession!

I’ve saved the link to this article (below) for several years and posted it previously as the topic seems to surface on a regular schedule here. The section below is one of my favorites for a glimpse at different personal thought processes on the topic. Likely a good probability, IMO, that the problem “will be solved”, with or without our input, in some manner.

Weisman travels to several countries with moderately to very high fertility rates. When he asks people in these countries what should be done to bring down the numbers, mostly the answer is “Nothing.” In Niger, in the village of Mailafia, he encounters a mother of eight who laments the lack of milk in her town. “All we want is food so we can produce children,” she exclaims. Also in Niger, in the city of Maradi, he meets an imam who tells him, “We know the future is alarming. But man cannot hold back doomsday.” In the Israeli city of Brei Brak, Weisman meets another mother of eight. She tells him she’s not the least bit concerned about the world’s burgeoning population, because “God made the problem, and He will solve it.” At a clinic in Karachi, Pakistan, he meets a technician who refuses to administer the contraceptive injection that one of the clinic’s patients has just been prescribed. “I don’t believe we should practice family planning,” the technician says. “Our community should increase in number.” entire article here: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/10/21/head-count-3#
old guy wrote:
I consider Alexandria Occasio- Cortez's "new green deal" a good example. Apart from the fact that the core of her plan is directed at what I consider a non-problem, her solution would be disastrous beyond belief. It would require government control and intrusion into society and the economy to a totalitarian level. The massive building and rebuilding she proposes over ten years would require more resources than normally used in a hundred years.

Ahem (cough), Old Guy, any evidence to back up those rather grandiose claims?

I thought this summary was interesting…
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/feb/11/green-new-deal-alexandri…

If you don’t see it you are beyond hope.
To understand requires some understanding of economic cause and effect relationships. That seems to be well outside of the Guardian’s grasp.
You can’t explain university level math to someone who doesn’t know grade 6 math.

