Bill Ryerson -- Dealing With The Elephant In The Room: Overpopulation

Worldwide, three new humans are born every second. Every day, 225,000 more mouths are added to the global dinner table.

That adds up to 80 million new people per year -- the population equivalent of the five largest cities in the world. That's like a new Shanghai, a new Beijing, a new New Delhi, a new Lagos, and a new Tianjin being added every year.

This growth trajectory is simply not sustainable from a planetary resources standpoint. As the global population continues to grow at an exponential rate, its demand is causing key resources like fresh water aquifers, rainforest canopies, fishing stocks, fertile topsoils, etc to similarly deplete exponentially. These oppositional exponentials, mathematically, can only result in an evitable planetary 'overshoot' -- which many argue we are already well into.

What can be done? Bill Ryerson, president of the Population Institute, joins us to discuss the work of the Population Media Center in addressing the interconnected issues of the full rights of women and girls, population, and the environment. It's mission is to empower people to live healthier and more prosperous lives and to stabilize global population at a level at which people can live sustainably with the world’s renewable resources.

Our earlier podcast with Bill focused on the existential dangers of overpopulation (you can listen to it here). This week's podcast focuses on the strategies that show the most promise for slowing, or perhaps even reversing, world population growth, should we be willing to pursue them:

All of those new people on the planet have needs for food, shelter, housing, and clothing. When you look at their environmental impact, the number of new people is a major driver of lost biodiversity, and it's a significant factor in climate change.

Now, I've heard a lot of environmentalists say 'Well, population doesn't matter' because the real culprits in climate change are the high consumers of the West who each have a huge carbon footprint. But in fact, if you take the median projection of population growth by the UN Population Division from now to 2050 -- an additional 2.5 billion people -- and multiply that times the admittedly low per capita carbon emissions of a citizen in the developing world, it's the climate equivalent of adding two United States to the planet.

Put another way, projections show that whether we have a major effort to promote family planning and small family norms and delayed marriage and stopping child marriage, or a minor effort, that will result in a difference, from a climate standpoint, of 2 United States by 2050.

I would venture that the leaders of virtually every environmental group, if spoken to privately, would clearly recognize that population growth is a major threat to the environmental goals of their organization. And yet, publicly, they’ve made a decision not to touch that issue for fear that they'll get themselves in trouble. And part of the reason for that I think has to do with their approach to environmental issues.

Many environmentalists think in terms of regulation as the solution to everything: if we have a climate problem, let's have a carbon tax; if we have a pollution problem, let's have pollution laws and regulations. But if we have a population problem -- oops, what does that mean? Does that mean we have to tell people how many children to have? Therefore they conclude they better stay away from population because telling people how many children to have would obviously get them into trouble.

But what's very clear is that coercion, in addition to being a human rights violation, is not effective. Persuasion and modeling of behavior that helps people understand the benefits to them, of educating their daughters rather than selling them into marriage, of allowing women to have say in how many children to have and allowing women equal rights in the workplace outside the home and various other goals including information and access to family planning services – that all this, within a human rights context, has been the reason that countries like Thailand have moved from rapid population growth to below replacement-level fertility. Environmentalists just haven't come to grips with the fact, or realized that, indeed, the population problem can be much better resolved through human rights-based approaches.

Click the play button below to listen to Chris' interview with Bill Ryerson (41m:14s).

This is a companion discussion topic for the original entry at https://peakprosperity.com/bill-ryerson-dealing-with-the-elephant-in-the-room-overpopulation/

