One way to do it would be to have a religious (and abortion) discussion sandbox.
When a topic or post got flagged as ‘religious’, the post would be relocated to the religious discussion forum, and replaced with a post that consisted of the first line and a half, and then a link.
Part of the problem is that – like even the treebeard topic – religion has to do with one’s world view, and so without discussion there, there are limits to the dialogue that can exist.
So one person thinks they’re just stating facts (or just tellin’ it the way it is), and another thinks it’s religious. Yet another thinks that Morganism always gets a pass, but Schnbbyism always gets flagged… but most people think Morganism is more a lifestyle…
One way to do it would be to have a religious (and abortion) discussion sandbox.
When a topic or post got flagged as ‘religious’, the post would be relocated to the religious discussion forum, and replaced with a post that consisted of the first line and a half, and then a link.
Part of the problem is that – like even the treebeard topic – religion has to do with one’s world view, and so without discussion there, there are limits to the dialogue that can exist.
So one person thinks they’re just stating facts (or just tellin’ it the way it is), and another thinks it’s religious. Yet another thinks that Morganism always gets a pass, but Schnbbyism always gets flagged… but most people think Morganism is more a lifestyle…
quote=Bojo Borcnik
A year ago, I was crying on the kitchen floor, and that marked the end of the old paradigm for me, a Shift moment, if you will. Today I am happier than ever, and yes, it is through releasing and renouncing attachments, and going out of my mind, through emotions all the way to consciousness…It is certainly worth it, there is bliss on the other side!
(…)
[/quote]
Bojo - I too had my 'dark night of soul' moment, one where so much that I thought was true was revealed not to be true and it broke my heart…it broke it open…
The 'old me' would have described the process as full of suffering, painful, raw, and shameful (because crying was involved and men don't do that).
The 'new me' understands that intensity is the doorway to evolution and change. It is the way of life, and it is as true for species development as it is for personal development. So the new me looks back and thanks his lucky stars to have had that awakening at the age of 48 instead of at 78…or maybe never in this lifetime.
I no longer think of intense sensations or emotions in terms of 'bad' or 'good.' I don't call them suffering or painful or bad or unfortunate. I now think of them as less intense or more intense.
I find myself drawn to and inviting greater intensity into my life because that's where real change happens and it's now something I welcome into my life. Why? Because that's where and when real living begins.
I am not here to pass my time as sedately as possible, in the greatest possible comfort. I am here to live, learn and grow.
As to 'which books to read' there are several that can provide some excellent grounding in the basics, but for me true insights that shift my core do not come through my head, they are experiences that I have that confirm some deeper truth for and about me. For me it is a process of combining the head and the body (or mind and heart) because once those two have a shared insight/experience then a deepening shift can occur.
I note that most of western psychology pretends as if everything can and should be funneled through the mind but for me that's a non-starter. It just doesn't work for me. And I've known people who have been in traditional talk therapy for years running over the same old ground. I've also witnessed people confront their shadows and wounds through integrated mind/body practices and literally shift decades old stories in minutes.
Over and over again enough that I am a full believer that we are not our brains…we are our entire bodies and some things get stored as memories in our heads and some get stored as traumas (and /or memories) in our bodies.
Some day the field of 'mental health' will look back on our current 'state of the art' practices and see just how ineffective they were and even harmful to the extent that drugs were issued to mask the symptoms because we literally did not know what else to do because we were looking in the wrong spot for the solution.
Dave,
I too have always liked that Rumsfeld quote, not because it is particularly profound, but because of his unique, technocratic manner. Likewise, the Einstein quote speaks to incremental wisdom that accrues over an examined life and the eventual appreciation of the complexity of our world, and the limits to our knowledge. Einstein delved deeply into the particulars of how the universe works – but unfortunately, never came to knowledge of the Truth. “Always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth” is one of my favorite Paul quotes.
Tough to answer this briefly, but I will try.
Thankfully, I don't have to operate with full understanding of all things - some things are the providence of God alone, a mystery not revealed to mankind, or are not knowable (by men). His ways are not our ways, but as my 2 year old instinctively trusts me in a complex and confusing world, I trust Him. Therefore I proceed without specific knowledge of how everything works, but with general knowledge about who is running the show, and that's enough. Answers to many of the tough questions are available however.
As Rumsfeld correctly posits, unknown unknowns exist, but I don’t reject what I know as a result. What evidence would I use? If we rejected all things as unknowable because some things are unknowable we would be denying the obvious. To some extent, we all operate on faith – some have faith in the idea that there is no God – but they cannot prove it. The evidence of design in our world points me to belief that He exists and is responsible for all that we observe. The interesting question from this point is “who is God?” We can’t explore that question here.