In what its supporters have claimed is “visionary,” the congressional media darling, Alexandria Occasio-Cortez (AOC) has released her short-awaited Green New Deal , and she has called for nothing short of destruction of life as we have known it:
Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez said she has no qualms about acknowledging a so-called “Green New Deal” will mean unprecedented governmental intrusion into the private sector. Appearing on NPR, she was asked if she’s prepared to tell Americans outright that her plans involve “massive government intervention.”
On one level, AOC is being honest; such a plan would be unprecedented, at least in the United States, but it hardly would be the first government-led massive intrusion into a nation’s economy. The 20 th Century was full of such intervention, beginning with World War I, and continuing through the years of communist governments. The century was full of intervention, and the earth was full of the dead bodies to prove it. What AOC and her political allies, including most Democrats that have declared they will run for the U.S. Presidency, are demanding is the U.S. version of Mao’s utterly-disastrous Great Leap Forward.
For all of the so-called specifics, the Green New Deal (GND) reads like a socialist website which is full of rhetoric, promises, and statements that assume a bunch of planners sitting around tables can replicate a complex economy that feeds, transports, and houses hundreds of millions of people. The New York Times declares the plan to give “ substance to an idea that had been a mostly vague rallying cry for a stimulus package around climate change, but its prospects are uncertain.”
Actually, there is nothing we can call “substance” in this proposal if we mean “substance” to be a realistic understanding that it would be impossible to re-direct via central planning nearly every factor of production in the U.S. economy from one set of uses to another, since that is what the proposed legislation actually requires. For example, the following is what AOC and others call the “scope” of the proposed law:
(A) The Plan for a Green New Deal (and the draft legislation) shall be developed with the objective of reaching the following outcomes within the target window of 10 years from the start of execution of the Plan:
Dramatically expand existing renewable power sources and deploy new production capacity with the goal of meeting 100% of national power demand through renewable sources;
Building a national, energy-efficient, “smart” grid;
Upgrading every residential and industrial building for state-of-the-art energy efficiency, comfort and safety;
Eliminating greenhouse gas emissions from the manufacturing, agricultural and other industries, including by investing in local-scale agriculture in communities across the country;
Eliminating greenhouse gas emissions from, repairing and improving transportation and other infrastructure, and upgrading water infrastructure to ensure universal access to clean water;
Funding massive investment in the drawdown of greenhouse gases;
Making “green” technology, industry, expertise, products and services a major export of the United States, with the aim of becoming the undisputed international leader in helping other countries transition to completely greenhouse gas neutral economies and bringing about a global Green New Deal.
It is hard to know where to begin in analyzing such an ambitious plan, especially when one understands the ramifications of what is in this bill. No doubt, many will believe it to be bold and long overdue. The CNN website breathlessly declares :
Public investments should prioritize what the resolution calls “frontline and vulnerable communities,” which include people in rural and de-industrialized areas as well as those that depend on carbon-intensive industries like oil and gas extraction.
And in a move that may draw support from a broad range of advocacy groups, the resolution sweeps in the full range of progressive policy priorities: Providing universal healthcare and affordable housing, ensuring that all jobs have union protections and family-sustaining wages, and keeping the business environment free of monopolistic competition.
However, CNN adds that the specifics – paying for the whole thing – are not included, at least not yet. In addition, the news organization adds the following for those worried that the entire operation might prove to be prohibitively costly:
… the New Dealers argue that a federally funded energy transition would stimulate growth by providing jobs, improving public health, and reducing waste. In addition, they argue that the government could capture more return on investment by retaining equity stakes in the projects they build.
In other words, this whole operation allegedly will generate so much new wealth that it will pay for itself, lift millions from poverty, and transform the entire U.S. economy. The plan is so generous that it promises an income even to people, according to the Democrat’s press release, who refuse to work still will be provided a “living wage” income.
The plan also is famous not only for what it purports to create (out right utopia) but what it also calls to be banned: cows and airlines. The plan calls for phasing out air travel within a decade to be replaced by a network of high-speed rail, as though this were even feasible. Cows, as the released document acknowledges, have flatulence, so they must be totally eliminated from the earth and meat from the U.S. diet, but there is nothing to address the massive disruption to life as we know it in order to implement such a plan.
Not surprisingly, The Atlantic is nearly breathless with praise for this monstrosity, but even that publication admits that the scale of AOC’s “vision” is beyond anything we ever have seen before:
Yet even in broad language, the resolution clearly describes a transformation that would leave virtually no sector of the economy untouched. A Green New Deal would direct new solar farms to bloom in the desert, new high-speed rail lines to crisscross the Plains, and squadrons of construction workers to insulate and weatherize buildings from Florida to Alaska. It would guarantee every American a job that pays a “family-sustaining wage,” codify paid family leave, and strengthen union law nationwide.
To be honest, “untouched” is not the appropriate term here, as “smashed” or “destroyed” is much more accurate and descriptive. We are not speaking of ordinary government intervention that marks most of the U.S. economy, but does allow for something of a price system to continue to exist. Instead, something of this magnitude would require a complete government takeover with central planning on a scale so huge that it would have to surpass the grandest dreams of the old Soviet Gosplan.
One of the most-asked questions, of course, is: “How do we pay for this?” Perhaps it is natural to ask such things, but we are not speaking of a particular project for which we have to purchase materials and pay those who create it. Instead, this plan would simply redirect nearly every resource, almost all labor, and every other factor of production away from current uses to something as determined by government planners and overlords. There is no other accurate way to describe what we are seeing.
The resolution naively assumes that all that needs to be done is for government to “finance” these projects through huge increases in taxes, borrowing, and (of course) printing money, and that such infusions of money will enable the government to “pay” for all of these new projects as though one were building a new skyscraper in Manhattan:
Many will say, “Massive government investment! How in the world can we pay for this?” The answer is: in the same ways that we paid for the 2008 bank bailout and extended quantitative easing programs, the same ways we paid for World War II and many other wars. The Federal Reserve can extend credit to power these projects and investments, new public banks can be created (as in WWII) to extend credit and a combination of various taxation tools (including taxes on carbon and other emissions and progressive wealth taxes) can be employed.
In addition to traditional debt tools, there is also a space for the government to take an equity role in projects, as several government and government-affiliated institutions already do.
Such statements demonstrate a profound ignorance of even basic economic concepts. The authors and supporters of this document believe that all it will take is for the government to direct massive amounts of money toward these new projects, and everything else will fall into line. But that is not even close to reality, as the only way to redirect such massive amounts of money would be to use force, and deadly force at that.
First, and most important, much of the present capital in the USA is geared toward the kind of economy that AOC and the Democrats demand be made illegal, so huge swaths of the capital stock would have to be abandoned, as little of it could be redirected elsewhere. One cannot overestimate the kind of financial damage that would cause, and it would impoverish much of the country almost overnight.
Second, the entire economy would be required to pivot toward capital development that would not be possible, given current technologies and opportunity costs, to create, especially in the 10-year time frame that the Democrats are demanding. Diverting new streams of finance toward such projects would be useless and even counterproductive, as the system simply would be overwhelmed. It would not be long before scarcity itself would mean that entire projects either would be stalled (like what we see with the infamous “Bullet Train” in California) or even abandoned. The human cost alone would be staggering.
As pointed out at the beginning of this article, for all of the “grand vision” rhetoric that accompanies the rollout of the AOC plan, this is nothing less than an attempt to re-implement Mao’s Great Leap Forward, albeit with high-speed rail instead of backyard steel mills. One cannot overestimate the disaster that would follow if this were forced upon the American economy.
So-called political visionaries rarely are willing to be truthful about the destruction that follows their schemes. When Baby Boomers were in college a half-century ago, many saw Mao as their political hero, a man with great vision who had the political will to do what was necessary to advance the fortunes of his own people. That he was a murderous tyrant who presided over mass death that exceeded even the killings of World War II was irrelevant or even ignored.
Today, we are told by her adoring press that Alexandria Occasio-Cortez is the New Visionary, a person who is far-seeing and knows what we have to do in order to survive the coming consequences of climate change. That her grand vision is little more than a mass-depopulation scheme is ignored, and we ignore it at our peril.

