Good of you to reply.
Here is what you posted “You speak of ugly facts, let me give you some; We have an uncertain future ahead which circumstances suggest is going to be harder. We are going to have to make due with less. We are going to have to learn to employ ingenuity to get by.”
WE is a collective. So when I Say collective I am using collective the same way you are using WE.
The paradigm you outline is one of many possibilities. This site has since the beginning that WE will have to “make do with less” . That is certainly a possibility, for some . It is not true for the owners of this site and apparently it is not true for you.
You state “we have an uncertain future ahead” . Well nothing has really changed in 4 billion years. As the old saying goes " the only thing certain is death and taxes".
Clearly you are quite defensive about your particular choice. It is not necessary. I have homesteaded since 1971. I know exactly what it entails and I also know it is suitable, or even possible, for an extremely small segment of the population.
I am extremely optimistic about MY future (except for the death and taxes part lol)
So have a good holidays. The future is so bright you will have to wear shades.
I understand very well what Mohammed means. Not everyone is in the position to build a homestead. I think it will be a very small minority who can do that.
On Wednesday I become the owner of a piece of land. 750 square meters. That is converted 0.185 acre. 0.185! and I consider myself very fortunate to have been given that opportunity and to be in a position to afford it. Land is scarce in Belgium and therefore expensive. I’m going to use that piece of land to grow vegetables, herbs, fruit and chickens there in the way they do at Singing Frogs. That’s something I learned here on PP. I will also plant willow and linden trees there to be able to harvest deadwood. That’s on a different order of magnitude than Chris’s sawmill, but that’s where the idea came from.
So I make a kind of derivative of what Chris does, but within my own capabilities. From large scale to small. Making that derivative is something I miss here on PP. You have to make that derivative for yourself and that’s a shame.
I’d really like to see us talk more about that. What do you do if you don’t have a garden at all, or even a balcony? Could it be possible to keep quail in an apartment? How do you get rainwater in an apartment if you don’t have a balcony? Does 1 solar panel in front of the window provide enough to burn a light at night? How do you cook in an apartment without electricity or gas? But also topics such as, where can you find Community Supported Agriculture in a big city? How can you collaborate with your neighbors in your apartment building to jointly do projects and share things? How do you grow vegetables indoors? Those kinds of topics.
Let’s work together more and work things out like this, based on the big-scale example of Chris and Evie.
@Mohammed: I live in a suburban area and have that 0.185 acre plot of land 10 miles away. What is your situation?
Of course when I speak of “we” I imply a group of individuals not a collective acting as a single unit.
I hope the holiday finds you well, and hopefully, even though you resist, some of what I have said will sink in. No need for negativity regarding other people’s outlooks or choices. If I am defensive, it was by way of reaction to your offensive choice of words. Maybe Im reading it wrong.
Homesteading, like everything in life, is not for everyone but for those of us who practice it, it works for us.
Thanks again.
B
“So what would lead you to believe that there is a path open to us that will actually serve all those baby boomers and the rest of our generations? Homesteading certainly isn’t the solution to all of our woes… but what is?”
Well since I first read " The End of Money" by Chris Martenson I have been investigating your question. I found it 9 years ago. The answer is really quite simple. SOUND MONEY.
I got my first BTC 9 years ago this month. Gold bugs are right about gold being sound money. Unfortunately it is no longer money. BTC was developed by Satoshi Nakamoto in response to the meltdown of 08. It is a superior solution to sound money than gold.
For an in depth exposition I suggest “The Bitcoin Standard” by Safiedean Ammous.
Bitcoin is far more than a speculative asset despite what most of the media and discussions would lead you to believe.
Or alternatively one could look to Buddhism the basis of which is “Life is Suffering” Then one could embrace the Eight Fold Noble Path which provides a way out of suffering.
This is more inline with what I am planning as well.
I found a lot of inspiration from the couple in this video, who are hitting on all of the important points of reliance, self-sustainability, and community while living on 1/10 of an acre in the suburbs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeNaMlibiak&ab_channel=HappenFilms
Making that derivative is something I miss here on PP. You have to make that derivative for yourself and that's a shame.... I'd really like to see us talk more about that.You and I both Hans, you and I both. I started a thread a month or so ago inquiring about successes and failures of our little group as regards becoming more independent/self-reliant. I was honestly curious how we did in 2020. Sadly it flamed out and I deleted it after a couple days with no replies. :) Congratulations on your property purchase! I have never been to Belgium, and only to Europe one time, but like a lot of Europe I have seen some absolutely beautiful photos of the place. Let us know how things turn out with your new home. :) Will
Mohammed: I’d love to see us with a currency that is less prone to abuse. And I think having a harder form of money would have precluded the decimation of our industrial base. But I am far from sure it would cure all of our ills.
