Sympathy For The Devil?

In one of the Chevy Chase movies Chevy is driving cross country when his car breaks down. He is forced to stop at a seedy car repair joint. He asks how much the repair will cost and the response is “How much do ya’ got?”
As best I can tell, this is the medical pricing mechanism also. More respectably stated “How much will the market bear.”
Surgery Costs Vary Wildly – Even in the Same Area.

The cost of having a knee or hip replaced varies wildly and can be up to four times more in one place than another -— even in the same area... A total knee replacement averaged about $31,000, ... [b]ut in [a single city,] Dallas, it ranged from $16,772 to $61,584.86. Across the USA, knee replacements costs as little as $11,317 in Montgomery, Ala., and as much as $69,654 in New York City, Some of the price differences are expected -— rent and other overhead costs are much higher in New York City than in Alabama. But the reasons why hip replacement in Fort Collins, Colo., costs tens of thousands more than in Pittsburgh may have more to do with whatever the market will bear.
Variable pricing in pharmaceuticals through the international markets is similarly explained as "what the market will bear." The article posted on today daily commentary by edwardelinsky is another great example.

Who benefits from this system? The insurance industry. But wait. Who exactly is that? Who are the human beings hidden behind the mask of the term “insurance industry?”
The oligarchy owns the insurance industry. I don’t know the specific details of exactly who that is, but a group of the wealthiest own the insurance industry and this small group controls its actions. It is, most definitely, one of the structures that the oligarchy uses to harvest resources from the population.
As a single example, I read that the late David Rockefeller was a principle (meaning >5% ownership) in 105 of the largest 125 corporations on earth. So we have a single human being intensely invested in, and with high level of controlling influence over, the current system, one component of which is the immensely profitable parasitic operation called “health insurance.” Together, this fairly small group of people form the parasitic alliance.
This is the same oligarchy that owns the media and funds the re-election campaigns of our “representatives.” I personally believe that there is a fairly high degree of coordination among this elite class to shape society for its own benefit. The elite make the laws, rules and and propagate the myths that move the sheeple.
A social activist from the civil rights era remarked that power is never relinquished voluntarily. It must be demanded.
Are we to the place where we are ready to demand a transparent and equitable system that cannot be gamed? Or must the pain be increased further?
A government owned program with employed, salaried, doctors and nurses would be one such system. Despite my visceral aversion to “government control,” this seems smartest, and least likely to be gamed, to me. And as DaveF has pointed out, it is a globally tested system.

. . .there are options. When all you have is lemons, try making lemonade. However, in this case, I see they have tempered the approach!
http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/danish-brewery-pisner-urine-beer-beercycling-1.4101819

An awesome example of an archetypal conversation between the Mean ORANGE Meme (MOM) and GREEN. From the NYT opinion page.
And Jesus Said Unto Paul of Ryan …
A woman who had been bleeding for 12 years came up behind Jesus and touched his clothes in hope of a cure. Jesus turned to her and said: “Fear not. Because of your faith, you are now healed.”
Then spoke Pious Paul of Ryan: “But teacher, is that wise? When you cure her, she learns dependency. Then the poor won’t take care of themselves, knowing that you’ll always bail them out! You must teach them personal responsibility!”
They were interrupted by 10 lepers who stood at a distance and shouted, “Jesus, have pity on us.”
“NO!” shouted Pious Paul. “Jesus! You don’t have time. We have a cocktail party fund-raiser in the temple. And don’t worry about them — they’ve already got health care access.”
Jesus turned to Pious Paul, puzzled.
“Why, they can pray for a cure,” Pious Paul explained. “I call that universal health care access.”

