Guess who is a
- former lawyer for Microsoft
- Was in charge of the United States EMP threat for the past few years
- Was in charge of US cybersecurity for the last few years
- Hmmm why should that make you NOT feel warm and secure
"
I did the math. Unless I screwed something up, there are 0.44 acres of arable land on the planet per human. That’s not enough to accommodate lots of large homesteads. It’s also not enough to accommodate animal agriculture for the majority of humans."
You actually don't need arable land to raise most livestock. If you choose both the animal and fodder wisely.
Mulberry is a great tree which can feed humans and livestock and doesn't need arable land. Keep 'em coppiced and feed the leaves to your ruminants. Let some grow tall to harvest the mast.
My plan this year is to plant about 100 mulberry, hazelnuts, and apples.
Check out the 1929 classic Tree Crops: a Permanent Agriculture.
CJ Sloane said:
You actually don't need arable land to raise most livestock. If you choose both the animal and fodder wisely.Yep. And, too, we can reclaim a lot of desert and near desert through soil farming. Soil farming needs animals; animals we can eat. It's been demonstrated in most all climates - I suspect you know but many don't - and even in the Jordanian desert where water is at a premium and the desert soil salty. Also, farming the soil in the world's remaining breadbaskets, to improve fertility while harvesting crops, is a sure way to get larger crops and more nutrient dense crops year over year. This, too, is demonstrated. One advantage of nutrient dense crops, vs. today's commercially produced and nutrient-deficient foodstuffs, is that we can eat less and be better fed: more mouths fed per acre of more abundantly produced food. Including animals. Get the Western world off of carbohydrates as a primary energy source and back onto fats and we'll cure a lot of modern illnesses, too. Get suburban dwellers into their back yard gardens to both harvest produce and get the gentle consistent exercise human bodies thrive on, and health will go up while food consumption will go down, since we better metabolize what we eat when we're moving much more than we're sitting. It's no mystery, is it? There's just a lot of people who know things that aren't true.
Agree 100% especially about fat v carbs. Funny how concerns about monetary policy have led to so many people homesteading and going low carb!
PS Does the VT stand for Vermont? I’ve been living here off grid since '92.
Yep, in VT. Howdy neighbor. I’m 2 stones throw from Calvin Coolidge’s burial plot. Not off-grid, but we can be if circumstances make it necessary.
All but dumped carbs 9 years ago. Cleared out my joint aches and incipient hand arthritis, cleared my brain fog, increased my vitality, and I dropped 30-odd pounds without trying. Oh, and (impossible as they say it is), over the last 2 years I’ve been gaining a range of color vision denied me by lifelong red-green colorblindness. So, something’s going on in the rods and cones of my eyes, too.
Time to learn to salt meat?
It could well be the ultimate barter currency.
You can’t remain healthy on a vegan diet alone. You need animal foods.
Salted meat needs no refrigeration.
…hmmm … 62 years old — been Vegan/Vegetarian for 32 years … Teloyears test … had me biological at 39 years old… think of the diets of the biggest animals on earth … any “healthy” diet life style works … must be some reason/logic that Americans spend the most on “Health” care (almost 18% of our GDP … more then Germany’s Entire Economy)… with the worse health outcomes …with 42% Obesity …
Can you share from which plants you getting the following nutrients or you take a jar of pills every day?
Vitamin B12, Creatine, Carnosine, Vitamin D3, Docosahexaenoic acid (DHA), Heme iron, Taurine
Regards,Did you watch The Game Changers documentary for example?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSpglxHTJVM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ove9b16OeR4
Perhaps try reading this book.
This is going to be a bit long sorry. I can’t answer for anyone else so I hope others will respond and while the vast majority of what I’ve eaten for ~ 30+ years has been vegan, I’m not one to turn down elk, venison, eggs, even beef obtained locally from a neighbor on the rare occasions I get so lucky. I personally find it a better to use of my time to ride the farm animals (horses) rather then eat them, but certainly understand the import in having them in the nutrient cycle.
So lets go through your list one at a time
B12 sources for a Vegan
- If you have a “proper” functioning small intestine you may harbor B12 producing bacteria and thus indirectly produce your own. This likely requires that your mother had them and passed them on to you, they didn’t get eliminated by the antibiotics including glyphosate you’ve ingested over your life time and that you consistently eat far more fiber to keep them fed than the modern human typically does. I don’t count on this though would be interesting to know if they are there.
Poop is another great source of these bacteria and rather than eating it directly I preferred to feed it to plants and then eat them.