I can point to a lot of problems that are more related to energy than anything else. Some of them seemingly unsolvable. So although I do think we can improve the currency situation a whole heck of a lot I still think it is only one of the many problems we face now.
But I could well be mistaken.
Will
PW: I am an X’er not a Boomer, so there’s my age. Me too. But I don’t think this matters in the pursuit of truth, as one should live every minute of life to the fullest.
PW: I am not generally given to fanboy followings or conspiracy theories. Me too. The difficulty is knowing what “is” reality, as things are getting very odd by the day.
PW: I have to say that what I have seen of the trajectory of my nation has been alarming.
Here is where we might disagree. Why? Because I think the last 50 years of peace and prosperity in the USA has been the unusual part, mere luck. not the historical norm of humanity. So I am mentally prepared for the complete collapse of the USA, and expect it. Any nation is made up of people and culture, and the USA has wide open borders, a mixing pot of race and culture that no longer melts, and even lacks rule of law anymore.
This is reality. I don’t let my likes or dislikes interfere with understanding reality.
PW: In my lifetime we have traded off our manufacturing and industrial tax bases for State Dept. alliances at the behest of a completely out of touch economic profession. We have taken an education system that was the envy of the world and turned it into a cross between a baby sitting institution and a support group. We have taken one of the most inward looking and isolationist nations and turned it into one that is both feared and loathed in large swaths of the world because of belligerence and a need for constant conflict. We’ve taken the world’s deepest and most transparent bond market and turned it into a free candy store for Wall St… one could go on forever.
I agree with all of this. It won’t be fixed. Why? Because a nation is made up of people, and our families and culture have broken down. So every institution will break down slowly at best, quickly at worst. This is who we are today as a people.
I’m not saying we face a collapse. Hell I don’t believe that myself.
I do, but only if you think that living in Detroit or Mexico is a “collapse”. Myself, I think it mere common sense to be prepared for rapid change, and makes for a better, healthier life anyway.
Congratulations on your purchase, Hans. I wish you a wonderful, productive journey with this little piece of land. Tell us how it goes!
I have 6000 square feet (557 square meters, 1/7th acre). On that I garden extensively and also have a very small house. Do I want more? For sure. I’d love the privacy and space of 10 acres or more but that’s out of my reach so I work with this. The garden is a bliss and a wonder, and surprisingly huge given how small it is. The produce output is overwhelming - far more than I could eat - and the quality is usually outstanding. Sure, there is a learning curve and problem solving is a constant necessity (pests, properly built plant supports, managing increasingly weird weather, regulations, time management). Every year I love this little homestead more deeply, and yes, 1/7th acre IS enough to homestead. The scale is smaller, but the love of the land, the willingness to work and learn, the understanding that it is up to me to function in this biosphere just like any other animal and the need to manage resources wisely is all the same.
I’d like to represent for all the people who will never afford an acre, much less 100. Many of those have lawns bigger than my garden, or neighbors with lawns, or a suburban property that leverages to an acre on the land. We can take a lot of responsibility for our own sustenance. Let’s not be slowed in that vital process by stories of other people who do have dozens or hundreds of acres. Any farmer or homesteader will tell you that it takes time to learn the skills of working with the land, so start now. Microgreens in the bathroom window will teach a lot about plants, light, water, beauty and gratitude. One zucchini plant is a lesson in the generosity of the plant world.
The next step for me is a decision: to carry on as a market gardener, or give that up and move into supplying as many of my own food needs as possible here. Market gardening in this sparsely populated area is not proving profitable. I work tons, have great customers who love my produce, and… come up with, sadly, hardly any cashy money at the end of the season. I love growing food and don’t intend to stop, but need to consider the financial side too so I can retire someday. Maybe it’s time for a new strategy: chickens, ducks, hulless grains, possibly a pig if space allows, a rental tiny house (?).
