The Emperor Has No Clothes

I agree with many things said by prior commentaries, but not walking away from voting.  I agree our present system is way to far from perfect.  So field and vote for those who offer a better choice.  Ron Paul is a start, but it needs to be based on principals rather than a personality.
Look to Russia today and historically for the kind of government you get when the people avoid political contact.

We tend to agree that what we have is going to collapse.  If so then we should be putting forward a substantial effort to define what system it will be replaced with.  Perhaps taking our Constitution and line by line identify what is working and what is not.

Good luck enforcing a “world speed limit.”  Sounds a bit improbable that the whole world would ever agree to this, but even if you could get just one country to do so, I would hate to be in a position to need an ambulance.

Then again, after the age of oil, 25 mph might be rather reasonable.

straight:
So in your opinion, should commercial airplane travel be abolished, you know, for the sake of equality?

I too think we must march with happiness down the road of sustainable living.  I do not believe that this means a world free of art, architecture, and solid culture.  It also does not have to be a world free of travel.  Yes, it will likely be a world less engaged in long distance travel.
If during a 75 year life time one can expect the opportunity to go from one ocean to the other than that means transporting 4,000,000 people per year across the continent (300,000,000 people divided by 75) which is about 11,000 per day each way.  In addition to this there will be people on the move to new jobs, and to buy and sell goods and services.

In 1951 when I was 8 years old our family took a trip from Illinois to the Pacific Northwest for business reasons.  I was the only person in my grade school who had made such a journey including the teachers.  That is how much our travel expectations have expanded.

There is more energy requirements to run a rail road than the trains propulsion.  There is vast energy invested in creating the road bed, ties, rails, bridges, stations and rolling stock.  The slower the train moves the less flows up and down the system.  As a result spending more energy to move the train faster may in fact be conserving energy when compared to the alternative of laying another track to satisfy the volume.  Then there is the consideration that the passengers and cargo have a time value.

It is difficult to look across oceans and countries to fully appreciate the true content of a photograph.  The United States which consumes 25% of the worlds energy pampering the wants of 5% of the worlds population might be under the misunderstanding that the beautiful rail station shown in Dr Martenson’s blog is heated and air conditioned.  Only bankrupt energy hogs have such luxuries.  Therefore, a very high ceiling is quite practical to allow the heat from the train and passengers to rise and escape in summer. 

 Travel by American trains was no big pleasure.  The train staffs poor service was only exceeded by their surliness.  When I was 13 I got on a 2 passenger car train going 45 miles to St Louis where I would connect for another journey.  The train had many passengers standing in the aisle.  It took over an hour to make this leg of the journey.  The Conductor had two seats turned around providing four seats for his comfort.  He had his ticket bag in one seat, his ass in another and his feet resting in another seat.  There was a 4th seat by the window he was not using.  He got up to punch tickets and I slipped into the 4th seat.  When he came back he began screaming and yelling, and threatening me that he was going to stop the train and throw me off.  This story is true and very typical of why Americans abandoned rail passenger service as fast as the road systems and availability to drive cars presented its self.

I bought a EuroRail pass a couple years ago and found Europe’s trains to be clean, fast, and on time.  In my youth American trains ran one to two hours late.

And I would never dream of preventing/discouraging you from voting for Ron Paul.  For the record, I like him.  Always did.  If you want to do that, go right ahead.  I applaud you for it.  However, that will not stop me from nuturing my agorist network.  That’s my Plan B.

  • If Ron Paul wants to eliminate public education...awesome.  However, everyone who is tied into the State/Education complex will vote against him to keep the gravy train flowing.
  • If Ron Paul wants to eliminate the Federal Reserve...awesome.  However, everyone who is tied into the State/Banking cartel will vote against him to keep the gravy train flowing.
  • If Ron Paul wants to bring the troops home and limit military spending...awesome.  However, everyone who is tied into the Stte/Military industrial complex will vote against him to keep the gravy train flowing.
  • If Ron Paul wants to eliminate subsidies to X or Y...awesome.  However, everyone who is tied into benefitting from the State/subsidy complex will vote against him to keep the gravy train flowing.
  • If Ron Paul wants to eliminate taxes on X or Y...awesome.  However, everyone who will pay more because X or Y is no longer being taxed will vote against you
This is the fallacy of democracy.  Democracy assumes mob rules (or minor variants) or might makes right.  Democracy assumes that it is morally legitimate for us to delegate the non-right of stealing from each other to the State.  Democracy is not to be revered but rather reviled.  Spat on.  Defecated on.  Even the founding fathers of the US were aware of the perils of democracy; they voted to create a Republic thinking that a predatory tiger like the State can be restrained by a paper cage called a Constitution.  They were wrong....how's that all worked out?