“Since plant roots were recently shown to be able to absorb B1 and B12, it was thus suspected that organic fertilizers (such as manure of diverse sources or sewage sludges which often contain relatively high concentrations of several vitamins) introduce additional vitamins into the soil which in turn leads to increased vitamins in the plants. This possibility was studied by measuring the B12 content in the seeds of soybean and barley and in the leaves of spinach plants grown in soils amended with pure B12 or cow dung (which is naturally rich in B12). The addition of pure B12 or cow dung did not alter the B12content in the soybean seeds but significantly increased that in the barley kernels and in the spinach leaves.” Much more can be found in the sources for this article (https://medium.com/four-pursuits-ventures/rich-plant-sources-of-b12-busting-the-myths-380a9ac53b28)
Creatine: Well it turns out most people can synthesize sufficient creatine and supplements don’t show any benefit for the average person. Of course there are people with differing abilities in their pathways and demands so your results may vary. Here is a source (https://veganhealth.org/creatine/) again you can follow its sources for more info.
Carnosine: “Human liver and kidney make carnitine from lysine and methionine, two amino acids that you derive from protein intake. Other nutrients are required, including iron, and vitamins C, B-3 and B-6, according to Oregon State University. If you have normal liver and kidney functions and balanced nutrition, you most likely will not develop carnitine deficiency.” Source (https://www.livestrong.com/article/420041-do-vegans-need-carnitine/). Again results may very based on your genetic make up and environment like alcohol consumption.
D3: Living in the Pacific Northwest, if we hadn’t destroyed the salmon runs I would certainly put on 20 lbs of fat in fall from gorging on salmon then as I fasted over the winter and lost all that fat, the D3 from the salmon that was stored in that fat would be released, but as the only way to restore those salmon runs is to repair the rivers and stop overfishing, I resort to taking D3 that is likely sourced from the lanolin that is a byproduct of wool production and not strictly vegan, though I suspect you could produce your own D3 from any fury animal by washing the oils out of their fur and putting it in the sun to convert to D3, though purify the resulting concoction sufficiently to consume might be a challenge. For most of the months out of the year I’m out working in the garden so sunshine is my source.
DHA: Now my friends would argue that by the way my brain is functioning I’m obviously not getting enough DHA and I won’t argue with that. It seems that we can synthesize DHA in sufficient amounts though I know that is hotly debated. Here is one possible indication that it is possible: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0163782715000223
Heme iron: Ok you won’t like this result so sorry ahead of time; (https://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-safety-of-heme-vs-non-heme-iron/)
Finally if that last one didn’t stop you and you are still with me Taurine: Well Taurine is a major component of bile, which is stimulated by fat intake, though if your aren’t consuming lots of glyphosate your body, while it prefers Taurine, can use glycine as a substitute here. Unless you are a Cat your body can synthesize the Taurine it needs from methionine & cysteine assuming sufficient B6. Now there is a lot of hype around Taurine as an energy enhancer and its ability to be degraded by the intestinal bacterium Bilophila wadsworthia to produce hydrogen sulfide, which in low levels is beneficial, but in high levels can lead to a leaky gut so I would be cautious about supplementing with high levels especially if on a high fat diet.
“Increased hydrogen sulfide production is thought to be associated with higher permeability of the intestinal barrier, higher susceptibility to infections and colon cancer. Moreover, Bilophila wadsworthia can act as a pathogen, for example in appendicitis. The results were published in the current issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.”
There are many more references to add, but it has gotten too late so this will have to do for now.
Diet and health is a very complex topic. I think we need to consider the following:
- Genetic diversity between individuals and, especially between populations have a big impact on the value we derive from different foods. Populations can and have adapted partly or mostly to new diets over perhaps 10-100 generations.
- Old methods of growing/raising plants/animals and older varieties/breeds are much more nutritious. Modern foods are grown for productivity (including strong response to fertilizers and pesticides), uniformity and ability to be shipped far or stored long. The result is nutrient depleted and toxin contaminated foods. The old methods and varieties result in nutrient dense, much less toxic food. For this reason, most population based food research needs to be taken with a grain of salt as everyone in both groups of the study was eating modern, mass-produced food.
- Processing and preparation is also important: Our ancestors developed methods to improve storage, increase digestibility, and increase nutrient density of many foods. Fermentation and soaking were key methods. This is especially important for grains, legumes and seeds and some vegetables and even meats. Modern processing and preparation methods, especially for grains, legumes and seeds do not remove the enzyme inhibitors and other components that help seeds stay dormant until conditions are favorable. This greatly reduces digestibility and can be a source of long-term stress on the digestive tract.
