"it's important to own physical Gold, in your name, outside of your country, outside of the banking system. It's that last part where I think BitGold fails"
Jim,
This is where BItgold is a profoundly different platform. It is indeed outside of the banking system but within the regulatory system. The customers gold is held in their name in a Brinks vault of their choice, 6 of which are outside the US. They have done their homework.
I could give you a long argument of why this idea is backwards - but this talk I've linked explains my thoughts wonderfully. You still think in paradigms and the world of 100 years ago. It no longer makes sense in a modern world. How often do you do face-to-face transactions anymore?
Counterfeiting? Assays? Guarantees? How do you shove those things into the internet to pay for your airline tickets etc?
This may be the beginning point where you start to get a vision of the future… not last century. We didn't invent an automobile engine, then strap it on a horse. Blockchains are an idea whose time has come.
@mvmorejohn
while i very much like the concept of bitgold, as well as goldmoney, i don't believe it's accurate to say that bitgold is decentralized.
bitcoin is decentralized - there is no specific server to target; if the bitcoin.com domain were to be stolen by federal government agents, no big deal, bitcoin would be just fine.
can you say the same for bitgold.com? and what about the brinks vaults where bitgold is kept? these are critical points of failure that the federal government, or other persons with malicious intent, can target.
so, i just don't think it's correct to say that bitgold is decentralized.
This will explain the platform much better than i can here.
https://www.bitgold.com/safety-security
"Bitgold is a closed loop system and decentralized from economic analysis".
As co-founder Roy Sebag says.
I wouldn't use "Bit" in the name to ride on BitCoin because: 1) is scares some persons away; 2) it has nothing to do with Block Chain technology which is at heart of BitCoin. "gCard"?
What intrigues me is BlockChain as this could be applied to many kinds of money that compete.
With my apologies if I've missed it, but how are aurum notes delivered to a buyer?
drbost -
From Valaurum's website:
Methods of Shipment1) USPS Priority Mail
Estimated shipping time for Priority mail for U.S. orders is 2-3 business days. For international orders, 6-10 business days.
This map can be used to find a closer estimate for Priority Mail shipping. Valaurum ships from Zip Code 97232.
2) USPS Priority Mail Express
Estimated express shipping time is 1 business day for U.S. orders. For international orders, 3-5 business days. All orders over $1000 use USPS Express Mail.
Shipping Insurance
Insurance is offered as an option on all orders.
Adam –
Thanks so much for the info (see post #27, above).
I do see the potential value of having very small denominations of gold like this. The trade-off as you acknowledge is the higher premium (kind of like those little bottles of liquor I bought for barter purposes if need be… you have to decide if the premium is worth it). And I do see that you are only recommending a small % of one's PMs in these smaller increments, which makes sense.
Given that, though, I do have a question on the the use of Valaurum. Do you have any concerns that if we hit a SHTF scenario where you'd want to use Valaurum as money, that you might have difficulty doing so because they are not a well-known/recognized form of gold (at least they are new to me)? Or would you be counting on cashing them out with a PM dealer who'd be more likely to recognize their value?
I have to answer you that yes, many of us here DO expect we might end up going "backwards" to less-complex, more local, less specialized and much more basic ways of life. This is not because of some sudden change in the nature of humanity's technological tendencies. It is because of the 3E issues that underlie and support our civilizations, including our technological path. So far, technology requires loads of energy to function. Every example Andreas Antonopolous used to explain his infrastructure inversion idea happened on the way up the exponential increase in available energy that's been the norm for the past 100 years. How that can continue unless we find a comparable energy source yesterday?
Mr. Antonopolous is smart and entertaining, but he makes absolutely no reference to the energy context of his thesis. He also doesn't seem to notice that in his lifetime we have moved from the age of unlimited expansion into the age of limits - real, planetary limits on multiple fronts. People, countries, biospheres and resources are going down. So how can we expect the procession from older, simpler, less energy-intense technologies to new, complex, energy-gobbling versions to continue to unfold in the same way? Horses to automobiles happened at the very beginning of the exploitation of the most energy-intense substance ever discovered - fossil fuels. Now we are at the end of cheap, easy oil, with nothing to replace it, unless Arthur is correct.
I don't know much about blockchains, but I'm guessing they will work well about as long as we have loads of energy to keep the computers running non-stop. War? EMP problems? An effective infiltration of our power system's computers? How about a good banking crisis? Would all the ones and zeros survive? I'm going to risk my hard-won and insufficient wealth on something that fragile? Why? I'd rather have physical in some form, a few fruit trees in the 'hood, a lot of good soil, seed saving know-how and neighbors with skills. Back in time sounds like one of the better outcomes.