It might be useful for Dr Chris to project a meaningful study of just how much the Federal Government must reduce spending or increase taxes to actually balance it books.  This study should include the reality that either reductions in spending or increased taxes without increased spending will have a very negative impact on the economy resulting in lower tax receipts which then mandate still more cuts or tax increases.
The study might also include an interest rate increase of adequate proportions to create a positive savings rate which would allow us to fund our economy without foreign borrowing.  Of course an interest rate increase will exacerbate the mountain of bad debts and foreclosures that are all ready in the pipeline.  Due to the mountain of Federal debt an interest rate increase will be still mandate still more taxes or cuts in other spending.

I suspect that the final fully funded government would be less than half its present size, and our economy will have shrunk to a similar extent.  No matter how bad the news is it is better for each and all to lay their plans based on a sober analysis of the reality we face.

I think we all know that “We The People” won’t stand still for the bitter pill of honoring our public debts.  If that is the case then how does default play out for “We The People”?

Re. Ivan Illich’s ideas.

  1. Please read the essy/book i linked.  Illich is a clear thinker with a good writing sytle and a passion for an equitable world.

  2. In his book he asserts, with reasoning, that existing infrastructure will have a greater capacity at lower speed. This is for rail and roads.  He may be mistaken, i doubt it, but i am no expert myself.

  3. My partners sister wrote this book. http://www.amazon.com/Car-Sick-Solutions-Car-addicted-Culture/dp/190399876X  Lynn, the author, put me onto Illich and I simply love his vision and passion for world equality and his sharp mind and suscinct writing style.  Lynns job is to do research and implement changes to get people out of cars and onto bikes, their feet or public transport. Lynn is hired by all manner of councils and governments throughout Europe; she lives in an isolated converted barn in the country side in Wales, not far from CAT [centre for alternative Technology] if you are from Wales. This book, ‘Car Sick’, is a very practical research based assessment of how to kick the car habbit.  Make no mistake, if you drive every day it is an addiction. 

  4. If you add up the time the average american spends on their car, it will blow your mind. Take into account the time you spend actually in the car, working on it, cleaning it, gassing [american for ‘filling up’] it, and especially the time you work to earn the money [before tax] to pay for the car itself, fuel [gas], insurance, registration, cleaning etc etc.   No imagine a world with cars that travel only 25kph… Lynns research shows that when you drop the speed of cars people think it is safe enough to get out onto the road on foot or on a bike.  Build it and they will come applies with a vengence to roads, bridges and car tunnels.  Deconstruct/slow it down and they will leave!

  5. Flying might seem like a god given right, but it aint! Clean water, food, shelter, freedom of speech [except for corporations / immortals], they are rights.  Why should you have high speed trains when others die for the want of clean water / food / basic medications?  Why? answer me that.  The inequity can stop, and this is one way to do it civily without bloodshed.

  6. If something is unsustainable it will stop! If it is unsustainable it wont be sustained. It seems to me that high speed travel is unsustainable, it is simply a matter of HOW it stops.  This way means you get to keep your car and your boat and your motor-bike and your snow mobile and your SUV, you simply have to drive it slowly. If you own a plane, you can always  trade down to one of these…http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gossamer_Albatross

Food for thought.

Chris Hedges [Pulitzer Prize winner] article, “Zero Point of Systemic Collapse”
https://www.adbusters.org/magazine/88/chris-hedges.html

its a little bit Orlove and a little bit Celente, and all brilliance.  IMHO this guy gets it. Brilliant!

"The philosopher Theodor Adorno wrote that the exclusive preoccupation with personal concerns and indifference to the suffering of others beyond the self-identified group is what ultimately made fascism and the Holocaust possible: “The inability to identify with others was unquestionably the most important psychological condition for the fact that something like Auschwitz could have occurred in the midst of more or less civilized and innocent people.