Jesus turned to the 10 lepers. “Rise and go,” he told them. “Your faith has made you well.” Then he turned back to Pious Paul, saying, “Let me tell you the story of the good Samaritan. “A man was attacked by robbers who stripped him of clothes, beat him and left him half dead. A minister passed down this same road, and when he saw the injured man, he crossed to the other side and hurried on. So did a rich man who claimed to serve God. But then a despised Samaritan came by and took pity on the injured man. He bandaged his wounds and put the man on his own donkey and paid an innkeeper to nurse him to health. So which of these three should we follow?” “Those who had mercy on him,” Pious Paul said promptly. Jesus nodded. “So go ——” “I mean the first two,” Pious Paul interjected. “For the Samaritan’s work is unsustainable and sends the wrong message. It teaches travelers to take dangerous roads, knowing that others will rescue them from self-destructive behaviors. This Samaritan also seems to think it right to redistribute money from those who are successful and give it to losers. That’s socialism! Meanwhile, if the rich man keeps his money, he can invest it and create jobs. So it’s an act of mercy for the rich man to hurry on and ignore the robbery victim.” “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of Heaven,” Jesus mused to himself. “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter heaven.” “Let me teach you about love, Jesus — tough love!” Pious Paul explained. “You need a sustainable pro-business model. And you need to give people freedom, Jesus, the freedom to suffer misery and poverty.” “The Lord God has anointed me to bring good news to the poor,” Jesus replied, emphasizing the last two words. Then he turned to a paralyzed beggar at his feet. “Stand up!” Jesus told the man. “Pick up your mat and go home.” As the man danced about joyfully, Pious Paul rolled his eyes dismissively.
“Look, Jesus, you have rare talent, and it should be rewarded,” Pious Paul said. “I have a partner, The Donald, who would like to work with you: He’d set up a lovely hospital, and the rich would come and pay for you to heal them. You’d get a percentage, and it’d be a real money-spinner. Overhead would be minimal because every morning you could multiply some loaves and fishes. You could strike it rich!”
Blessed are the poor, for theirs is the kingdom of God,” Jesus said. “But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received comfort.” “Oh, come on, Jesus,” Pious Paul protested. “Don’t go socialist on me again. Please don’t encourage class warfare. The best way to help the needy is to give public money to the rich. That then inspires the poor to work harder, galvanizes the sick to become healthy, forces the lepers to solve their own problems rather than kick back and depend on others. That’s why any realistic health plan has to focus on providing less coverage for the poor, and big tax benefits for the rich. When millions of people lose health care, that’s when a country is great again!” “From everyone who has been given much,” Jesus told him, “much will be required.” “Well, sure, this hospital would have a foundation to do some charity work. Maybe commissioning portraits of The Donald to hang in the entrance. But let’s drop this bleeding heart nonsense about health care as a human right, and see it as a financial opportunity to reward investors. In this partnership, 62 percent of the benefits would go to the top 0.6 percent — perfect for a health care plan.” Jesus turned to Pious Paul on his left and said: “Be gone! For I was hungry and you gave me no food; I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink; and I was sick, and you did not help me.” “But, Lord,” protested Pious Paul of Ryan, “when did I see you hungry or thirsty or sick and refuse to help you? I drop your name everywhere. And I’m pro-life!” “Truly, I say to you,” Jesus responded, “as you did not help the homeless, the sick — as you did not help the least of these, you did not help me.” -------------------- ORANGE is the developmental where personal achievement/advantage is the main motivation and the filter of winners vs losers us used. Normally people in ORANGE are well into developing the next Meme, GREEN, and are showing the signs of growing compassion. When the budding empathy/compassion just isn't happening a particularly bad cul-de-sac happens called the Mean ORANGE Meme. Heartless greed. GREEN is moved by compassion. But rejects economic concerns. If a YELLOW had been present, he/she might have suggested both 1) Jesus continue with the immediate healing of the sick, and 2) the formation of an organization with a self sustaining business model to train workers so that the healing work could continue into the future. :-)