I work full time. Can anyone tell me if having small livestock is a terrible idea if no-one is home during the day to protect and care for the critters? We have bear, cougars and some horrid local chicken-killing dogs cruising through occasionally. I will have to plan for bullet-proof deterrence.
Can we have a discussion sometime, small-holders, on the issue of dietary fats? How do we produce them if we can’t just grow and process and acre of sunflowers, or have a pig or a diary cow? What did you try? How did it work?
Tiny homesteads rule!
Susan
Thanks for the question. I had a 142 acre farm. I downsized to 4 acres
I guess you missed the part about “The Bitcoin Standard” Probably doesn’t matter nobody reads books anymore, unless the name of the book is Facebook.
We have been w/o sound money for so long (5 generations), none of us know what it means anymore. We have to rely on history to get an idea and once again this being the United States of Amnesia we as a country don’t remember what we had for breakfast and if we do what we had is not what we thought it was.
It appears to me that there are many new people here, mainly because of covid coverage, that have not watched the crash course. Thus we for the most part have very superficial discussions around the issues.
I am not going to summarize all the points raised by Ammous. I don’t have the time, patience and I hate to type.
But I will say this ALL decisions made in a sound money regime are vastly different from those made in an unsound money regime. Yes energy is an issue. It is an issue for the future not the present. There is plenty of energy now. Just ask China. Energy is not an excuse for our current circumstances. Unsound money is.
I have 1.7 acres, about 1 acre cleared. Plenty for a vegan, but not enough to harvest adequate firewood.
20, 40, or 100 acres sounds delightful, but practical?
I did the math. Unless I screwed something up, there are 0.44 acres of arable land on the planet per human. That’s not enough to accommodate lots of large homesteads. It’s also not enough to accommodate animal agriculture for the majority of humans.
I too live on a tiny plot, about .15 acres, in the suburbs. My plot is heavily shaded which means I can’t grow much, if anything, other than hostas. But the trees keep the house ten degrees cooler in the summer. I wouldn’t want to cut them down just to have a garden…so I don’t have one. I would love to see a unit on what those of us who can’t garden, can’t have livestock etc. can do. There are a lot of people in apartments who can’t have more than a few pots of cherry tomatoes on their terraces. Or are getting up there in age or lack the amazing skills that Chris has, so hardcore homesteading just isn’t going to happen, or can’t leave for greener pastures for other reasons. What advice for those of us who fall in that bracket? No excuses here! Just explaining life as it is for many of us who wish we could do what Chris and some of you are doing but can’t.
Tiny homesteads rule!Kudos to you herewego. I'm not sure I can offer any solutions to your questions but you have the homesteading spirit that demands respect. Hats off. :)
What advice for those of us who fall in that bracket?That is a very good question dzie44. It reminded me of a little place I had forgotten about. It was in the Chicago suburbs backed up to the Waterfall Glen forest preserve, no way to enlarge or go big. When I lived in the neighborhood I would run the trail though this preserve each weekend and every time I'd go by this little oasis. It was maybe half an acre or so. Simple but neat house. It had a couple apple trees and pear trees in the yard where each was open center pruned to keep them on the small side. A thicket of what looked like elderberries in the yard and the entire fence covered with grapevines. There was an herb garden along the walkway. It seemed like every place you looked there was something growing and making the place into an enviable little home. Mohammed: I was thinking more along the lines of the cul-de-sacs, in a policy sense that we are in... energy wise. And why I consider the teaching of energy concepts so important and why I am blessed to be able to do it. For instance: The entire concept of a fiat 'reserve currency' was to allow the US to purchase oil directly with the dollar which we controlled. This was in response to not only the inability to restrain spending but also because we had expended a large portion of our national oil reserves and needed to buy it elsewhere. But using the reserve currency politically ( a folly no nation could resist) was THE primary tool used to destroy our industrial base. How to back out of this w/o crashing the system? Damned if I know. I only know that Thermodynamics is at the heart of this issue and no amount of hard currency is going to solve it for us. Another example: Climate change. If this is a real thing, and I am inclined to think it is, then that is an energy problem that perhaps has no solution. But it makes teaching the way energy works (pun intended :) ) a much needed endeavour. And it is another issue that hard currency cannot fix. But that is just my opinion. Again, I could be wrong. Will
As has been repeated exhaustingly; Not everyone can homestead to a level that somebody else can. We’re all in agreement. However, each person CAN become more self reliant and strive to be more resilient.