The indifference to the plight of others and the supreme elevation of the self is what the corporate state seeks to instill in us. It uses fear, as well as hedonism, to thwart human compassion. We will have to continue to battle the mechanisms of the dominant culture, if for no other reason than to preserve through small, even tiny acts, our common humanity. We will have to resist the temptation to fold in on ourselves and to ignore the cruelty outside our door. Hope endures in these often imperceptible acts of defiance. This defiance, this capacity to say no, is what the psychopathic forces in control of our power systems seek to eradicate. As long as we are willing to defy these forces we have a chance, if not for ourselves, then at least for those who follow. As long as we defy these forces we remain alive. And for now this is the only victory possible."

You forget the pitchforks!!! :slight_smile:

Samuel

I am with Celente on this one.  Americans, and Australians for that matter,  seem to be presented with a choice to vote for the left or the right head of the same monster.
We need a new body to vote for.  The very real problem I can see is that the Immortals, the Corporations, now hold sway over the voting process. Not only have they corrupted the system with their profit virus and changed the mindset of the average Joe to be one of insular self interest  and self actualisation by buying stuff, they have now bought and paid for the whole damn shooting match with the decision to uncap political donations by Corporations.

The rules are made by those that turn up, we just need a new ‘people friendly’ choice to vote for.  If not you or I then who?

Stewart

Brisbane.

Samuel
The pen might be mightier than the sword but pitchforks are no match for an F-16

V

Found this comment on the FT comments on Niall fergusons article
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f90bca10-1679-11df-bf44-00144feab49a.html

Dr. Hu | February 11 5:57am | Permalink

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The crisis of extreme over-capacity, over-production and stagnation at the root of current "troubles" has a clear origin--the entry of China into the global economy in the two preceeding decades. With a labor force now nearly equal the total 455million in the entire developed world, but willing to work for far less money in far worse conditions--for American, Japanese, Taiwanese, and other multinational producers--China is rendering many of the developed world's labor force redundant. That plus a dearth of environmental regulations, an under-valued RMB, and mercantilist trade policies gives items produced there a competitive advantage in everything from socks and toys to solar panels and computers. They've added mightily to global supply, and almost nothing to global demand, except for much of Australia's mass, Southeast Asia's forests, and oil and gas from wherever their piles of foreign exchange can secure it. With the US consumer bubble long since popped, the contraction of demand has been precipitous. And so a war is on to determine just which nations' factories and workers are redundant, delayed only by the stimuli, bailouts, and subsidies you so rightly criticize. The weakest, like Greece, will fall soon, but many others will follow. Austerity is usually an economic death sentence, almost never a precursor of vigorous growth. When imposed on the masses, still reeling from the shattered promises of globalization, austerity portends social chaos and will lead to a hasty breakdown of the neo-liberal order, likely into "closed" regional economies, which we must hope will be democratic. On the bright side, it's never made much sense, except by the narrowest, most socially and ecoologically perverse criteria, to off-shore so much of the world's manufacturing to a venue where energy and natural resources are devoured far less efficiently than in Japan, Europe or the US, then shipped thousands of miles to people who already possess far more than the Chinese workers. Perhaps we in the affluent world can learn to live better while consuming less. Blunt the hard edges of savage austerity into mindful frugality with a large dose of human ingenuity. If not, more sinister forces lurk in the beer halls.

 

You rock. Thanks for the clarity.

Sorry about skipping out on finishing my post yesterday, but I thought I would continue a bit more on the subject of money

Lastly, the free market cannot and will not ever deliver everything we want primarily because it is 100% based on a failing debt-based monetary unit.  Under different money I might hold a different view (depending on which one was the dominant form) but for now I simply have no faith that a debt-based free market will deliver the right things for a sustainable future.  The profit motive is good for some things, but not everything (charity is one example). For some things we have to make our decisions based on other considerations besides an ever-increasing flow of money units.
In the context of a debt-based fiat monetary system Chris references above, he is entirely correct.  Economics in general doesn't say anything about "mandatory growth" as a requirement, but when you have the economy lubricated by debt-based fiat money, comprising 1/2 of all transactions - as money is bought by selling goods/services and money is sold in return for goods/services, save direct barter and charity, and this money requires infinite growth.

The rate/volume of new money being loaned into existence must be greater than the rate/volume of loans being retired.  Why?  If new money is created out of thin air, old money paid back is being sent into “a black hole”.  Private banks act as both the birthplace and slaughterhouse of the lions share of our money.