That was a fascinating read, Dennis! The overall population of the world is growing, but that masks the fact that some areas are rapidly growing and others are gradually declining. When overpopulation is discussed as a problem I almost never hear about this. And to make matters worse, most of the people I read or listen to talking about the problem of overpopulation live in a part of the world that has a contracting birth rate. So when “those people” (us!) talk about overpopulation they’re talking about a problem their own country is no longer contributing to! It sure seems a little silly for those of us in the US, Japan, or Western Europe (which have a stable or declining birth rate) to get ourselves all atwitter about overpopulation in Africa or some MIddle Eastern country. Not counting Africa and a few other places where their population is rapidly growing, most of the developed world has a shrinking population (based on birthrate, not factoring immigration). If we’re going to be honest and actually address the REAL problem, shouldn’t we be discussing overpopulation, and what to do about it, in Africa and Pakistan? That would change the whole tenor of the conversation. Personally, since no one in those parts of the world has asked for my opinion or help with overpopulation, I’m inclined to stay out of that discussion.
So when we who live in stable or declining birth rate countries talk about overpopulation we should also have the wisdom to tie that in to a discussion on how to manage societies and economies that have a less-than-replacement birth rate, and a declining and aging population. There are some big, thorny problems there and I don’t know of anybody who has good answers on how to handle the problems that arise in that situation. Wow, I don’t even hear these things being seriously discussed. The nearly universal assumption is that returning to population growth and economic growth is the ONLY possible answer. Japan is probably the preeminent example. Japan’s birth rate is slightly less than China’s, and they don’t have anything like China’s “one child policy.” It’s happening naturally there, and observe how mightily The Elite have been trying to grow their population and economy anyway.
That brings me to immigration. It seems to me that “The Elite” are aware of these problems and have decided that the way to solve the problems created when advanced, prosperous countries naturally go in to population decline is to 1) eradicate the whole concept of nations and borders, and 2) take people from “zones” that have skyrocketing population growth rates and re-settle them in “zones” that are shrinking. That neatly solves the problems created by “zones” which are not growing by skimming off the excess “human carbon units” where it’s too crowded and re-settling them in the shrinking areas. At least that looks like it will kick the can down the road a little longer. If you live in low earth orbit (like The Elite did in the movie “Elysium”) this makes sense and enables The Elite to continue to manage and milk the system as they see fit. But down on the surface of the planet all hell is breaking loose. The carbon units who live in relative comfort in the shrinking population zones generally don’t want to be “invaded” by greedy, starving masses from the overpopulating and poor “zones.” They would rather someone come along and help them manage their declining and aging population with an economic system and form of governance that is NOT built on the assumption of permanent exponential growth. (I think I’ll go invent that and secure my place in history!) The average carbon unit in the declining population zones is not thrilled with large numbers of “invaders” especially if they are a drain on the system instead of net contribution to it as a whole. They probably would appreciate a slow, thoughtful way of metering in carbon units who will legitimately contribute to the society as a whole. I don’t see anything like that in the US, but some places are starting to apply the immigration brakes and demand a better plan than just dumping excess carbon units from other zones and hoping everyone can get along.
Diversity is NOT our strength (at least not automatically and without wise planning and control). I’ve wondered why, if diversity is our strength, no one is demanding that the poorer monocultures of the world become diverse themselves. You know, like Pakistan and Nigeria, for example. Why aren’t there any demands that Pakistan take in large numbers of whites or east asians who are not Muslims? Why aren’t Swedes trying to emigrate to Nigeria? Why do countries like Pakistan and Nigeria have strict border controls? Why is South Africa trying to eliminate it’s white population and return to its historical identity as a monoculture, and why are the diversity advocates remaining silent about that? Why is it that diversity and uncontrolled immigration are only claimed to be an absolute necessity for the more prosperous countries of Europe, the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand? That’s a rhetorical question, because I know the answer. Without asking our opinions or taking a vote, The Elites have decided to rebalance the Earth’s populations as they see fit and in a manner they believe will benefit themselves first and foremost.
Whatever theoretical solutions we could propose for these predicaments, I’m sure The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse are going to end up “solving” these problems for us. The Elites aren’t as smart or as powerful as they imagine, and I’m sure their “project” is going to fail spectacularly eventually.
Wow, that was dark. How about this for a little comic relief?

old guy wrote:
If you don't see it you are beyond hope. To understand requires some understanding of economic cause and effect relationships. That seems to be well outside of the Guardian's grasp. You can't explain university level math to someone who doesn't know grade 6 math.

See, it’s that kind of mud-slinging that, you may find, alienates you even from people who might sympathize with some of your views on this site. You pretty much declare that anyone who disagrees with you is simply an idiot, incapable of obviously rational thought. Beyond that, once you sling mud, most PPers will assume you have no real credible argument to make.

Your opinions are welcome here, but you’re going to be asked for detailed evidence-based rebuttals, so get used to it. Notice how few likes your posts have? That’s not because there is an absence of people who might share some of your views, as much as it is a reflection that many people stopped listening to your posts due to the manner you conduct yourself here sometimes.

Stop being a douchebag, brah.

-S

PS- if you just come back butthurt that I said “douchebag” at you, you missed the point.