Brian O’Neill at University of Colorado, Boulder, did an analysis of what would happen to climate if we made a major effort in promoting family planning and small family norms. And he concluded it would yield between 16 and 29 percent of what is necessary to avoid catastrophic climate change.
Since “climate change” (let alone “catastrophic” climate change!) has no meaningful definition (why the term is always used methinks) it makes the whole statement merely emotive.
But even if it was somehow defined with numbers…we’ve shown zero scientific ability to predict climate anything (which makes it more akin to witchcraft than science). So I call BS on said study. But hey we gotta do something with all that global warming money…
Also shook my head here: …my parents have ten children…and my father beats my mother…
Why exactly does having 10 children have to do with beating one’s wife? Freudian slip, anyone?
But on the subject of overpopulation: it’s sort of amusing, from a scientic (say Darwinian) perspective. It’s just math: cultures who deliberately restrict breeding for ideological reasons will…vanish from the genetic pool. Those who feel otherwise will become more numerous. There is simply no way around this without force. Which is why intelligent people are so uncomfortable about the subject.
Also, war tends to thin out human populations if they get too high, long before resource shortage becomes an issue.

But on the subject of overpopulation: it's sort of amusing, from a scientic (say Darwinian) perspective. It's just math: cultures who deliberately restrict breeding for ideological reasons will...vanish from the genetic pool. Those who feel otherwise will become more numerous. There is simply no way around this without force. Which is why intelligent people are so uncomfortable about the subject.
We can transcend our evolutionary urges. We can as "intelligent people" look around, observe, and rationally think that there are just too damn many people on the planet. At an advanced -- well, maybe even a not so advanced -- intellectual level, we can "comfortably" admit that the life of the planet as a whole is quite a bit more important/meaningful than getting our spawn out there.

Intellectually I understand resource depletion and overpopulation.
On the other hand I have flown over Alaska in small planes and helicopters and driven the Trans Alaska Highway. Day after day of driving and and encountering extremely few people. It’s hard to see thousands and thousands of acres of undeveloped land and think about the horrors of over-population. And no don’t tell me that food can’t be grown in Alaska or Canada because I have first hand experience to the contrary.
Just perhaps if life’s purpose were not profit and money and control the concept and word over-population wouldn’t exist. Perhaps the simple explanation is that the world is just over-populated with too many greedy, evil people.
AKGrannyWGrit

MKI wrote:
Brian O'Neill at University of Colorado, Boulder, did an analysis of what would happen to climate if we made a major effort in promoting family planning and small family norms. And he concluded it would yield between 16 and 29 percent of what is necessary to avoid catastrophic climate change. Since "climate change" (let alone "catastrophic" climate change!) has no meaningful definition (why the term is always used methinks) it makes the whole statement merely emotive. But even if it was somehow defined with numbers...we've shown zero scientific ability to predict climate anything (which makes it more akin to witchcraft than science). So I call BS on said study. But hey we gotta do something with all that global warming money... Also shook my head here: ...my parents have ten children...and my father beats my mother... Why exactly does having 10 children have to do with beating one's wife? Freudian slip, anyone? But on the subject of overpopulation: it's sort of amusing, from a scientic (say Darwinian) perspective. It's just math: cultures who deliberately restrict breeding for ideological reasons will...vanish from the genetic pool. Those who feel otherwise will become more numerous. There is simply no way around this without force. Which is why intelligent people are so uncomfortable about the subject. Also, war tends to thin out human populations if they get too high, long before resource shortage becomes an issue.
Yeah well over 200 million got killed in state sponsored violence in the 20th century. If we are going to depend on war to "thin" the population we are going to have to step up our game

When my son was about two years old, people started asking my husband and i when we planned our second. I already felt like our family was complete, for environmental reasons among others. I almost caved to the peer pressure to give him a sibling.
But I happened across the Bill McKibben book Maybe One, and I stuck to my guns to have only one child. I am one of 6 kids and could easily see my parents where overwhelmed trying to provide for us all: emotionally and finacially. I opted for something completely different. Waited till I was 39 when I felt ready and able to really, truly experince the joys (and irritations!) of all the developmental stages and gave my son a good home life. Adn now that he is 19, I am not overly worried about paying for college without jeopardizing our financial future.
My experience looking at my peers (who mostly came from large Catholic families) is that they opted to have small families; 1-3 kids at most. The role model narrative of 6-10 kids was not attractive to us at all. Although there is a certain camaraderie/tribal spirit that can arise in large famiies, it can also be internecine warfare.
The midwest of the 1960s and 1970s seemed able to absorb huge families, but looking at the suburban sprawl fueled by those offspring now (witness: metro chicago, kansas city, Omaha, Minneapolis, etc. ) one can see the sobering consequences of all that fertility and “progress” from cheap oil.