- Seasonality matters. Local, fresh or properly stored and processed foods are most available and nutritious at certain times of year.
- Hard and fast rules are probably detrimental (i.e. strict vegan, no carbs ever, etc.). If you've ever examined a deer carcass in the winter woods, you will literally find that most mammals and many birds are nibbling on it. This includes the carnivores you'd expect, rodents, and rabbits. The possible exception is the deer themselves and other ruminants. But off course, they carry around a specialized microscopic animal farming operation in their guts. The bats and shrews also, but their order isn't called insectivora or nothing. That's pretty much all they eat.
- Most of us have a history of eating a less-than-ideal diet. This likely caused some damage to our digestive tract. Improving our diet can lead to partial and perhaps nearly complete repair. The diet for repair might be different from the optimal diet if we are already healthy.
- Dietary needs vary over our lifetime depending on our health, activity, level of stress, etc.
I stopped reading after:
“vast majority of what I’ve eaten for ~ 30+ years has been vegan, I’m not one to turn down elk, venison, eggs, even beef obtained locally from a neighbor on the rare occasions”
You might have to check your definition of Vegan.
“If you have a “proper” functioning small intestine you may harbor B12 producing bacteria and thus indirectly produce your own”
I don’t even know how to respond to this…I guess I didn’t reach the evolutionary level of having the digestive system of a cow. (also there is almost no bacteria in the small intestine of a healthy human)
I rest my case…wish you all the best, I’m out of this thread.
Vitamin B12 is found in bacteria that attach themselves to the roots of plants. So the ingestion of root crops will typically involve the ingestion of some soil particles as well with those particles containing vitamin B12. If you look closely at carrots, beets, turnips, etc., they generally have micro-crevices and sometimes macro-cracks where some soil can remain after a quick washing. You’ll also note that many dark green leafy crops also need to be washed many times to get all the soil out so a superficial washing will leave some soil particles and hence, some vitamin B12.
Hydrochloric acid in the stomach is required to convert pepsinogen to pepsin which cleaves B12 from the protein it is commonly bound to. This is one reason (but not the only reason) why the elderly have a more difficult time absorbing vitamin B12. Stomach acidity typically declines with age. Plus, the liver stores quite a bit of vitamin B12 for quite a long period of time so a steady dietary intake is not necessarily required, even though it’s a water soluble vitamin.
https://www.ebmconsult.com/articles/vitamin-b12-absorption-mechanism-intestine-intrinsic-factor
In addition, certain algae such as chlorella, can be used as a plant based dietary source of B12.
Personally, I “cheat” in two areas because of my cancer. I ingest a teaspoon of cod liver oil for DHA and EPA (because too much ALA can cause problems with prostate cancer and the conversion process is less efficient at my age) and I ingest a couple of dessicated liver tablets for B12 (because, other than octopus, it’s one of the most concentrated sources of natural vitamin B12). Both of these supplements are from very pristine sources. It’s also interesting to note that, in a study of several thousand Boston school children done decades ago, NONE of them were getting optimal levels of DHA in their diet, despite consuming animal products. i used to cite this paper when I taught but do not have immediate access to it to give you the exact reference, so my apologies. It was the reason, however, why I always gave my children cod liver oil and perhaps one reason why both excelled in school and have high IQs.
I don't disagree that there is some pathway of getting B12 from bacteria in plants but is it bioavailable(absorption) Do I have the necessary chemical factory of enzymes to do so, Do you? Do I know if I have the optimal level of B12 for my body, Do you?
Of course our bodies can convert and make some stuff but there is price for that. Doing so is very expensive process for the body and there is always a limit of how much can be made/converted. And then there is the source, I really doubt we going to find any B12 bacteria in carrots from Shoprite :-)
I have absolutely nothing against any diet (personal choice) but user:XZBD2 claims to be vegan who eats elk,eggs,beef,salmon every now and then. (nothing wrong with that)
I've seen first hand people close to me destroying their health and lives going vegan for the wrong reasons and reading misleading information on the web. There is a difference between vegan and mostly plant based diet. Can vegan diet be healthy, sure if one knows what they're doing. Is it good for everyone, not sure.
You're not cheating taking cod liver oil and giving it to your children, you're doing the right thing! By the way best source of DHA&EPA (bioavailable) is in caviar if you can afford it (I can't) :-)
I do understand the moral dilemma of eating animal products and why some folks see cruelty in this but one look at the food chain on this planet one has to realize that there is no live without dead.
All of the above is personal opinion.......