Hi Dennis,
thank you so much for your reminder!
I really should have thanked you for posting this article from the Newyorker back in late March 2016, but, it sent me down a rabbit hole, and it seems I’ve only just arrived back up for air.
The October 2013 Newyorker article was written by Elizabeth Kolbert, who later won the 2015 Pulitzer Prize in general nonfiction.
Her book, which I ordered at the time from Amazon was a joy to read, which I almost succeeded doing in a single sitting.
I have just found a pdf copy I’ll link below of the book from Archive.org, to pay you back a kindness - especially for your very timely humor that’s had me laughing often here at Peak Prosperity : -
The Sixth Extinction by Elizabeth Kolbert pdf
Finn

as a teamster/horseman, that was a post worthy of rereading and thoughtful consideration.
robie,husband,father,farmer

DennisC quoting the New Yorker article:

In Niger, in the village of Mailafia, he encounters a mother of eight who laments the lack of milk in her town. “All we want is food so we can produce children,” she exclaims.
Time was when I would have thought this an idiotic point of view, but now I see that it's an entirely rational goal in view of her social and economic circumstances. These people swim in an entirely different cultural river to us, and indeed, an entirely more ancient river. Through much of history the number of one's children has been crucial in determining whether in old age one dies comfortably or starves miserably. I am constantly glad and thankful that I live in a (so far) wealthy country which has systems in place making it unnecessary for me, who lacks children, to dig ditches until I drop dead.
Snydeman wrote:
old guy wrote:
If you don't see it you are beyond hope. To understand requires some understanding of economic cause and effect relationships. That seems to be well outside of the Guardian's grasp. You can't explain university level math to someone who doesn't know grade 6 math.

See, it’s that kind of mud-slinging that, you may find, alienates you even from people who might sympathize with some of your views on this site. You pretty much declare that anyone who disagrees with you is simply an idiot, incapable of obviously rational thought. Beyond that, once you sling mud, most PPers will assume you have no real credible argument to make.

Your opinions are welcome here, but you’re going to be asked for detailed evidence-based rebuttals, so get used to it. Notice how few likes your posts have? That’s not because there is an absence of people who might share some of your views, as much as it is a reflection that many people stopped listening to your posts due to the manner you conduct yourself here sometimes.

Stop being a douchebag, brah.

-S

PS- if you just come back butthurt that I said “douchebag” at you, you missed the point.

Agreed Snydeman, it’s pretty pathetic weak response to a reasonable request for solid evidence. ie Why (so far in his opinion only) will it use up more resources in 10 years compared to the last 100?
Not cool and certainly not in keeping with the ethos of this site. It says a lot about the quality of the “facts” supposedly backing up the points Old Guy attempts to make.
For an “Old Guy”, he certainly displays a distinct lack of maturity and wisdom.

When challenged with the question “how much horsepower can your tractor deliver?” Robie responded by hitching up his team and making a show of it.

* primary rent up 3.4%* medical care up 2.8%* tuition/childcare up 2.8%* drivers’ insurance up 3.4%

That’s a lot of mares to settle…

:stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

JHKunstler, If I remember correctly, described our time as the remedievalization of modernity. “Settling ones mare” is an active choice to avoid the rush towards collapse.

Fed’s plan for the economy, simple and there is only one. Expand the bubble till it pops, it’s the only one in an fiat based banking system. What to do after the pop, easy, when your fiat currency has lost all value,(they all do), replace it with different one, I think it will be based on IMF special drawing rights. Alexandria O-C plan, simple, lie that climate change is based on carbon, ignoring deforestation and geo-engineering purposely so have even more control and regulations to take away even more of our freedom. Alexandria O-C plan for health care. Free health care enslaving us even more in the extortion racket of medical care, ignoring the subsidized sickening of the world with corporate food(subsidized GMO grain production) taking away any personal responsibilty from either the corpations producing our frankstein food supply and individual’s personal’s responsibility’s for making the right choices. With only 3% of our country population producing food and just in time devilery of just about everything, our road will be bumper than we can ever imagine.

For anyone interested.
https://www.thenewamerican.com/tech/environment/item/31472-un-ipcc-scien…

“By putting so much emphasis on climate alarmism and the alleged dangers of CO2, meanwhile, Mörner said the UN has diverted resources and attention away from “all the real problems” of the world that really do exist. “This is a terrible thing, this is the terrible thing,” he said. It is especially sad because “the world is full of real problems” such as hunger, starvation, killings, natural disasters, diseases, and so much more, he said. Yet because of the incessant focus on demonizing CO2 and trying to control “climate,” those very real problems get ignored.”

Old Guy,
I’ll go along with you at this instance and post up an interview I found in PDF of Nils-Axel Mörner, and others here can debate the finer detail within it.
To save people from stepping over the link, I’ve gone to the trouble of spending 20 minutes of my time over-riding the metadata of the pdf so I can copy and paste below.
I’d really appreciate that you at least recognise my time by offering a response that involves communication of some higher order than the pre-chewed fodder you’ve been serving up to date.
I am indeed a real, live, breathing, cognitive, sentient human being behind these words on your screen, and not your mirrored projection.

