Summary: Before my involvement in the mental health system I was a straight-A student, an accomplished musician on two instruments, and a fit athlete in 3 sports. After my involvement with the mental health system, I struggled to finish school and keep a job while being drugged for 23 years. My life is infinitely better now since I stopped taking the drugs 6.5 years ago.
My story: Everything looked really good for the first 13 years of my life. I was a good student, musician, and athlete. The prospects for my future were bright. People really believed in me. However, I was carrying a lot of hurt from having been sexually abused when I was little and I never got to heal from that hurt because I had to hide it. Despite my best efforts, the hurt did begin to show and developed into some rigid patterns of behavior. Eventually those patterns received a label from the mental health system (OCD) and with the label came drugs. Within 6 months of starting the drugs, I was in a psychiatric hospital for 3 months, and was then drugged heavily for 23 years. My confidence in myself eroded as I struggled to finish school and keep a job. The understanding of myself that I was smart and capable was slowly replaced by the idea that I was fragile and things were too much for me. I kept trying to move forward without even realizing that I was missing something- the internal reference point of who I am.
It took me a long time to unlearn the misinformation promoted by the system and to understand that not only that the drugs were interfering with my ability to function, but they were what had caused the “breakdown” in the first place. Haldol is, as a friend of mine likes to say, is a “lobotomy in a pill.” Once I realized that the drugs had caused the hospitalization, I wanted them out of my body immediately. Fortunately I had people in my life who helped me figure out how to taper slowly, so that I could handle the resurgence of feelings that often come with withdrawal.
As I tapered, I found that when I was down to the last 50 mg, things started to change that I hadn’t expected. I had spent decades struggling to sleep on a regular schedule which made it hard to show up for school and for work. But suddenly my sleep schedule normalized on it’s own. I could also feel connected in my heart again. It is so much more than the intellectual understanding I had relied on for so many years. And the joy of learning returned. My mind made leaps and connections in a way I didn’t realize was possible.
6.5 years later, life is infinitely better without the drugs. I don’t pretend that this is easy. It’s not. But I have built a support network of over 30 people over the last 9 years. I am working full time. I have my own apartment. I am working on my health project, which is digging myself out of the physical consequences of the drugs, which included a 200lb weight gain. Turns out that SSRIs interfere with the brain’s ability to synthesize serotonin, and guess what helps the brain synthesize serotonin? Sugar. It’s not a mistake that I became addicted to sugar. I am down 60 lbs, and have a ways to go, but have discovered that I enjoy distance swimming and up until a recent knee injury was swimming a mile regularly a couple times a week.
For me, the central piece of building resiliency in my life has been reclaiming my mind and body from the effects of the oppressive systems with which I have had contact. I may not be wealthy in the sense of having a huge bank account. I may still be a large woman, and to look at me you wouldn’t probably think much of me. But having my mind fully makes all else possible. If we want to be able to steer the collapse of society in the direction of liberation, or as Chris likes to say “create a world worth inheriting,” we actually need as many people as possible to have our minds.
Looking at the longterm Xanax graph I kept thinking about RoundUp. Monsanto’s supplied science was cherry picked too.
Hi Yagasjai,
Thank you for sharing your story with us. For me, what stands out for me from your words is this:
I kept trying to move forward without even realizing that I was missing something- the internal reference point of who I am.You name it took you a long time to unlearn what you had been told. It sounds like your unlearning was a gradual process and I am curious if there were any key pieces of information, writers etc that contributed to this journey for you. For me, the key to any healing journey is recovering our own internal reference point in not just the mind but also the body. This leads to a total reclaiming of our own sense of agency ("I can") and autonmomy. Tracking and witnessing our thoughts is a beginning point for many people. Bringing that into literally occupying our own body is key which is what I believe Qi Gong offers, We have to address both our thoughts which are indicative of our identities and survival strategies as well as our absence from our bodies. As Chris alluded to above, Larry Heller, creator of NARM and author of Healing Developmental Trauma, has figured out how to facilitate this real-time mind-body integration with people. A bunch of us aorund the world are really running with what he has created to do everything we can (training practitioners, doing research, expanding the modality) to reach as many people as possible.. Larry measures well-being by asking us to consider how much our well-being is dependent on what's happening in our environment. Am I dependent on the environment around me to feel okay? Peak Prosperity offers another way of approaching that same question. Resilience has many components and a sense of agency and choice in the face of anything that happens is the foundation to that resilience. I will be at the Peak Prosperity seminar this weekend and I look forward to many rich conversations in this realm.