To point of this excellent podcast is becoming the change we wish to see, and an exploration of “inner self”. My journey on that road is informed by my faith. Is it any less valid to share my personal experience because its origin is Christianity? I hope not.
My worldview starts with knowledge of the big picture. Within this framework, the scientific particulars have context. The scientific method seeks to understand the big picture by first studying the particulars. At the risk of opening up a can of worms, I will use creation vs. evolution as an example.
A creationist worldview starts with a Creator of unlimited intelligence and power. When the astounding complexities of our world are examined rationally and with the scientific method, I stand in awe of the obvious design intelligence that produced our world. The remarkable details of DNA prove (to me) through their information bearing properties, that they have the stamp of the design. The question of origin is answered and the observable details support the idea of intelligent design.
An evolutionist worldview examines the same complexity and is left with randomness and time as an explanation. No answers to origin (panspermia just shifts the question to another planet), no ability to observe or repeat the experiment and prove the theory. An unsatisfying, faith based declaration that all life evolved from single cell organisms. The probability of accidents generating a hummingbird is not a repeatable experiment – but the secular world accepts the theory anyway.
The crazy part of the whole thing is that we can know the Truth, but most people see it as foolishness.
Rector
With reference to Chris's quote, below, I suspect that pretty well all of the people who frequent this site have had their own "dark night of the soul" moment, which is why they gravitated here, to this site.
Bojo - I too had my 'dark night of soul' moment, one where so much that I thought was true was revealed not to be true and it broke my heart...it broke it open...My own dark night of the soul moment was very much in keeping with Chris's experience - the moment of realization that what I thought to be true was not true. It was truly heart rending, for I knew that I was forever changed and that in turn would potentially alter the relationships with some of those closest to me who still hold beliefs in the status quo. That created profound sadness. But at the same time, I also felt like I was finally, really and truly awake. It is so liberating to have the strength of my convictions, without hesitancy or wavering; to be rock solid in what I believe, which is the message of the three E's (four E's if we include existence). The hard part for me has largely been the emotional resilience; feeling like a tiny island of belief in a sea of non-believers. With the waves of lies and propaganda constantly crashing against the shores of my emotional island, threatening erosion of beliefs in that which I know to be true, it is hard at times to maintain the levy and keep the waves at bay. This is in no small measure made harder by the non-believers who are close to me, who only see calm seas, with no storms on the horizon.The 'old me' would have described the process as full of suffering, painful, raw, and shameful (because crying was involved and men don't do that).
The 'new me' understands that intensity is the doorway to evolution and change. It is the way of life, and it is as true for species development as it is for personal development. So the new me looks back and thanks his lucky stars to have had that awakening at the age of 48 instead of at 78…or maybe never in this lifetime.
It is telling how this article struck such a cord with the readership, resulting in so many comments. Even though over the past year I have backed away from active participation on this site, I continue to gravitate here for reasons like this podcast, and the articles on resilient living. And for being able to connect with people who have similar beliefs and are on their own little islands, also trying to keep the waves at bay. We are like an archipelago - a chain of islands populated with those who have all had their dark night of the soul moments, and who came out on the other side of it enlightened.
With all due respect Chris and Adam I encourage you to have more podcasts like this, and to de-emphasize the focus on precious metals and monetary wealth. I would surmise that most here have hedged their bets by owning some physical precious metals. Great! Tuck them away for what they are meant to be, a bet to hedge against uncertainty. Does it really matter what the daily price or spot price is? Is it really worth having the endless debates over the daily PM commentary? How many really care about this stuff? I do not. There are far more pressing things to occupy my time. With each passing day the globe is in that much more of a precarious position. Social unrest is popping up all over at an increasing rates. It won't take much for a serious escalation that will snowball in a hurry. The currency war is in full swing, being driven by resource wars that threaten global stability in a way that we have not seen since the (last) cold war. The (so called) world leadership are nothing more than a collection of corrupt, short sighted, misguided, inept, greedy people who will succeed in destroying everything that matters to the survival of all species, not just we humans. I want to be as ready as I can so that I can still enjoy my life as much as possible, regardless of what gets thrown at us.
The need has never been greater for the development of emotional resilience and a solid skill set to ensure a truly prosperous existence in the face of a rapid societal breakdown. An existence that means healthy lifestyles, healthy home grown food, sustainable ways of living, and an emphasis on helping keep the collective belief levies strong, so that the archipelago can grow, and ultimately form a new nation state that is based on the true reality of our times.