INTERVIEW: DR. NILS-AXEL MÖRNER Sea-level Expert: It’s Not Rising! Dr. Nils-Axel Mörner has studied sea level and its effects on coastal areas for some 35 years. Recently retired as director of the Paleogeophysics and Geodynamics Department at Stockholm University, Mörner is past president (1999-2003) of the INQUA Commission on Sea Level Changes and Coastal Evolution, and leader of the Maldives Sea Level Project. Mörner was interviewed by Associate Editor Gregory Murphy on June 6. The interview here is abridged; a full version appeared in Executive Intelligence Review, June 22, 2007. Why coastal dwellers should not live in fear of inundation. Question: I would like to start with a little bit about your background. I am a sea-level specialist. There are many good sea-level people in the world, but let’s put it this way: There’s no one who’s beaten me. I took my thesis in 1969, devoted to a large extent to the sea-level problem. From then on I have launched most of the new theories, in the ‘70s, ‘80s, and ‘90s. I was the one who understood the problem of the gravitational potential surface, the theory that it changes with time. I’m the one who studied the rotation of the Earth, how it affected the redistribution of the oceans’ masses. And so on. Sea-level Expert: It’s Not Rising! I was president of INQUA, an international fraternal asso- ciation, their Commission on Sea-Level Changes and Coastal Evolution, from 1999 to 2003. And in order to do something intelligent there, we launched a special international sea-level research project in the Maldives, because that’s the hottest spot on Earth for [this topic]—there are so many variables interacting there, so it was interesting, and also people had claimed that the Maldives—about 1,200 small islands—were doomed to disappear in 50 years, or at most, 100 years. So that was a very important target. I have had my own research institute at Stockholm University, which was devoted to something called paleogeophysics and geodynamics. It’s primarily a research institute, but lots of students came, I have several Ph.D. theses at my institute, and lots of visiting professors and research scientists came to learn about sea level. Working in this field, I don’t think there’s a spot on the Earth I haven’t been in! In the northmost, Greenland; and in Antarctica; and all around the Earth, and very much at the coasts. So I have primary data from so many places, that when I’m speaking, I don’t do it out of ignorance, but on the contrary, I know what I’m talking about. And I have interaction with other scientific branches, because it’s very important to see the problems not just from one eye, but from many different aspects. Sometimes you dig up some very important thing in some geodesic paper which no other geologist would read. And you must have the time and the courage to go into the big questions, and I think I have done that. The last 10 years or so, of course, everything has been the discussion on sea level, which they say is drowning us. In the early ‘90s, I was in Washington giving a paper on how the sea level is not rising, as they said. That had some echoes around the world. Question: What is the real state of the sea-level? You have to look at that in a lot of different ways. That is what I have done in a lot of different papers, so we can confine ourselves to the short story here. One way is to look at the global picture, to try to find the essence of what is going on. And then we can see that the sea level was indeed rising, from, let us say, 1850 to 1930-1940. And that rise had a rate in the order of 1 millimeter per year; 1.1 is the exact figure. Not more. And we can check that, because Holland is a subsiding area; it has been subsiding for many millions of years; and Sweden, after the last Ice Age, was uplifted. So if you balance those, there is only one solution, and it will be this figure.... There’s another way of checking it, because if the radius of the Earth increases as a result of sea level rise, then immediately the Earth’s rate of rotation would slow down. That is a physical law, right? You have it in figure-skating: when skaters rotate very fast, the arms are close to the body; and then when they increase the radius, by putting out their arms, they stop by themselves. So you can look at the rotation and you see the same thing: Yes, it might be 1.1 mm per year, but absolutely not more. It could be less, because there could be other factors affecting the Earth, but it certainly could not be more. Absolutely not! Again, it’s a matter of physics. So, we have this 1 mm per year up to 1930, by observation, and we have it by rotation recording. So we go with those two. They go up and down, but there’s no trend in it; it was up until1930, and then down again. There’s no trend, absolutely no trend. Another way of looking at what is going on is the tide gauge. Tide gauging is very complicated, because it gives different answers for wherever you are in the world. We have to rely on geology when we interpret it. So, for example, those people in the IPCC [Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change], choose Hong Kong, which has six tide gauges, and they choose the record of one, which gives a 2.3 mm per year rise of sea level. Every geologist knows that that is a subsiding area. It’s the compaction of sediment; it is the only record which you should not use. And if that [2.3 mm] figure is correct, then Holland would not be subsiding, it would be uplifting. And that is just ridiculous. Not even ignorance could be responsible for a thing like that. So tide gauges, you have to treat very, very carefully. Now back to satellite altimetry, which shows the water, not just the coasts, but in the whole of the ocean, as measured by satellite. From 1992 to 2002, [the graph of the sea level] was a straight line, variability along a straight line, but absolutely no trend whatsoever. We could see spikes: a very rapid rise, but then in half a year, they fall back again. But absolutely no trend, and to have a sea-level rise, you need a trend. Data Fudged Then, in 2003, the same data set, which in their [IPCC’s] publications, in their website, was a straight line—suddenly it changed, and showed a very strong line of uplift, 2.3 mm per year, the same as from the tide gauge. And that didn’t look so nice. It looked as though they had recorded something, but they hadn’t recorded anything. It was the original data which they suddenly twisted up, because they entered a “correction factor,” which they took from the tide gauge. So it was not a measured thing, but a figure introduced from outside. I