I wonder how many people listening to this podcast are on drugs that keep them calm enough that they are able to stay at home with their families instead of being incarcerated? I hope that they will not flush the pills away based upon what they have heard on this podcast. For some families the choice is keeping their family members (mostly male, by the way) on some sort of drug or turning them over to the criminal “justice” system. Hey, you nice middle class people, did you know that there is no mental health system? Not really. Just as prison guards are one click away from the inmates, most shrinks are one click away from their patients. And they are all hooked up with the insurance companies and the police. I for one am thankful that there are calming drugs. They are better than nothing. I am very hopeful that the de-criminalization of MJ will allow many stressed out, alienated men and women to get off of the SSRIs. In the meanwhile, be careful what advice you hand out. Please.
I really enjoy PP quite a bit. There are a lot of good minds here & a lot of folks that are striving for this world to be a better place. However, occasionally there are times when these podcasts & such start veering off the road a tad too much. I agree with a lot of what folks in this thread have said in regards to the more psychologically based issues & a very holistic & much less medicated route, but to mix those issues up with these other very clearly serious & potentially serious diseases not fully responsible.
What data are you operating from? It must be vastly different? Is this a completely untrustworthy journal? A really bad study?
What's wrong with bringing this information up for discussion? What possible benefit do you think there is for hiding this data from people?
Seriously, nobody here is giving advice or saying that mental health issues are not complex and we agree that they are poorly supported in the US culture. Given that, how is it irresponsible to share the data like adults and discuss it?
By the way this topic is very much on the reservation for this site, especially given the levels of stress and discomfort on the way...wouldn't you agree?
My reason for bringing this up is precisely because we have so-called experts saying we should not have a discussion about all this, that they need to be the gatekeepers and that we should trust them, when in fact many of them have violated the most basic precept of the Hippocratic Oath: they have applied treatments that have not accelerated the natural rate of healing.
I love the idea of preventive care, and also fits in here at PP perfectly. Don't mask the symptoms, roll up your sleeves, figure out what is actually wrong (or might go wrong), and then treat that.
To me that's a lot more responsible than hiding the conversation and then providing easy pills.
As I mentioned very early on in this thread it’s great that this topic is being talked about. Discussion is good. However I do have an issue with people talking in a very definitive fashion about something they may have done a fair amount of research on but clearly have limitations in their expertise.
You bring up the man with “Schizophrenia”. Well, schizophrenia is actually a spectrum of disease that comes in many different flavors and there’s actually some crossover to bipolar disorder. Again, I’m not a psychiatrist so I can’t speak with 100% clear certainty, but a likely explanation is that there are multiple mechanisms which cause these illnesses. So, for a broad swath of patients they have the more run of the mill within the bell curve variety of schizophrenia & most behave the same without treatment & respond very similarly to various forms of treatment. Their diagnoses are going to be closer to slam dunks. Then, you have the people who the outliers outside the bell curve. Their flavor of disease is going to be different, it’s probably going be less or more episodic, and needs to be treated in a completely different fashion than the majority of the mainstream patients. Their symptoms may only be consistent with a smaller subset of symptoms than the mainstream group. Remember, these diagnoses are from clinical symptoms, not specific blood tests or CT scans; meaning it can be a fuzzy science when it comes to diagnosing someone & mistakes are trgoing to happen. There are other similar diagnoses such as schizoaffective disorder, etc. To keep things simple people tend to think about Schizophrenia in a very black & white way when the reality is there is every shade of gray in between
As time goes on there have efforts to break down these spectrums of disease for bipolar disorder & schizophrenia into multiple subtypes. However, the reality is the spectrums are broad and subtle, trying to quantify the differences from one patient to the next is nearly impossible.