Cheers
Susan
Adam,
Since you are so persistent in promoting Aurum products, which in my opinion carry disproportionately high premiums, I have to ask you directly for full disclosure:
Also up front, I would like to ask Chris for expressing his opinion about Aurum product(s), in particular is it PeakProsperity’s opinion that maybe up to 1% of PM holdings of an individual would be worth of holding in Aurums?
I apologize to the readers for the uninspiring explanation I will provide below why I think the Aurum product is NOT the right gold bullion/”film” to buy for an average PM holder. I thought that in my previous note, the example given would be convincing enough to close this discussion. Apparently Adam in NOT convinced, and he insists on apples-to-apples comparison, no matter whether it makes sense or not.
Let me start with two tables to make the unit conversions and gold spot pricing in troy ounce and grams clear to the reader
So I found two equivalent weight gold bullion products overlapping with Aurum units. This is comparison of Aurum products (0.25 gr and 0.1 gr ) vs. gold bars found on-line (LBMA –approved bullion). These are found on E-bay w/o shipping cost. So Adam, just to satisfy your repeating challenge about finding the cheaper equivalent products , here you have in Table 2 bullion @ 0.25 gr and 0.1 gr being cheaper by 15%-20% than Aurum official prices. References included. And I was not searching too extensively.
Seems like this is your major promotional point for Aurum, and seems to me it does not exist, if one compares face value of Aurum vs. equivalent bullion. (Also keep in mind that Ebay prices of bullion carry Ebay 6-9% and PayPal premiums). To be fair to Valaurum, their website does not promote Aurum for buying groceries or equivalents (as Adam) but quote: “…The result (i.e. Aurum) is a new, beautiful way to use gold for artistic, commemorative and branding purposes”. Aha, this I get. They promote it for these specific reasons, and therefore the premium is secondary. But Adam promotes it for buying "groceries", and here we are dealing with a money (Aurum currency) which can only buy the most ½ of groceries, based on Aurum face value (premium exceeds 100%) as compared to low(er) premium gold/silver/copper products, like bars w/ higher denomination (or even gold grains). So, to summarize my point (again, I stress one man’s opinion), Aurum product (currency) carries very poor value for low denomination “change”/ money in crisis. It is not designed, according to the manufacturers, to satisfy this role. I fully agree with them. It is also important for the readers to understand clearly the conversion of 1 troy once unit (and its widely followed daily spot price) to Aurum units (1/20 gr, 1/10 gr, 1/5 gr) . This is, based on my observation, poorly understood in US. Therefore, for an average reader / potential buyer there isn’t a clear explanation what are the premium involved. Valaurum website is not helpful here neither, because the only gold spot price being quoted there is in (you guessed it) Troy Ounces. Why then their products are not denominated in Troy Ounces of Gold (say 1/100, 1/200, 1/500 oz t) but in fractions of gram? I leave the answer to the reader. Please remember though, that the major point behind selling complex products like life insurance, etc. is making the facts complex and non-transparent, so the buyer cannot really compare apples-to-apples. But isn’t Adam insisting on apples-to-apples? Why does he not ask the founder of Aurum products to explain the details of Aurum valuation? Isn’t it important? Why is his interview, frankly, shallow? This, basically, prompted me to respond to the original Adam’s post to express my opinion about poor value behind Aurum products. Hope that we can close this silly discussion. And thanks to pinecarr who asks Adam for a bit higher level , non-personal exchange of opinions. Regards, Peter
Adam,
Since you are so persistent in promoting Aurum products, which in my opinion carry disproportionately high premiums, I have to ask you directly for full disclosure:
Also up front, I would like to ask Chris for expressing his opinion about Aurum product(s), in particular is it PeakProsperity’s opinion that maybe up to 1% of PM holdings of an individual would be worth of holding in Aurums?
I apologize to the readers for the uninspiring explanation I will provide below why I think the Aurum product is NOT the right gold bullion/”film” to buy for an average PM holder. I thought that in my previous note, the example given would be convincing enough to close this discussion. Apparently Adam in NOT convinced, and he insists on apples-to-apples comparison, no matter whether it makes sense or not.
Let me start with two tables to make the unit conversions and gold spot pricing in troy ounce and grams clear to the reader
So I found two equivalent weight gold bullion products overlapping with Aurum units. This is comparison of Aurum products (0.25 gr and 0.1 gr ) vs. gold bars found on-line (LBMA –approved bullion). These are found on E-bay w/o shipping cost. So Adam, just to satisfy your repeating challenge about finding the cheaper equivalent products , here you have in Table 2 bullion @ 0.25 gr and 0.1 gr being cheaper by 15%-20% than Aurum official prices. References included. And I was not searching too extensively.