Jan
[quote=westcoastjan]…I knew that I was forever changed and that in turn would potentially alter the relationships with some of those closest to me who still hold beliefs in the status quo. That created profound sadness. But at the same time, I also felt like I was finally, really and truly awake. It is so liberating to have the strength of my convictions, without hesitancy or wavering; to be rock solid in what I believe, which is the message of the three E's (four E's if we include existence). The hard part for me has largely been the emotional resilience; feeling like a tiny island of belief in a sea of non-believers. With the waves of lies and propaganda constantly crashing against the shores of my emotional island, threatening erosion of beliefs in that which I know to be true, it is hard at times to maintain the levy and keep the waves at bay. This is in no small measure made harder by the non-believers who are close to me, who only see calm seas, with no storms on the horizon.
[/quote]
God this quote rings true.
I would only add that, from a personal perspective, in this knowledge lies a responsibility and duty to set the best example possible for those close to you that have yet to awaken. Build a lighthouse on that tiny island. And then stand at the highest point and scream at the storm.
I think Internal Prep is ground zero of resiliency. How else could we make sound decisions toward our happiness, our health, and our wealth? I would gladly be a part of this. The larger 'spiritual' questions are truly roots of practicality, giving rise to one of the most health-giving neurological experiences: WONDER…
The Book of Gardens: A Lover's Manual for Planet Earth.
Thx again Chris & the PP team,
Phil
Many years ago I penned the following.
Programming/Deprogramming/Reprogramming
PROGRAMMING
- Inherited genetics, plus Childhood conditioning (socialization) -believe that I am a person with an ego -believe that the world is real as sensed through the five senses -believe that God is the Judeo-Christian Father in the sky (heaven) -believe in my religious training -believe that I have free will.
DEPROGRAMMING
- Aware of different cultural programming= relativity of programming
- Quantum Physics: I'm more space than solidity
- Different religions with different beliefs (each has THE truth!!) Contradictions abound. Buddhists don't even believe in God.
- Meditation; new emphasis--instead of From Without to Within, now, From Within to Without (a la Zen)
REPROGRAMMING
- A Course in Miracles and Advaita Vedanta (Indian thought),1 both stressing NON-DUAL TEACHINGS.
- The ego and the world are illusions. Both of these are the dreamt.
- Go beyond the CONCEPT of God to the CONCEPTS of Consciousness or Source. And even beyond ALL concepts as they are just POINTERS. For the Infinite cannot be comprehended!
- Realize that there is only this body-mind organism being used by the Dreamer for Its own design.
- Wake up to ONENESS/UNICITY (an impersonal awareness), there are no objects only Subjectivity,2 with manifestation WITHIN Itself).
- A New Species arising3 The Final Understanding is experienced.4 No free will! Just conditioned to believe you have free will.5 And Consciousness manifests Its will through these body-mind organisms.
- So Enlightenment and Endarkenment yield to Enlivenment.6 The opposites are reconciled and the illusion as well as the Reality can be embraced.
Footnotes:
- See the literature listed in the Vision of the Point of Infinity--visitwww.NewAgePointofInfinity.com
- Ask the Awakened, by Wei Wu Wei.
- A New Earth: Awakening to Your Life's Purpose, by Eckhart Tolle.
- Your Head in The Tiger's Mouth: Talks in Bombay with Ramesh Balsekar, ed. by Blayne Bardo. "So all that happens is that Consciousness is witnessing whatever is happening among the objects It has created. And that wanting to know Itself is something that is created by Consciousness."
- "Nothing can happen unless it is God's will."
- The Laughing Jesus: Religious Lies and Gnostic Wisdom, by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy.
My last post was written many years ago. So I thought I ought to UPDATE the post:
NO Programming?
Is this possible?
To be Open to the
Here and Now
To go with the Flow
To get OUT of the way
To surrender relaxfully
To be detached
To accept WHATEVER comes
"Action in inaction, Inaction in action"
Is even THIS a program?
So, IF free will,
choose your program
Maybe the programless program??
Decartes: I think, therefore I am
Leibnitz: I feel, therefore I am
Goswami: I choose, therefore I am
BUT how choose if all DUALITY
is but a DREAM?
Maybe, unconscious processing/awareness
with DREAMWORK, might be the key
Do-Be-Do-Be-Do-Be (1)
Action with periods of non-action, etc.