So, schizophrenia is not schizophrenia is not schizophrenia necessarily, and same thing goes for bipolar disorder.
My point with all of this is that comments regarding possible stopping of medications without clearly prefacing the comments by saying confer with your physician after you’ve done your research is not wise IMHO. In all do respect to your guest, I clearly get the sense he knows a fair amount about mental health care and has a fair knowledge of psychoactive medications, he appears to have great intentions, but he doesn’t know as much as he purports in this podcast. Usually this not a problem, but sometimes people hear these things & think it is best to stop medications for some of these very serious illnesses on their own volition. That’s what I have problem with. I’ve seen first hand & the results can be devastating, no exaggeration.
rheba,
I hear you. What I can say from my own experience and from knowing others is that the slower you go the easier it is on the mind and body. I don’t think anyone is advocating that people flush their pills. I personally know several people who have killed themselves because of irresponsible sudden changes to their dosages. The point is not to stop taking the drugs suddenly. Anyone looking for more information about how to taper slowly may want to start here.
https://withdrawal.theinnercompass.org/
As you point out, we live in an oppressive system which sets people up to not have any other options. When the system can blame the biochemistry for people’s problems, it distracts us from noticing and organizing together against the systemic forces that are crushing people. It’s convenient for the system to get us all to think that something is wrong with us or our neurotransmitters. It keeps us confused about the real issues that need to be addressed. That is why I appreciate that CM and others are raising this issue. What would have to be true if the drugs were not necessary? What are the implications about our society that would have to change?
Suzie,
You asked what key pieces of information, writers, etc contributed to this journey.
- Having someone in my life who stopped taking psychiatric drugs (she had been on 2 for 3 years) and could hold the perspective that the drugs were not necessary without beating me over the head or being urgent about it.
- Reading the book, “Your Drug May Be Your Problem” by Peter Breggin. Key points:
The drugs cause side effects which can look like new symptoms that can seem to require more drugs.
When the drugs are withdrawn there is a “rebound effect”, which often scare the doctor and patient into concluding that the drugs were necessary in the first place or that more are needed now.
The combination of these two things can trap people on drugs for life.
I still didn’t think I would be ok without the drugs after reading that book but did understand that any movement I could make in that direction would be a good thing. I did slowly taper from 300 to 50 mg over about 3 years.
3) Reading another book by Peter Breggin called, “The Anti-Depressant Fact Book: What Your Doctor Won’t Tell You about SSRIs.” That book gave me a better picture of how all of these different side effects had been ascribed to there being something wrong with me. And it was in the midst of that reading, that I finally understood that the “breakdown” had been caused by the drugs. Once I got that, there was no turning back.
4) Building resource. This one is hard for those of us who are/were on psychiatric drugs, because most of us end up involved with the mental health system because we are isolated and don’t have any other resource in the first place. But when you dial down the drugs, you have to dial up connection. For me this has meant being involved in community projects, playing piano, doing peer counseling, and moving my body. It will be different for each person, but the withdrawal symptoms don’t lend themselves to making friends. It’s best to set up as much support as possible well in advance of the taper.
dryam-
I don’t mean to speak for Chris or anything, but I think he’s asking to have a discussion based on data.
Usually data comes in the form of a table, or a chart. If you aren’t providing a table or a chart, it is unlikely you are bringing this “data” to the discussion, and instead are relying on argument-by-anecdote and/or an appeal to the authority of your credential.
And I definitely got the sense Chris was suggesting that, instead of starting on a drug regimen, you might want to consult the data yourself, rather than relying on the current crop of professionals who appear to rely on poor data which - accidentally, I’m sure - just happens to benefit the bottom line of the drug companies.
Lastly, I got the sense Chris was suggesting that, if you had an issue, you might want to try - first - getting to the root cause of whatever problem you’re having, rather than jumping right into covering up the symptoms with the mind-altering, addictive, and highly profitable medication.
Which from what I can see (and here comes an anecdote rather than actual data) appears to be the current standard of care at this point in time.