accused them of this at the Academy of Sciences meeting in Moscow—I said you have introduced factors from outside; it’s not a measurement. It looks like it is measured from the satellite, but you don’t say what really happened. And they answered, that we had to do it, because otherwise we would not have gotten any trend! That is terrible! As a matter of fact, it is a falsification of the data set. Why? Because they know the answer. And there you come to the point: They “know” the answer; the rest of us, we are searching for the answer. Because we are field geologists; they are computer scientists. So all this talk that sea level is rising, this stems from the computer modelling, not from observations. The observations don't find it! I have been an expert reviewer for the IPCC, both in 2000 and last year. The first time I read it [the report], I was exceptionally surprised. First of all, it had 22 authors, but none of them—none—were sea-level specialists. They were given this mission, because they promised to answer the right thing. Again, it was a computer issue. This is the typical thing: The meteorological community works with computers, simple computers. Geologists don’t do that! We go out in the field and observe, and then we can try to make a model with computerization; but it’s not the first thing. So there we are. Then we went to the Maldives. I traced a drop in sea level in the 1970s, and the fishermen told me, “Yes, you are correct, because we remember”—things in their sailing routes have changed, things in their harbor have changed. I worked in the lagoon, I drilled in the sea, I drilled in lakes, I looked at the shore morphology—so many different environments. Always the same thing: In about 1970, the sea fell about 20 cm, for reasons involving probably evaporation or something. Not a change in volume or something like that—it was a rapid thing. The new level, which has been stable, has notchanged in the last 35 years. You can trace it so very, very carefully. No rise at all is the answer there. The Case of Tuvalu Another famous place is the Tuvalu Islands, which are supposed to soon disappear because they’ve put out too much carbon dioxide. There we have a tide gauge record, a variograph record, from 1978, so it’s 30 years. And again, if you look there, absolutely no trend, no rise. So, from where do they get this rise in the Tuvalu Islands? We know in the Tuvalu Islands that there was a Japanese pineapple industry which extracted too much fresh water from the inland, and those islands have very little fresh water available from precipitation, rain. So, if you take out too much, you destroy the water magazine, and you bring seawater into the magazine, which is not nice. So they took out too much freshwater and in came salt water. And of course the local people were upset. But then it was much easier to say, “No, no! It’s the global sea level rising! It has nothing to do with our extraction of freshwater.” So there you have it. This is a local industry which doesn’t pay. You have Vanuatu, and also in the Pacific, north of New Zealand and Fiji—there is the island Tegua. They said they had to evacuate it, because the sea level was rising. But again, you look at the tide-gauge record: There is absolutely no signal that the sea level is rising. If anything, you could say that maybe the tide is lowering a little bit, but absolutely no rising. And again, where do they [the IPCC] get it from? They get it from their inspiration, their hopes, their computer models, but not from observation, which is terrible. We have Venice. Venice is well known, because that area is tectonically, because of the delta, slowly subsiding. The rate has been constant over time. A rising sea level would immediately accelerate the flooding. And it would be so simple to record it. And if you look at that 300-year record: In the 20th Century it was going up and down, around the subsidence rate. In 1970, you should have an acceleration, but instead, the rise almost finished. So it was the opposite. If you go around the globe, you find no rise anywhere. But they need the rise, because if there is no rise, there is no death threat. They say there is nothing good to come from a sea-level rise, only problems, coastal problems. If you have a temperature rise, if it’s a problem in one area, it’s beneficial in another area. But sea level is the real “bad guy,” and therefore they have talked very much about it. But the real thing is, that it doesn’t exist in observational data, only in computer modelling.... I’ll tell you another thing: When I came to the Maldives, to our enormous surprise, one morning we were on an island, and I said, “This is something strange, the storm level has gone down; it has not gone up, it has gone down.” And then I started to check the level all around, and I asked the others in the group, “Do you see anything here on the beach?” And after a while they found it too. And as we had investigated, and we were sure, I said we cannot leave the Maldives and go home and say the sea level is not rising, it’s not respectful to the people. I have to say it to Maldive television. So we made a very nice program for Maldive television, but it was forbidden by the government (!) because they thought that they would lose money. They accuse the West for putting out carbon dioxide, and therefore we have to pay for our damage and the flooding. So they wanted the flooding scenario to go on. This tree, which I showed in the documentary, is interesting. This is a prison island, and when people left the island, from the ‘50s, it was a marker for them, when they saw this tree alone out there, they said, “Ah, freedom!” ... I knew that this tree was in that terrible position already in the 1950s. So the slightest rise, and it would have been gone. I used it in my writings and for television. You know what happened? There came an Australian sea- level team, which was for the IPCC and against me. Then the students pulled down the tree by hand! They destroyed the evidence. What kind of people are those? And we came to launch this film “Doomsday Called Off,” right after that, and the tree was still green. And I heard from the locals that they had seen the people who had pulled it down. So I put it up again, by hand, and made my TV program.... They call themselves scientists, and they’re destroying evidence! A scientist should always be open forreinterpretation, but you can never destroy evidence. And they were being watched, thinking they were clever. Question: How does the IPCC get these small island nations so worked up about worrying that they’re going