Footnote:
The Visionary Window, Goswami, page170:
"Primary-awareness experiences occur at the first
collapse of the quantum possibility waves in the
brain-mind complex that arise in response to a stimulus.
The "split" of the one consciousness into subject and
object occurs at this level, but the subject is still universal;
the emphasis is on the verb EXPERIENCE, not on the
experiencer or on what is experienced. This universal self--the quantum self--is the transpersonal self of transpersonal pyschology;
it is also the atman of Vedanta philosophy, the no-self of Buddhism, and the Holy Spirit of Christanity. But experiences (quantum measurements
in the brain-mind) causes memory.
Secondary-awareness experiences via reflection in the mirror of
memory in an individual brain-mind complex give a sense of personal identity, the ego. The ability to reflect arises as part of the secondary-awareness process. The obscuration of the tangled hierarchy of the
primary process is fundamental to the simple-hierarchical identification of ourself with the ego--"I"
…But for a couple of excited seconds, I thought you meant DAN Hicks…https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fS1Pbb0-JTY
NOTE: Listening, frequently, to Tolle's audio tapes, these contrasts arose
Walking Between Two Worlds: Phenomenal vs. Noumenal
| Phenomenal Aspects physical existence relative forms creation manifest polarity perceived past/future secondary dreamt stuckness defensive/allowing thinking mind/ practical mind death no! shoulds happiness/ unhappiness transit mind/no mind personal intelligence doer/non-doer will/no will identification/ disidentification mental noise/ sense sensations busy unbalanced resutame/acceptance unsatisfied/satisfied outer state/ inner state old consciousness/ new consciousness conditioned action scattered words/pointers deeds information present time creative insight restlessness object consciousness | Noumenal Reality Essence Absolute Formless Source Unmanifest Unity Perceiver Now primary Dreamer Spaciousness what exists Awareness Life yes! what is Peace Permanent Beyond Mind greater Intelligence Doer Destiny/Fate1 beyond identity Silence Stillness Harmony it is, as it is Emptiness/Void Consciousness Consciousness Unconditioned IT happens Attention know directly Grace Knowledge/Wisdom Suchness Aware Presence Stillness Emptiness |
The unreal and the Real, The unreal "reality" and the "real Reality" asleep and awake Thanks be to Buddha; and, to Jesus, properly understood.
Great comment Jan, I particularly like your 'islands in the archipelago" metaphor. My own version is not quite as picturesque. I see a ripe red tomato (our industrial society) flying through the air towards a brick wall (limits to growth). When it hits there will probably be a very messy splat and the tomato will be obliterated - but many seeds will survive undamaged and will (I hope) find fertile conditions to grow and thrive. We are potentially the seeds of a new culture.By the way that was a remarkable video from Bankers Slave. Where do people find these gems?
I think that I have been through the crying – when I hadn’t worked my field for over 5 years, and had worked other jobs, and needed to clear the old out of the way. It was, if you will, a healthy depression: 1 - 2 full days of crying, and yet the awareness that it would accomplish its task. And it did.
That is NOTHING like the dark night of the soul. To understand that as an outsider, you have to read St. John of the Cross. His writing was the definition of it.
It was more like what another poster said, realizing everything you knew to be true wasn’t, with a huge exception: you still know it is true, only your own whole foundation has washed away, for you alone.
Mother Theresa, after taking on her great work, lost all sense of God. She had to carry on without it. THAT is the dark night of the soul. Brother Lawrence, before he saw the winter trees and understood that they were like his soul, was sure that his soul was worthless and headed for destruction, without any real specific cause. That was the dark night of the soul. Jonhn Bunyan, in his autobiography “Grace Abundant to the chiefest of sinners" came to the question of whether all promises were valid and true, but inaccessible to him. That was the dark night of the soul.
The author of “It is well with my soul” wrote “when peace like a river attends my way, when sorrows like sea billows roll”. Understand that his daughters were all beneath the atlantic waves, and so was he in a real sense. Those weren’t billows under his boat, they were billows of sorrows over his head; and the peace like a river, is an incomprehensible peace, just an external stilling of a grief so great that it would destroy you. It is, indeed, a ‘peace beyond all understanding’. But it is a terrible, horrible, event: THAT is the dark night of the soul.
When Christ died on the cross, having fulfilled all of the commands, and instead of being taken up in glory, underseood that his next two steps were to be death and hell (as per the nicene creed), and cried out, ‘My God, My God, why have you abandoned me?’, and then in that peace beyond all understanding, ‘into your hands I commend my spirit’…
That is the dark night of the soul.
