Gill -Ha! Right you are. Grover isn't saying what I thought he was saying; something in my brain tripped when I saw his example, and I got over-focused on the metaphor.
Thanks for explaining!
I'll have to think more upon this. At the core of the whole issue is, someone has to act as the adult saying "no" - either by levying a whopping fee for acting badly, or by prohibiting something entirely. But any way you slice it, no matter what regime you put in place be it penalty-based or regulatory, a corrupt instrumentality will allow the company to minimize its costs through bribery.
So corruption - especially the systemic kind - is the core issue.
Dave wrote:
My vote for understatement of the year. Jan
"… Not everyone is an entirely rational actor, and for some reason, some of the people that crawl to the top in our society tend to be…a bit sociopathic…"
I think that Dave and I have exhausted our review of this issue. We're on opposite banks of a deep and treacherous ravine. (Dave, please correct me if I'm wrong.) I think Dave believes the system is working but needs a few tweaks to function optimally. I think the whole system needs to be junked and replaced with something that allows industry to pay as they go.
I used to believe something similar to Dave's position. I've been jilted and no longer believe that the status quo is possible … or even desirable. We can't switch paradigms until they fail. As such, my solution will seem extreme as long as there is hope that we can save our beliefs.
I expect that the current system will fail miserably! If it fails soon enough, we'll have sufficient surplus energy to rebuild the systems upon which we rely. If so, consider my proposal as a stepping stone. If the current system outlives the energy surplus, hard decisions will need to be made. All communities will be localized. Your voice (or lack thereof) could propel or retard the success of your local community.
Weigh your position carefully and continually. I wish you the best of luck.
Grover
Grover -That's an interesting summary. It tells me I'm not communicating effectively.
If you could help me out, and point out where I gave you the impression that "the system just needs a few tweaks", it would be quite helpful…because I did NOT mean to leave you with that impression.
Until we address the issues of systemic corruption, nothing will work.
Dave,
Corruption was one of the issues I think you feel needs to be resolved. I agree to a point. I don't think it can be removed from the current system. There is just too much money at stake. I'm for severe criminal penalties for violating the law. Unfortunately, the perp needs to be caught, tried, convicted, sentenced, and run through all the appeals before justice can be carried out. These people have oodles of money and use it to game the system. That won't change.
The reason I said "minor tweaks" was because I think you see the general fabric of the system working if we can only plug the holes. Some of the holes are considerably sized. Nonetheless, once plugged, the system won't be that different from what we see today - only functioning.
I think the vast majority of the population generally sides with your view. It doesn't make it right, but it makes it politically probable. (The earth used to be the center of the universe, too.)
About 40 years ago, I was at a carnival and got sucked into one of the games of skill - throwing darts at a grid of numbers. I wanted a new transistor radio (~$40) and there was a nice one available for someone who could get 100 points. Three darts cost $0.50 and had to be thrown with a single motion. The first throw was free. I got 40 points on the first throw. I plunked down a dollar and got 18 more points. With each dollar, the points awarded diminished. I spent more than $20 before I realized I never would get those last few points. I had been had!
The Carney used my greed against me. It ended up costing me a couple of days of wages, but the bite that stung the most was realizing that I allowed myself to be suckered. It turned out to be one of the cheapest lessons I ever learned.
Grover
[quote=Grover]About 40 years ago, I was at a carnival and got sucked into one of the games of skill - throwing darts at a grid of numbers. I wanted a new transistor radio (~$40) and there was a nice one available for someone who could get 100 points. Three darts cost $0.50 and had to be thrown with a single motion. The first throw was free. I got 40 points on the first throw. I plunked down a dollar and got 18 more points. With each dollar, the points awarded diminished. I spent more than $20 before I realized I never would get those last few points. I had been had!
The Carney used my greed against me. It ended up costing me a couple of days of wages, but the bite that stung the most was realizing that I allowed myself to be suckered. It turned out to be one of the cheapest lessons I ever learned.
[/quote]
Grover (further to our private messages),
do you really think you and Dave have a mastery in the divying out of the resource wealth of the world through some master plan of the saving grace to the pegged American dollar? Transplanting a billion+ people from land based food security, into insecurity and povery in such examples as the hovel's of Bhopal (Madhya Pradesh), the favelas of Brazilia, and East Timorese slums? Further, to the exemplory application of 1994's NAFTA, as a continuence to the forced migration, indirect (and direct) killing/maiming of 50 million people in just the last 60 years alone?
Lets talk foreign aid - in the two broad categories of military and economic assistance (and by private organizations and individuals in the United States) - discounting the more obvious ones, such as Afghanistan, Israel, Iraq, Pakistan, Egypt, Kenya and Jordan - concentrate instead on Indonesia, Liberia, Somalia, Zambia, Mozambique, South Sudan, Congo (Kinshasa), Uganda, Nigeria, Sudan, Tanzania, Ethiopia, the Philippines, Columbia, and finally, and not least, Bolivia, Chile and Haiti, (among many more unmentioned in this list that still apply).
Look into each one of those countries above, and you will find that they each had a massive rise in violence - with the instigation of a puppet regime - as each, over time, were given U.S. aid, while the meritorious profits of resource were/are shared among allies - and not just uncasually benefitting the extremely false, short-term, trickle-down economic effect, back home.
Each one of these countries were seduced, then induced, with the multi-talisman effects of an inflation/deflation that countermanded any value within each local currency, forcing each to fall back on the pegged American dollar to strengthen export trade at "rape" values, equal to several cents on their original dollar revenue income.
Hiding behind the juxtaposition of magnanimous aid, this is the backbone, meat and sinue, of the American Empire. These are the "Extrernalities" that I mentioned in an earlier post.
I find it such a personal disapointment that if the American people knew the truth of how they are lied to - and the myths that they endorse - they would choose against it. But that would mean their chosen lifestyle would stop.
I've learned something about our fellow citizens you won't like to hear:
They hear it, they learn from it, they understand it, and they proceed to ignore it.America is not a person to blindly defend, but a country that we live in. It's people are complicit - yet ignorant of the fact - while evil policies are enacted - and continue to be enacted - in our name.
S Anthony,I never read the entire book (just free excerpts) Confessions of an Economic Hitman He was describing the mechanism to accomplish what you've been saying. In essence, the hitmen would make loans to government leaders that were so big that the loans could never get paid back. Once the country (being targeted) "defaulted", the road to serfdom began. Forgiveness of portions of the loan was contingent on promises being delivered. The strings became firmly attached and a puppet government was born.
Other than starving the beast, what options do you see to correct the situation. Remember that it takes two to tango. Also, remember that you can't con an honest person.
Grover
… that you would enjoy the card game “illuminati”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuminati_(game)
My brother added – to all the standard groups – a card representing the Vatican, with the goal that it needed to arrange cards representing one of each category of group (criminal, government, chaotic, free, etc) into the shape of a cross.
Point being, not all of the goals of the chess players are going to make sense to you, but they may make sense to them.
This is the second time in a week this card game has entered my consciousness. I'll look it up. Thanks for digging up this old but good conversation.