If the interest on old loans is being paid back with the principle of new loans, this is pure Ponzi.  If the rate/volume of new loans created is less than the rate/volume of dollars of old loans being retired, the money supply shrinks.  This forces people to compete for fewer and fewer dollars in circulation.  This has STAGGERING socio-economic impacts.  It pits us against each other fighting for the remaining dollars in circulation.  If this continues - i.e. people do NOT take out new loans and hunker down to pay off old ones - our monetary unit collapses in hyper-deflation.  This is the ugly structural defect in our system.  

I really don’t mean to sound pedantic, but I can’t think of a subject more muddled, obfuscated, and riddled with fallacies other than the subject of economics and money amongst the public in general.

When man began to improve methods of production via trial and error, sharing knowledge, and building efficiencies by harnessing their energy with the resources available, the concept of economic surplus came about.  Man plowed the land with his bare hands and sticks and maybe could come up with a meager sustenance.  They lived day to day or paycheck to paycheck.  The next move was to learn how to harness animal labour to assist in the production of goods and services.  This continued with the Industrial Revolution and so forth.  I don’t want to posit a 6000 year historical walkthrough as it is WAY beyond the scope of this post and doesn’t really serve any point.

The point is, man could inject 1 unit of energy, but produce maybe 1.2 units of energy back, as an example.  Surplus.  What did he do with this surplus?  He figured out that he could increase his standard of living by taking the surplus he produced and trading it for other’s surplus he didn’t produce.  Thus the first primitive markets were born.  Barter based markets.  The first hints of the benefits of the division of labour and specialization came about.   For example, a blacksmith could trade his goods and services for things he didn’t produce; wheat, corn, whiskey, clothes etc etc.

Some of us know the inefficiencies of barter.  It is described as a “double coincidence of wants” where A had to have what B wanted at the same point in time at the same geographical location.   In order for a trade to take place, A had to value what A possessed LESS than what B had.  Conversely, B had to value what B possessed LESS than what A had.  Next they had to agree the quality and volume of what the other had was sufficient.  All of these things had to be met in order for honest trade to take place.  Clearly this was a clumsy system.

The second issue with barter based systems was the difficulty in establishing “price” or the measurement of time, labour, and the resources required to bring a product or service into being in relation to the other.  For example,

  • 50 eggs is worth 1 chicken.
  • 1 cow is worth 100 chickens, or 1/100 of a cow = 1 chicken <-- How is the latter settled?  Which part of the cow?  Can market actors agree? Not likely.
  • Therefore, 1 cow is also worth 100 x 50 eggs = 500 eggs.
The question becomes, in this primitive market, what's the egg price of butter, the butter price of bread, the bread price of a plow, the plow price of a horseshoe, the horseshoe price of whisky, and so forth.  Very cumbersome, very difficult.

As MARKET initiated demand for the simplification of trade came around, there were commodities that began isolating themselves as they had unique properties that made them better.  For example, butter was widely needed, but was easily divisible and relatively portable and durable (not really, but back then it could be stored for longer periods of time than say, fish or meat).  It could have been salt.  Tobacco.  Manure.  Whisky. You get the picture.

Once this form of universally demanded commodity gained widespread recognition amongst market actors, it had a spiraling upward effect of acceptance in the market as a desirable commodity as it had the universally accepted property of being exchangeable for all other commodities!  The first crude form of money was devised.   Trade was lubricated via this mechanism as it was an indirect mechanism of exchange where goods and services could be acquired (bought) by selling butter to A and A could take that butter and sell it to B in return for his goods and services either now…or at some point in the future.  This was a new concept!  What’s that?  A medium of exchange, thus a store of value and a unit of account?  Any economics 101 textbook defines that as money.

Whew!  Hope you are still with me.

As markets expanded via transportation improvements (i.e. roads, wagons, clipper ships etc) and the number of goods and services available increased, some forms of money were displaced and others evolved.  If market A had salt in abundance but in Market B, salt was so scarce it was used as money, the first traders from market A to market be (first to market) would race back home, gather all the salt they could, and (carefully?) buy up as much commodity they knew market A valued.  Market B?  Inflation or hyper-inflation.  Wasn’t pretty.