I found Peter Kingsley's In The Dark Places of Wisdom to be excellent. Ancient Greek practices, especially "incubation," to be VERY worthwhile. Enjoy.
Deathwork
- Practicing Deathwork(1) Ideas, visions, creativity arising. Conflict: to get up and DO! But, stay with "TO BE" Experiencing just "being," detaching from "doing"
- Will I jump out of my skin? Need to release sounds--can't stand the energy, the gratitude, the "grace!" For me,"to be" is much harder than "to do."
- Yet, it's delicious to travel the road of death while still alive!
Footnotes:
- Deathwork is my personal self-healing practice which I found confirmed in Peter Kingsley's book, In The Dark Places of Wisdom. Three cheers for Pythagoras and Parmenides!
- Click here for a description of the practice: basically lying down motionless, imperceptibly breathing for hours. This work is similiar to my Zen of Deep Relaxation workshops.
Question: "How are you when you are by yourself?"
"The more I pondered the question, the more I had to admit to myself that when alone, if I was not working, I was restless and bored. Rarely was I alone and at peace." So, says Goswami on page 219.
Interesting. Can you imagine being somewhere, without anyone, no books, no newspaper, no TV, no radio, no music, no work, no computer, no CELL PHONE or other new talking device, etc??? No gold/silver, geopolitical conversation, no trading, NOTHING??
Just you, totally and completely by yourself for a few hours, a day, a few days, a week, a month (if you had such luxury), what do you imagine you would experience? Would you FINALLY meet yourself, whatever THAT is? Or, would you run away, escaping such an encounter? Would fear arise, boredom, restlessness, bordering on insanity? Would you plunge into the direct experience of the "Dark Night of the Soul," welcomed by you for your development and growth?
Ah, such fun contemplating such a question. Hugs, Zen
Hi all,
Interesting discussion. I've posted before about being a long term meditator. In the southeast asian tradition there are the dukkha jhanas. A group of practitioners at dharmaoverground.org call that territory the "Dark Night of the Soul". St. John describes that territory wonderfully within his tradition. There is a way out/beyond/past the dark night. If interested, find Daniel Ingram's book - "Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha". It is accessible by any spiritual tradition as it is not dogmatic. Pragmatism, experience, reality is the intention. What am I experiencing right now! That is real! Daniel claims enlightenment and I believe him (he is an acquaintance and his descriptions match my experiences). Lots of folks have made it. Historically enlightenment has become mystified, dogmatic, mysterious, et al. It isn't. Read the book, go to dharmaoverground.org. Don’t believe me, that’s just dogma. Go see for yourself!
…finally, open, emotionally charged, real world, Chris Martenson sharing. So long in the making. Nice Chris. Been there, done that. BOB
Don35. Thanks for the tip. FYI: I went to amazon.com and read the first two very positive reviews of his book (especially the 2nd one) and then I read the first critical review–WOW, such discrepancy! Makes one wonder, no?, especially when he calls himself an "enlightened" being. "He who doesn't know, says he does; he who knows, says nothing," or something like that.
Anyway, here's a little something from me. Experience, not book reading. CF: Confessions of an Ex-Jesuit. As Chris says, MAYBE 4 Es: Economy, Environment, Energy and EXPERIENCE.
DEATH: Existentially Experimenting with Experience
- Lie down, relax, let go. Imagine you're dead. Feel AS IF you are dead. What's it like to be dead? Gradually thoughts dissipate, same for emotions.
- Now be aware, awake, alert. What are you EXPERIENCING right now? Observe, watch, witness what's happening.
- Silence, stillness, quiet now reigns. No past, no future--just NOW. Surrendering, emptiness is is sensed/felt/experienced. Imperceptively breathing, continually releasing. Awareness presents itself.
- The sense of self disappears, a shift of perception occurs. Directly experiencing my true nature. I am that which is watching. Awakening from ALL identifications, ALL conditionings. Awakening FROM the "me." Going beyond the veil of duality.
- Seeking ends: the seeker and the seeking dissolve. An experience of complete and utter non-resistance. Experience the energy of nondivision! Awakedness wakes up from the "me" and wholeness/unity is experienced. Finally the dreamstate yields to Absolute Reality.
- Thus, my personal worldview/my personal self is nothing but a dream in Universal mind. The bondage broken; Free at last! Surrendering is the name of the game. Willfulness is replaced by a sense of flow The Holy Spirit becomes Wholistc Consciousness. So. . . let it happen.