Seems like this is your major promotional point for Aurum, and seems to me it does not exist, if one compares face value of Aurum vs. equivalent bullion. (Also keep in mind that Ebay prices of bullion carry Ebay 6-9% and PayPal premiums). To be fair to Valaurum, their website does not promote Aurum for buying groceries or equivalents (as Adam) but quote: “…The result (i.e. Aurum) is a new, beautiful way to use gold for artistic, commemorative and branding purposes”. Aha, this I get. They promote it for these specific reasons, and therefore the premium is secondary. But Adam promotes it for buying "groceries", and here we are dealing with a money (Aurum currency) which can only buy the most ½ of groceries, based on Aurum face value (premium exceeds 100%) as compared to low(er) premium gold/silver/copper products, like bars w/ higher denomination (or even gold grains). So, to summarize my point (again, I stress one man’s opinion), Aurum product (currency) carries very poor value for low denomination “change”/ money in crisis. It is not designed, according to the manufacturers, to satisfy this role. I fully agree with them. It is also important for the readers to understand clearly the conversion of 1 troy once unit (and its widely followed daily spot price) to Aurum units (1/20 gr, 1/10 gr, 1/5 gr) . This is, based on my observation, poorly understood in US. Therefore, for an average reader / potential buyer there isn’t a clear explanation what are the premium involved. Valaurum website is not helpful here neither, because the only gold spot price being quoted there is in (you guessed it) Troy Ounces. Why then their products are not denominated in Troy Ounces of Gold (say 1/100, 1/200, 1/500 oz t) but in fractions of gram? I leave the answer to the reader. Please remember though, that the major point behind selling complex products like life insurance, etc. is making the facts complex and non-transparent, so the buyer cannot really compare apples-to-apples. But isn’t Adam insisting on apples-to-apples? Why does he not ask the founder of Aurum products to explain the details of Aurum valuation? Isn’t it important? Why is his interview, frankly, shallow? This, basically, prompted me to respond to the original Adam’s post to express my opinion about poor value behind Aurum products. Hope that we can close this silly discussion. And thanks to pinecarr who asks Adam for a bit higher level , non-personal exchange of opinions. Regards, Peter
People have been using silver coins for small transactions for thousands of years, why change (no pun intended) now. I can buy Constitutional "junk"silver coins over the counter at my local coin shop for $2 per ounce of silver content over spot. If I can buy genuine, American minted, legal tender, unlikely to be counterfeited, silver coins at a 12.5% premium, why would I buy something that looks like a candy wrapper with a 100% premium?
Also, I don't find it difficult to imagine a situation were there might be a premium on paper bank notes due to capitol controls in the future. If such is the case I imagine that there will probably also be a premium on the more widely recognized forms of silver coins as well.
All that said, all this might be moot as the number of precious metal stackers is so small that PMs might only be a very small part of a future economy. I carry a silver Eagle in my pocket and have shown it to people when the subject of what the future might bring comes up. I have yet to have anyone recognize it for what it is.
2 cents from a doomer in the pucker brush,
John G.
I have to say that I think the Aurums are really cool and I have purchased some of the 2014 and 2015 PP versions. However, I do share the concerns many others are expressing regarding the premium, especially with silver being a much cheaper alternative for smaller denominations. Accordingly, I was very interested when Adam Trexler said that the Valaurum had been able to reduce the premium by 30% last year and 50% the year before that. However, this did not jibe with the amount I have been paying for my PP Aurums, so I went back in my email and looked at my invoices. I found that I paid $8 for 1/10th gram Aurums in both 2014 and 2015 (I had to purchase 10 each time to get that price). By my calculations, this translates into $2488/troy oz both years, which is a premium of 101% in 2014 and 107% and 2015. If I buy some of the 2016 Aurum today, I would pay $2488 per troy oz (exactly the same amount to the cent as 2014 and 2015) resulting in a premium of 102%. Am I missing something here? If not, were is our 65% savings in premium (50% and 30% compounded) that we should have seen since 2014?
This is the story of the bell hop from Germany in the 1920 with one gold coin he bought the whole hotel. Who told him to keep the coin till just the right time? This is an inflation hedge till the right time.
This is the story of the bell hop from Germany in the 1920 with one gold coin he bought the whole hotel. Who told him to keep the coin till just the right time? This is an inflation hedge till the right time.
Received shipment. Very impressive tech. This should be the USA's money!
Is there a verified reference for this story? I doubt the story.
I ordered a few, like 3, of these the first day they were available and they came today, in Priority Mail as Valaurum said. The company sent an email as soon as it was sent and it came 48 hrs later. They are impressive looking!!
Just wanted to report on how the order went and the company handled it all. I may buy more later as budget permits.
Shamba