Jesus was a revolutionary. That’s why TPTB had him whacked. But it turns out, even that ended up causing more than a little blowback.
People don’t want insurance. They want healthcare.
The insurance model only works for stuff that hasn’t happened yet. Healthcare, on the other hand, works just fine even if you have pre-existing conditions. Arguably, healthcare’s largest market is people with pre-existing conditions.
So perhaps we should optimize a system for people with problems, rather than for the people who don’t have any problems yet.
If we had a healthcare system, rather than an insurance system, it would be about half as expensive as the monster we have now.
One last point. Healthcare takes care of health problems. Insurance - it always seems to have a gotcha that only becomes visible when you actually need to make use of it. Either you aren’t covered, the deductible is larger than you’d expect, the policy was for “fair market value” rather than “replacement cost” - insurance buyers usually end up hosed, because they aren’t the smartest people in the room when they buy it.
So yeah. Healthcare, not insurance.

None. Whatsoever.

Dave, the Pope will personally come round and thump you if you mix Jesus and Revolutionary. That’s what used to be known as Liberation Theology and it upsets the Vatican big time. On this issue I actually agree with them. J did say give unto Cesear the things that are Ceaser’s. J didn’t believe reorganizing society to be fairer worked. Things would always revert to the 1% v 99%. Instead you had to have a deeper relationship with God and your neighbour and the social arrangements then kinda clicked into place anyhow.
But don’t tell the Vatican I’m a Catholic Taoist either. That’ll cause tantrums as well.

davefairtex wrote:
Jesus was a revolutionary. That's why TPTB had him whacked. But it turns out, even that ended up causing more than a little blowback. People don't want insurance. They want healthcare. The insurance model only works for stuff that hasn't happened yet. Healthcare, on the other hand, works just fine even if you have pre-existing conditions. Arguably, healthcare's largest market is people with pre-existing conditions. So perhaps we should optimize a system for people with problems, rather than for the people who don't have any problems yet. If we had a healthcare system, rather than an insurance system, it would be about half as expensive as the monster we have now. One last point. Healthcare takes care of health problems. Insurance - it always seems to have a gotcha that only becomes visible when you actually need to make use of it. Either you aren't covered, the deductible is larger than you'd expect, the policy was for "fair market value" rather than "replacement cost" - insurance buyers usually end up hosed, because they aren't the smartest people in the room when they buy it. So yeah. Healthcare, not insurance.
I disagree with your comment that most people want "healthcare." Most people want someone else to have easy, zero-effort solutions for their lack of self control and poor lifestyle choices. It all depends on what we refer to as healthcare. I don't have any health problems currently. My healthcare however, involves going to the gym 5 times a week. Also I try to eat 4 or 5 small meals or snacks each day. Thats eathing about 35/week. I make sure 90 % of that is healthy - salads, nuts, vegetables, healthy fats, maybe some lean protein once a day. That means out of 35 meals/snacks 3-4 of them can be an indulgence - AKA something with sugar, flour or starch. I would estimate greater than 80 percent of health problems are related to poor lifestyle decisions -- Mostly bad diet, no exercise, smoking, drinking alcohol, and constant negative thoughts. The rest are mostly environmental or genetic. The system cannot be fixed until "healthcare" is redefined. Health Insurance rates should be cheaper if you are healthier or can show that you make healthy life style choices. Don't smoke - cheaper policy. Don't drink - cheaper policy. Lose 2lbs per month on average over 6 months - we will reduce your rates. These are the types of incentives that will lower the cost burden of the entire system. If someone gains 2lbs per month over a year their rates could go up. This would most likely motivate people to become healthier.
Dave, the Pope will personally come round and thump you if you mix Jesus and Revolutionary. That's what used to be known as Liberation Theology and it upsets the Vatican big time. On this issue I actually agree with them. J did say give unto Cesear the things that are Ceaser's.
Well, I certainly want to avoid a Pope-thumping at all costs, so I'll retract my statement immediately! Well, maybe I don't in one sense. Jesus was revolutionary in a similar way that I'm revolutionary when I say "getting out of debt is a revolutionary act." If we all did it, it would force a reform of our current monetary system without a single violent act taking place. Its the ultimate sort of nonviolent protest - because it is not even a protest! Same thing is true if you practice as Jesus preached. There's a lot of stuff that just goes away; need for healthcare, baking and fishing industries, currency exchange shops and so on. Ok, I'm kidding again, but underneath it all, not really. My version of 'render unto caesar': "by all means make your interest payment to the bankers, but at the same time, work every day to become debt-free."