to be flooded tomorrow? Because they get support; they get money, so their idea is to attract money from the industrial countries. And they believe that if the story is not sustained, they will lose it. So, they love this story. But the local people in the Maldives—it would be terrible to raise children—why should they go to school, if in 50 years everything will be gone? The only thing you should do, is learn how to swim.... Yes, and it’s much better to blame something else. Then they can wash their hands and say, “It’s not our fault. It’s the U.S., they’re putting out too much carbon dioxide.” Question: Which is laughable, this idea that CO2 is driving global warming. Precisely, that’s another thing. And like this State of Fear [book], by Michael Crichton, when he talks about ice. Where is ice melting? Some Alpine glaciers are melting, others are advancing. Antarctic ice is certainly not melting; all the Antarctic records show expansion of ice. Greenland is the dark horse here for sure; the Arctic may be melting, but it doesn’t matter, because they’re already floating, and it has no effect. A glacier like Kilimanjaro, which is important, on the Equator, is only melting because of deforestation. At the foot of the Kilimanjaro, there was a rain forest; from the rain forest camemoisture, from that came snow, and snow became ice. Now, they have cut down the rain forest, and instead of moisture, there comes heat; heat melts the ice, and there’s no more snow to generate the ice. So it’s a simple thing, but has nothing to do with temperature. It’s the misbehavior of the people around the mountain. So again, it’s like Tuvalu: We should say this is deforestation, that’s the thing. But instead they say, “No, no, it’s global warming!” Question: Here, over the last few days, there was a group that sent out a power- point presentation on melting glaciers, and how this is going to raise sea level and create all kinds of problems. The only place that has that potential is Greenland, and Greenland east is not melting; Greenland west, the Disco Bay is melting, but it has been melting for 200 years, at least, and the rate of melting decreased in the last 50-100 years. So, that’s another falsification. But more important, in the last 5,000 years, the whole of the Northern Hemisphere experienced warming, the Holocene Warm Optimum, and it was 2.5 degrees warmer than today. And still, no problem with Antarctica, or with Greenland; still, no higher sea level Observations Vs. Computer Models Question: These scare stories are being used for political purposes. Yes. Again, this is for me, the line of demarcation between the meteorological community and us: They work with computers; we geologists work with observations, and the observations do not fit with these scenarios. So what should you change? We cannot change observations, so we have to change the scenarios! Instead of doing this, they give an endless amount of money to the side which agrees with the IPCC. The European Community, which has gone far in this thing: If you want a grant for a research project in climatology, it is written into the document that there must be a focus on global warming. All the rest of us, we can never get a coin there, because we are not fulfilling the basic obligations. That is really bad, because then you start asking for the answer you want to get. That’s what dictatorships did, autocracies. They demanded that scientists produce what they wanted.... You frighten a lot of scientists. If they say that climate is not changing, they lose their research grants. And some people cannot afford that; they become silent, or a few of us speak up, because we think that it’s for the honesty of science, that we have to do it. Question: In one of your papers, you mentioned how the expansion of sea level changed the Earth’s rotation into different modes—that was quite an eye-opener. Yes, but it is exceptionally hard to get these papers published also. The publishers compare it to IPCC’s modelling, and say, “Oh, this isn’t the IPCC.” Well, luckily it’s not! But you cannot say that.... When I became president of the INQUA Commission on Sea-Level Change and Coastal Evolution, we made a research project, and we had this up for discussion at five international meetings. And all the true sea level specialists agreed on this figure, that in 100 years, we might have a rise of 10 cm, with an uncertainty of plus or minus 10 cm—that’s not very much. [See Figure 3, p. 32.] And in recent years, I even improved it, by considering also that we’re going into a cold phase in 40 years. That gives 5 cm rise, plus or minus a few centimeters. That’s our best estimate. But that’s very, very different from the IPCC statement. Ours is just a continuation of the pattern of sea level going back in time. Then you have absolutely maximum figures, like when we had all the ice in the vanishing ice caps that happened to be too far south in latitude after the Ice Age. You have more melting than after the Ice Age. You reach up to 10 mm per year—that was the super-maximum: 1 meter in 100 years.... People have been saying, 1 meter, 3 meters. It’s not feasible! These are figures which are so large, that only when the ice caps were vanishing, did we have those types of rates. They are absolutely extreme.... We are basing ourselves on the observations—in the past, in the present, and then predicting it into the future, with the best of the “feet on the ground” data that we can get, not from the computer. Question: Isn’t some of what people are talking about just shoreline erosion, as opposed to sea-level rise? Yes, and I have very nice pictures of it. If you have a coast, with some stability of the sea level, the waves make a kind of equilibrium profile—what they are transporting into the sea and what they are transporting onshore. If the sea rises a little, yes, it attacks, but the attack is not so vigorous. On the other hand, if the sea goes down, it is eating away at the old equilibrium level. There is a much larger redistribution of sand. We had an island, where there was heavy erosion, every- thing was falling into the sea, trees and so on. But if you looked at what happened: The sand which disappeared there, if the sea level had gone up, that sand would have been placed higher, on top of the previous land. But it is being placed below the previous beach. We can see the previous beach, and it is 20-30 cm above the current beach. So this is erosion because the sea level fell, not because the sea level rose. And it is more common that erosion is caused by a falling sea level, than by a rising sea level.
Finn