If I couldnt homestead to the level I am now, what would I do? I would find a skill or gain the means to produce something of value. I would also work to create a network of people with skills and resources that might help me.
Not everyone can, should, or wants to be a small farmer. Nobody would suggest such a thing but thats not an excuse for you to do nothing. FIND small farmers and put yourself in a position to have something to offer.
Im a very self reliant homesteader/farmer but there are still things I need and could use. I need a support system, especially if the SHTF. Are you a nurse? Me or my family will need medical attention at some point in our lives. Can you weld, tinker, build? I can use you, and you can use me. This is how societies work.
So homesteading is not a thing where we close our gates and turn our back on the world. Its not a thing that if you cant do it you can’t benefit or be part of it. If you can’t homestead, support those that do. Right now many of us are producing alot of good things that the current centralized, mass produced market says have little value.
Become part of the local support structure for farmers, homesteaders and other local businesses. Don’t just dismiss it because you can’t do it. There are either local solutions which are the result of individuals like our selves making choices…or there are massive global solutions made for you.
I, personally, have had my fill of discussions about a gold backed currency…breaking up big tech…passing laws that limit the power of the people in charge, etc,etc. None of those things are going to happen. You have exactly ZERO power to effect any of those things and talking about them is a complete waste of time.
If the state of the currency devaluation is troubling you why havent you tried to establish a barter network in your area? If you see big tech as a problem why are you still using Google products? Do you have a microsoft OS or have you switched to Linux? Worried about big Ag, are you buying at least a portion of your food from local producers? I know, I know “you dont understand Brushhog, not everybody can…”
Yes there are many coping mechanisms. Which you choose depends on your situation. The point which you finally admitted is homesteading is not the panacea it is presented as here. That was my point.
As for barter and local currencies they are legacy systems which work on an extremely small scale.
As you have stated before you hate crypto currency and as a busy homesteader with more to do than time I can see why you have not taken the time to explore all that is happening in the Crypto space. There is an entire parallel financial and monetary system being developed. Ammous goes into far more detail than I will. Suffice it to say the sound money protocol of the future will be crypto.
Boomers don’t understand it and thus dismiss it. The people who understand it and will benefit are the younger generations. The monetary/financial system has virtually destroyed their future. They aint stupid. They know it was designed for boomers and not them. They know SS, and Medicare will not be around for them, even though they are paying for it. They are being crushed by student debt. They don’t want any part of the legacy system. They don’t want a piece of that toxic pie , they want to bake a new pie.
The future is theirs and it is now.
Yes I understand the energy concepts you are talking about.
They are part of the paradigm here. Got it. We are doomed. Oli will run out.
Got it.
I have a friend who is very much into fusion. Yeah I know it is always 30 years away. But China as with everything else is way ahead on that front. Fusion is much closer than most imagine. Of course the US is fat , dumb and happy and we just elected a president who thinks all China does is make shoes. Well that and provide billions for his son. Ah but I digress.
I am not as pessimistic as most here. Sound money leads to very different decisions in regards to allocation
“Yes there are many coping mechanisms. Which you choose depends on your situation. The point which you finally admitted is homesteading is not the panacea it is presented as here. That was my point.”
No Im not letting you slide on that one, buddy. LOL. We’ve been telling YOU that homesteading isnt for everybody but is still a worthy subject. Whether or not its for everybody isnt the point, thats what you’ve been told numerous times by numerous posters here. Nor has anybody ever represented homesteading as a “panacea”.
A little more intellectual honesty would make these conversations alot more productive and interesting. Any how, happy holidays.
Hi Dzie,
Before this 1/7 acre village homestead life, I was in a small condo in the middle of Vancouver. After watching Chris’ Crash Course, and also based on what I knew in my bones from an off-grid, homesteading childhood, I chose at age 50 to leave that completely unsustainable city life. No regrets, though this has been very hard at times.
If you can leave your current situation for one that does allow you to begin to support yourself with or without our unsustainable economy, I would do it now. If you truly can’t, then fast track building a skill set that makes you valuable. Medicine, defense, the trades, leadership or good support of a good leader. Get the tools, and stock the required materials. I think being hapless (not saying you are 'cause I don’t know that) won’t be an option when the going gets rough. We have some time now to re-tool our lives towards resilience. If food production can’t work, what could you bring that would make a farmer want to trade with you?
Susan