So this type of monetary evolution continued, finally culminating in precious metals as they met a number of desirable characteristics in ALL markets:

  • Portable - Can transport high value in a relatively small volume of space.
  • Durable - Drop a gold bar in the ocean, and save erosion, it didn't react with anything and it should be there in a 1,000 years.
  • Fungible a.k.a interchangibility - One unit of weight and purity has equal value as another unit of weight and purity.
  • Divisible - When divided in half, has the same value as the whole.  This is why diamonds suck as money.  2 x 1/2 carat diamonds != a 1 carat diamond, even assuming equal colour, clarity, and cut.
  • Universally acknowledged in all markets participating in trade with each other.
  • Scarce - If it weren't , it wouldn't have value would it?
  • And no one could create it out of thin air, NOR had a monopoly on the production of it.  Contrast that with today....
Contrast this type of money with the type of money we have in place today.  Back then, money was backed by a tangible asset that took real work to produce.  Asset-based money.  Today?  As you are aware, created via debt by the State/Banking cartel.

So how did the usurpation of free market money come about and be replaced by the State/Banking cartel’s pogrom?  That’s another post.  I’ll spare you unless there is enough interest.  Think on this:  Why is it the unit of accounts we use today (dollar, peso, mark, pounds etc) all trace their roots back to some weight of precious metals?  What happened?  Why were they replaced by the State/Banking cartels paper or electronic bits?  I’ll provide the shortcut: State violence. Not all at once, but a creeping succession of financial and banking policy wonks looking out for the public good?  Not so much.

The profit motive is good for some things, but not everything (charity is one example).
Profit is a term usually thought of in the Gordon Gecko vein.  Profit is conflated with exploitation or greed.  This can be true, but what is profit?  I don't give to charity in return for money.  I "profit" a.k.a. receive value a.k.a seek out a "plus" factor when I help my fellow man.  The spiritual reward and satisfaction of helping others is my profit.  I get more out of the transaction of giving then I put into it, otherwise the trade - yes, it is a trade - would not take place.  I pay for membership to Chris Martenson because I get more out of it than the money I possess is worth to me, otherwise no trade could take place.

In the absence of the State, would all charity die?  Would you be more or less inclined to donate time and money, connect with your community, if you were allowed to retain your money instead of being siphoned off by State violence, or would you flip your tax returns back to the government thinking your contribution to your community is complete?  Such is the soul-killing logic of the State, “I don’t need to help others!  That’s why I pay my taxes!”

A true free market does not preclude charity.  Up here in Canada, there are 38,000 registered charities in SPITE of the welfare state.  I read ENDLESS charitable events being flogged by my local paper.  There was a huge one recently called the “Polar Bear Dip” where people plunged into the frigid waters of Lake Ontario.  They raised nearly $200,000 dollars.  Charity is voluntary trade too.

What is a free market?  We need a good definition.  To me, a free market is about the voluntary relationships between members in that market, whether local, national, or global in the absence of coercive/violent forces.

A free market is about Community.  Relationships.  Respect. Self-reliance and inter-dependence.  Caring.  Sustainability.  It’s too bad that term has been hijacked to mean exploitation, inequality, and so forth.

Like you said Chris, and this line resonates powerfully with me, “The narrative needs to change”.

I’ll close with a cogent analysis of voting (as precipitated in post #3) written by Robert Lefevre:

In ancient Athens, those who admired the Stoic philosophy of individualism took as their motto: "Abstain from Beans." The phrase had a precise reference. It meant: don't vote. Balloting in Athens occurred by dropping various colored beans into a receptacle.

To vote is to express a preference. There is nothing implicitly evil in choosing. All of us in the ordinary course of our daily lives vote for or against dozens of products and services. When we vote for (buy) any good or service, it follows that by salutary neglect we vote against the goods or services we do not choose to buy. The great merit of market place choosing is that no one is bound by any other person’s selection. I may choose Brand X. But this cannot prevent you from choosing Brand Y.

When we place voting into the framework of politics, however, a major change occurs. When we express a preference politically, we do so precisely because we intend to bind others to our will. Political voting is the legal method we have adopted and extolled for obtaining monopolies of power. Political voting is nothing more than the assumption that might makes right. There is a presumption that any decision wanted by the majority of those expressing a preference must be desirable, and the inference even goes so far as to presume that anyone who differs from a majority view is wrong or possibly immoral.

But history shows repeatedly the madness of crowds and the irrationality of majorities. The only conceivable merit relating to majority rule lies in the fact that if we obtain monopoly decisions by this process, we will coerce fewer persons than if we permit the minority to coerce the majority. But implicit in all political voting is the necessity to coerce some so that all are controlled. The direction taken by the control is academic. Control as a monopoly in the hands of the state is basic.