Of course, once you’re addicted to the mind-altering meds - that’s another thing entirely. And I don’t think either Chris, or the guest, were rendering an opinion on what you should do at that point. I do think its a fair point that simply quitting cold turkey could lead to all sorts of problems. As many of the others here have pointed out.
What a quagmire. I still can’t believe we’ve prescribed this stuff for babies, whose brains won’t be fully formed for another 20+ years. Heaven only knows what this stuff does to kids. Perhaps, like the tobacco companies, they want their “customers” to start as young as possible.
Now we’re introducing the topic of giving babies psychoactive drugs??? Who in the world is a proponent of that?
There are a lot of highly intelligent people on this site including you Dave, Chris, this guest speaker, etc. I totally get your “data-centric perspective. I live a data-centric professional career in medicine for the past 22 years. It’s called evidence based medicine. If I don’t have strong evidence from solid studies, typically double blinded randomized studies with a fair number of participants, then I don’t do it. Unfortunately not everything in medicine has or can be studied in this fashion. Most good doctors have practiced medicine this way over the past 25+ years. We are not just shooting from the hip based of anecdotes. TTrying to have a “data” based discussion on pretty much the entire realm of psychiatry in a forum like this is fruitless. Data is absolutely essential. All I can is that some people here simply don’t know what they are talking about, and I don’t mean that in an offensive way. All I can tell you is I have many years of practice in internal medicine & we see an extraordinary amount of psychiatric disease, my family has had many direct experiences with severe psychiatric disease, and I’ve had a personal interest in psychology/psychiatry going back 25+ years. I honestly don’t have time to argue “data” on this topic. I’ve only had 4 days off in the past 6 weeks from work the past 6 weeks, as in 38 out of the past 42 days. The only reason I chimed in at all is because of genuine concern not because I was trying to beat my chest & show I know more than anyone else. This is an issue that I hold dear to my heart. I must go to work now.
Btw, if you want to have that “data” discussion with a highly knowledgeable, articulate, highly compassionate doctor, who is extremely entertaining as a bonus, who’s goal & passion in life is the reshape our terrible healthcare system, then invite ZDoggMD for a podcast. He’ll give you plenty of data, context for that data, nuances in what that data means or doesn’t mean, and on & on. But, if you want these discussions limited to non-medical people you can do that too. It’s your website. I very much think your subscribers would enjoy it.
“Shutting down conversation”?
I have not read anyone say that here and if you think that is my intent, that would be incorrect. I think this is a great topic & quite happy it was brought up, like I’ve mentioned before. Mental illness & the so-called Mental Healthcare system is quite poor. I’m all about pursuing changes.
Btw, I’m an internist and have been quite happy with the discussions on diet, importance on overall health, the neglect of the healthcare system has given to diet. Most thoughtful doctors are totally onboard.
Comparing a topic such as nutrition to mental health is just plain wrong. I will respectfully agree to disagree with you. I mean no disrespect in any of my comments. Again, I think PP is one of the best websites on the web.
Btw, I don’t take ideas counter to mine personally. My feathers are not ruffled.
Keep up the conversation, by all means.
Here is a podcast talking with Kelly Brogan as she is a practicing Psychiatrist that is practicing with the knowing that prescribing meds in a traditional sense is malpractice, and just bad for patients.
https://charleseisenstein.net/podcasts/new-and-ancient-story-podcast/kel…
- The quantification of symptoms (they are bad) 2. Diagnosis of the neurochemistry imbalance (you feel this way because we’ve discovered what chemical isn’t in balance and it is wrong and for you to get better this one or two values needs to be changed) 3. Treatment thru pharmacology (Forcing the body into a different reality based on some quantifying beings (scientist) determination that it is better to change things with drugs rather than with experience or environmental influence) 4. Follow up applications with more pharmaceuticals (because now to stay within the guidelines the use of more pharmaceuticals is required to deal with symptoms that arise from the use of pharmaceuticals. 5. The patient is now better because the consciousness has been decreased to the point where they have stopped complaining, yet living mostly with the same experiences. 6. Celebrate and pat yourself on your back for breaking a person down into discernable parts where each one can be measured manipulated and made to work how our expectations are of them.