MillenialFalcon-

I disagree with your comment that most people want "healthcare." Most people want someone else to have easy, zero-effort solutions for their lack of self control and poor lifestyle choices.
Sure. However: Most of society has been carefully programmed via science & technology to be in exactly the state you describe. I used to think people were idiots and deserved the fates they got, until I realized just how much human behavior was driven by our biology, and how good a job our system does in manipulating most of us in order to bring about this very (profitable for them) outcome. I'm not saying its a grand conspiracy, really - just that without individual awareness of what our biology drives us to do, unconscious people just trying to survive in their daily lives end up being very easily programmed by the relentless barrage of media (apps, TV, entertainment) telling them what they should do in order to be happy. Which of course is all wrong, as you know (given your description of your lifestyle), but its really hard to rise above the biology and the all-encompassing media deluge to live a reasonably healthy lifestyle. Its practically a revolutionary act to do so. The fact that it is so very profitable to keep people unhealthy - for a large number of industries - probably explains why the mainstream programming remains so intense. But all that said - even if we don't change a thing about what people do, even if we don't turn everyone else's lifestyle into your lifestyle, a national healthcare system remains a much cheaper option than our current "insurance racket + healthcare racket". price(insurance racket) + price(healthcare racket) >> price(national healthcare system) This even assumes all the government waste we'll get with the national healthcare system. I've seen it executed elsewhere. Of course there are problems, but the costs are vastly lower to the overall economy than the system we have today in the US. Regarding your incentive system: every system like that will be gamed by the participants, leading to unexpected outcomes that are probably counterproductive. You seriously want to give everyone weigh-ins prior to calculating their premiums? Cutting weight is really unhealthy behavior, but that's what would end up happening. Just as a for-instance. Likewise, quitting smoking for a week prior to "the test" doesn't do anyone any good. The only possible way out is individual awareness. Also, if the system itself were to benefit from reduced healthcare costs, we might just spend more research dollars on cheaper remedies that actually improved health outcomes. Right now, the healthcare system overall receives a greater benefit from increased ill-health! Even insurance companies - they get their percentage on the total healthcare spend. The larger the spend, the larger their cut.

Are paying rich people to tell the middle class to blame the poor,fat,muslim,african american,jewish people. etc…You name it,they game it.

Dave I only mentioned thumping because Pope John Paul XX111 publicly gave the Socalist President of Nicuagra Daniel Ortega a public ticking off before the cameras on a visit years ago.

EE-
You must start with the premise that everyone will attempt to game every system. Rich people, and poor people. We all do it, because that’s just how we’re built. Biologically, we are built to cheat because there’s an evolutionary advantage to doing it. We get an internal brain-chemistry reward when we get away with something - some of us get a stronger chemical reward than others. This is a proven, scientific thing.
We’re also built to cooperate. And to engage in altruistic behavior - as long as its reciprocal.
This isn’t unique to mankind - monkeys, even bacteria and fungi cooperate, and cheat, and act altruistically.
This is because there is an evolutionary benefit to all these behaviors. And because of this, we’re also built to detect others cheating - because when someone else cheats on you, that puts you at a disadvantage.
That’s all detailed in this lecture by Robert Sapolsky.

Bottom line: every welfare system will be gamed. Every healthcare system will have fraud. And all of us will be enraged by the cheaters because we're built to hate cheating. And to also cheat it if we can possibly get away with it without being detected. Gotta love that paradox. We can overlay these biological drivers with our own morality - awareness, etc - but the body we're born into has this wiring already in place.

I had forgotten this.This countries uprisings are also a very good thing…