am highly unconvinced. Given the nature that the glaciers I am aware of are melting, not growing; and given the nature that the Northwest Passage opened up about five years ago (thus eliminating resistance to more glacial seaward travel); and given the nature of the problems polar bears are having; and given the nature of the calving down in antarctica…and given the LOCAL anecdotal evidence (admittedly) that Tangier Island near me is slipping away…
…his conclusion that sea levels will drop is QUITE unconvincing.
NOW…
Given also the nature that New American is a publication of a political (that is, a government-lobbyist) organization, I refer you back to your own thesis that I identified and affirmed:
“government can’t do science”.
Has it never occurred to you that corporations have governance too? And that they, just as parents, act as governments as well? And that they have their own voices, even as the US government has its own media, its own spokes people, and its own politicians?

https://skepticalscience.com/sea-level-not-rising-intermediate.htm
The claim sea level isn’t rising is based on blatantly doctored graphs and conspiracy theories that are contradicted by empirical observational data.

Climate Myth...

Sea level is not rising "Together, these two unaltered [sea level] datasets indicate that global mean sea level trend has remained stable over the entire period 1992-2007, altogether eliminating the apparent 3.2 mm/year rate of sea-level rise arising from the “adjusted” data." (Christopher Monckton)

Most claims that sea level is not rising are based on arguments made by Nils-Axel Mörner (i.e. see here). Figure 1 shows the mean global sea level data whose accuracy Mörner denies:

Figure 1: University of Colorado global mean sea level time series (with seasonal signal removed)
Mörner claims that the “true experts” think this data is wrong (emphasis added):

"The world’s true experts on sea level are to be found at the INQUA (International Union for Quaternary Reseach) commission on Sea Level Changes and Coastal Evolution (of which I am a former president), not at the IPCC. Our research is what the climate lobby might call an ‘inconvenient truth’: it shows that sea levels have been oscillating close to the present level for the last three centuries. This is not due to melting glaciers: sea levels are affected by a great many factors, such as the speed at which the earth rotates. They rose in the order of 10 to 11cm between 1850 and 1940, stopped rising or maybe even fell a little until 1970, and have remained roughly flat ever since."
This is quite different from the INQUA official position on climate change, which opens by saying (emphasis added):
Climate change is real There is now strong evidence that significant global warming is occurring. The evidence comes from direct measurements of rising surface air temperatures and subsurface ocean temperatures and, indirectly, from increases in average global sea levels, retreating glaciers, and changes in many physical and biological systems. It is very likely that most of the observed increase in global temperatures since the mid-twentieth century is due to human-induced increases in greenhouse gas concentrations in the atmosphere (IPCC 2007).
As George Monbiot has documented, INQUA has been trying to dissociate itself from Mörner's views.
Current president of the INQUA commission on Coastal and Marine Processes, Professor Roland Gehrels of the University of Plymouth, says his view do not represent 99% of its members, and the organisation has previously stated that it is "distressed" that Mörner continues to falsely "represent himself in his former capacity."
Tuvalu is among the various individual locations Mörner focuses on in his attempt to distract from global sea level rise. However, it is a rather poor choice, since sea level rise around Tuvalu is faster than the global average (Figure 2). Figure 2: Map of the Pacific Island region interannual sea level trend (linear variation with time) from the reconstruction 1950-2009. Locations of the 27 tide gauges (black circles and stars) used in the study are superimposed. Stars relate to the 7 tide gauges used in the global reconstruction. Dark areas relate to non-significant trends. From Becker (2011). So how does Mörner explain the global sea level rise record, in which both satellite altimeters and tide gauges show average global sea level rise on the order of 3 mm per year (Figure 1)? It's all a conspiracy, of course:
"In 2003 the satellite altimetry record was mysteriously tilted upwards to imply a sudden sea level rise rate of 2.3mm per year...This is a scandal that should be called Sealevelgate. As with the Hockey Stick, there is little real-world data to support the upward tilt. It seems that the 2.3mm rise rate has been based on just one tide gauge in Hong Kong"
Obviously this conspiracy theory is utterly absurd, and is easily disproven by simply examining the IPCC Third Assessment Report (TAR) published in 2001, two years before Mörner's accusation of falsified sea level data, which shows an approximately 10 to 15 mm rise in average global sea level from 1993 to 1998 (Figure 3). Figure 3: Global mean sea level variations (light line) computed from the TOPEX/POSEIDON satellite altimeter data compared with the global averaged sea surface temperature variations (dark line) for 1993 to 1998. The seasonal components have been removed from both time-series. (IPCC TAR) In short, Mörner's conspiracy theory and accusation of falsified data is complete nonsense. It's also ironic that Mörner accuses others of falsifying data, since he has previously doctored photographs in his own presentations (i.e. see multiple photos of the Maldives 'marker tree' spliced together here and here). However, even if we disregard the satellite altimetry data and instead examine the tide gauge data that Mörner prefers, his assertions are still clearly false. Church and White (2011) examined sea level data from both tide gauges (TGs), satellite altimeter data (Sat-Alt), and the estimated contribution to the sea level rise from various sources (Figure 4). The net estimated mean sea level rise from tide gauges and satellites is essentially the same. Figure 4: The observed sea level using coastal and island tide gauges (solid black line with grey shading indicating the estimated uncertainty) and using TOPEX/Poseidon/Jason‐1&2 satellite altimeter data (dashed black line). The two estimates have been matched at the start of the altimeter record in 1993. Also shown are the various components contributing to sea level rise (Church and White 2011) Rather than being flat since 1970, as Mörner claimed in The Spectator article, mean sea level has risen more than 80mm over that period, according to tide gauges. In fact, not only is global mean sea level data rising, but the rise is accelerating. Highlighting the degree to which his arguments are divorced from reality, in testimony to the British House of Lords, Mörner even presented this laughable graph (which was later reproduced by Monckton and the SPPI), simply rotating Figure 1 to produce "the evidence that sea level is not rising" (Figure 5). bizarro sea level Figure 5: Tilted global sea level data produced by Monckton and Mörner in the SPPI Monthly CO2 Report for January 2011 Nils-Axel Mörner's claims regarding sea level rise are the very definition of denial, involving nothing more than conspiracy theories and unsubstantiated accusations of data falsification wich are easily proven untrue. The mainstream media needs to realize that Mörner is simply not a credible source of information about sea level rise or climate science in general. One individual's unsupported conspiracy theories do not trump empirical observational data. Intermediate rebuttal written by dana1981 Update July 2015: Here is a related lecture-video from Denial101x - Making Sense of Climate Science Denial

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