My suggestion for you is if you don’t want to follow this script - choose a medical practitioner that prescribes new experiences pared with new and better information as the primary medicine.
It seems to me that there are three problems with a website that promotes and requires that discussions be backed by only DATA.
First, with the advent of the internet data can be cherry picked. Just google climate change and there is data supporting both sides.
Second when the discussion narrows to a data only thread, we all lose as it becomes a win-lose contest —see my data is better!
Third, what is often lacking are conversations where deep thinking takes place and IDEAS are discussed. These types of discussions are much more difficult and time consuming. They are not the I win you lose quick and easy ones and a bonus would be a greater variety of people could participate than just data geeks.
Lastly I have no doubt I will get blasted by group-think. But remember no one has cornered the market on the truth and everyone has a different perception. I find discussions are often unwelcoming here.
AKGrannyWGrit
I think that there is a special stigma surrounding mental health problems. Most people who are taking drugs are ashamed and desperate to get off them and often do not admit that there is anything wrong. They are constantly mocked, especially by the more libertarian bloggers, for being on Prozac etc. There also are side effects as we all admit. Because of all this I am of the opinion that a responsible mental health practitioner should be very careful to not join in the derision. I thought that there was a derisive tone to the presentation. The speaker did say “Don’t do nothing” but only in passing.
This in not as innocent as telling people to stockpile food and advising them on emotional resilience. It is not even like discussing whether people should eat only fat or give vaccinations to themselves and their children. We can agree or disagree about all or some of those things. But mentally ill people are especially vulnerable to the opinions of people they respect and discussion is hard for them or they would not be in this situation in the first place. (Just for your information, you have at least one listener who is off his meds as a result of this podcast.)
One hundred years ago people were locked away for their whole lives in madhouses because of their inability to behave themselves. Say if you will that society should be more tolerant. It should. And some people should not have been locked away (many of them women) But a lot of behaviors really are intolerable. (I am not talking about children here but about adults. ) As a result of anti-psychotic drugs many people are able to lead relatively normal lives. I know a lot of them. I hope that some of you have read the Professor and the Madman. Here is the description from Amazon “The Professor and the Madman, masterfully researched and eloquently written, is an extraordinary tale of madness, genius, and the incredible obsessions of two remarkable men that led to the making of the Oxford English Dictionary.”
If the data tells us that, long term, people do better with placebo than with the drug, I think that’s a really important thing to know.
And if for some reason that chart isn’t saying what we think its saying, that would be good to talk about.
Ideally, we should have this kind of information for all drugs that someone proposes that we take for years at a time. What are the long term consequences? What percentage of people experience them? How well does it work? Does it work at all?
Aren’t these reasonable questions to ask? Perhaps - to demand?
It is our life, after all.
In my experience in dealing with the healthcare system, they don’t tend to supply data. At least, it hasn’t happened yet. I live in hope that someday, I’ll engage with a healthcare system where the doctor plugs in my stats into an app, and then shows me a chart and says “here’s what we’ve seen this drug do for people like you” both short term, and longer term, and then lets me make the decision.
And if we can have that side by side with “placebo” as well as “no medication”, then it would just be perfect.
“So can I get a prescription for some of that ‘placebo’ stuff? It looks mighty good to me…”
And whle we are imagining a real health care system, why not add in things like exercise, diet, and meditation while we’re at it? Some conditions (probably) won’t benefit from these types of interventions, but others presumably would benefit a lot.
If you take a pill, you get this range of outcomes - and these side effects.
If you exercise and meditate (relatively faithfully), you’ll get these range of outcomes, and no side effects.
And that’s just restricting ourselves to “the mechanical universe” range of options. We could add in prayer. Rumor is, that helps outcomes too. And then we can add in the range of woo woo treatments too. Why not? Shouldn’t they get equal billing? If they don’t work, we should find out. If the DO work, then for sure we should find that out too.
Wouldn’t it be fun to build a system like that?
I believe you worked for Pfizer. What was your job there and what are your experiences working on the “other side”