In times such as these, it is incumbent upon free men to reexamine their most cherished, long-established beliefs. There is only one truly moral position for an honest person to take. He must refrain from coercing his fellows. This means that he should refuse to participate in the process by means of which some men obtain power over others. If you value your right to life, liberty, and property, then clearly there is every reason to refrain from participating in a process that is calculated to remove the life, liberty, or property from any other person. Voting is the method for obtaining legal power to coerce others.

Please click the link in my signature where I go over some details of Agorism which goes hand in hand with the spirit of what I have written here.

Thank you for your time and attention and apologies for my long windedness.

[quote=nickbert]But it’s all relative isn’t it?  We don’t need high speed trains, but one could argue that we also don’t need CT scanners, antibiotics, electricity, indoor plumbing, or metal tools.  We have them because they each improve the quality of life to some degree.[/quote]I’m talking about sustainability, nickbert. That’s why we don’t need high speed trains. High speed trains reek of business as usual. Maybe they can allow airplanes to be substituted for, using less resources but they just enable BAU, unsustainable living, to go on a bit longer. What is the benefit of that, other than short term gratification? Whether or not we also need CT scanners, antibiotics, and so in, is also open for debate but we need to consider each of these in the sustainability headlight. Do they really make sense in a sustainable world? That is, can they be done without compromising sustainability. High speed trains don’t seem to fit in, regardless of how wonderful they sound and how snazzy they look. Reducing resource usage is a necessary action for sustainability but it doesn’t ensure sustainability, at all.[quote=nickbert]Finally, in what way are they inconsistent with living sustainably?  Is there some reason that it’s impossible for them to operate using renewable energy for example?  And is there something inherently bad about using mass transportation that moves quickly, or is that just a value judgement?  IMO it looks like you’re making your argument from a standpoint of belief, not facts.[/quote]I try to avoid beliefs, when considering a future strategy. Basing future strategy on beliefs is very shaky. Remember that renewable energy is not a limitless source of energy - we can only divert that energy from its current uses in powering the earth’s energy and life systems if we can do it without degrading our biosphere and only at levels below the renewal rate. Also, purely running the trains is not the only resource cost of those trains. They have to be built and maintained. The stations have to be built (and the one in the picture is astoundingly wasteful), powered and maintained. But what would be the purpose of mass high speed travel between locations? That’s not localization, in the least. It’s BAU, pure and simple.
 

Consuming fewer resources isn’t sustainable. What’s sustainable is living from the earth’s annual budget of resources and doing so without destroying our habitat (which, by association, includes the habitats of other species).

[quote=cmartenson]I posit that if millions of people were to transit through modern, shiny, highly efficient transportation hubs they’d take home a shifting attitude about what’s important.[/quote]Hmm, yes, they would posit that nice shiny things are important. Efficiency and symbolism would be the last thing on their minds. They got to their high paid job fifty miles away, in no time at all, and it was comfortable an quick. And the station was awesome - so vast with lots of shopping. I can’t see how, on earth, that would lead anyone to think that it’s important to live within the annual budget of the planet without degrading the environment. Just the opposite, that technology is wonderful and can do anything.

Here is an excellent interview with Dr Michael Hudson – worth the view !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pwAFohWBL4

Jim

[quote=Set]Good luck enforcing a “world speed limit.”  Sounds a bit improbable that the whole world would ever agree to this[/quote]Ultimately, it doesn’t really matter what people want if what they want is unsustainable.
Well, I suppose it matters in that those wants prevent transitioning to sustainability, if enough people fight for unsustainability.

[quote=Lionel Hastings]As a result spending more energy to move the train faster may in fact be conserving energy when compared to the alternative of laying another track to satisfy the volume.  Then there is the consideration that the passengers and cargo have a time value.[/quote]This is only relevant in an unsustainable BAU world. Living locally means that those volumes will be way down. So there will be no real trade off in energy terms.[quote=Lionel Hastings]Only bankrupt energy hogs have such luxuries.  Therefore, a very high ceiling is quite practical to allow the heat from the train and passengers to rise and escape in summer.[/quote]An open air staion would also allow that, saving the resource and energy cost of building such a monstrosity (beautiful though it is).

[quote=straight]6. If something is unsustainable it will stop! If it is unsustainable it wont be sustained. It seems to me that high speed travel is unsustainable, it is simply a matter of HOW it stops.  This way means you get to keep your car and your boat and your motor-bike and your snow mobile and your SUV, you simply have to drive it slowly.[/quote]Yes, the unsustainable can’t be sustained. Private motorised transport is unsustainable, driving slowly or quickly.