Yet, only ‘intelligent’ people will see the need to restrict their breeding. Thus, leaving the world to be inherited by those who don’t realize the peril or care so much about it. By intelligent people chosing to breed at below replacement rate, we are also chosing to leave the world to those who will have no care for it.
We are stuck.
There is an ideology out there determined to dominate the world through demographic warfare, migrating to open nations and outbreeding their native peoples in the name of thier deity. How can ‘intelligent’ people passively sit back and allow that to happen, yet think we’re leaving the world a better place?
Are we naive enough to think that open borders and assimilation will somehow cure these invaders of their stated goals? That hasn’t worked so far. We are running a dangerous experiment.
I agree that violating people’s human rights and telling them how many children they can have is not the way. But I also agree that we should not support their large families with our tax dollars or international aid. If they want large families, let them support them on their own, in their own nations, without our aid. And do not keep our borders open for them to come here and invade.
As for me and mine, we also believe a large family is good, but we support ourselves and do not rely on the surplus of others. This is because I do not want the world’s future to be handed by default to those who will turn it into the 3rd world hellhole we see the immigrants fleeing from. If we believe we are good, intelligent people, we should have enough children to hold our ground and maintain civil society…

I was watching a segment on Bloomberg TV and it was discussing how China is easing it’s childbirth policy to encourge families to have more than one child and the panel said it’s not just a China issue but a Japan, USA and population issue around the world. The panel said that in order to “fulfill” pension obligations for older individuals you need a younger generation to work and provide to ensure those pension obligations are met.
So again, and I believe i’ve heard this from Chris but it’s our money system that requires exponential growth for everything because of future promises/debt that have been made. So to hell with the Planet, lets just keep adding more younger workers or as I like to call them, “new recruits” to an already populated planet where millions are starving and water security is going to be a problem for future generations.

Rodster, you’ve got a good point about water security. It’s always seemed unwise to me that so much population growth has happened in areas where there isn’t enough water. Water being the most basic requirement, I don’t know why people would settle in areas with not enough of it. We’ve artificially supported areas which aren’t fit for habitation and I think that needs to stop. It would be a good start for building permits to require enough water infrastructure to be in place before any more development happens.
I vacationed in central Texas a few months ago. So many want to live there, but I don’t know where they will find the water for more McMansionville. If we can’t even properly manage expansion in the United States, it’s surely a nightmare in under-developed nations.

Rodster wrote:
I was watching a segment on Bloomberg TV and it was discussing how China is easing it's childbirth policy to encourge families to have more than one child and the panel said it's not just a China issue but a Japan, USA and population issue around the world. The panel said that in order to "fulfill" pension obligations for older individuals you need a younger generation to work and provide to ensure those pension obligations are met. So again, and I believe i've heard this from Chris but it's our money system that requires exponential growth for everything because of future promises/debt that have been made. So to hell with the Planet, lets just keep adding more younger workers or as I like to call them, "new recruits" to an already populated planet where millions are starving and water security is going to be a problem for future generations.
I never bought into that justification for increasing the amount of young people, supposedly needed to "support" all the old people wanting to retire, so we're told. The pervasive influx of robots into the economy over the last few decades has done a great job of that, and more. Robots now do the jobs of young people. The real issue is one that governments won't admit; that governments can't directly tax robots and the productivity improvements they bring. But they can tax working people. The productivity improvements brought on by automation instead go to improving the profits of the big multinational corporations that best utilize automation to cut costs (i.e. jobs) and increase profit. What governments don't want to admit is that they don't fairly tax those big corporations, so the wealth drain from the middle class is going unchecked. They'd rather tell us that we need more working young people to support granny, because that creates "new" wealth through economic growth that will then support old people via taxes.

Maximum population size is determined by the resource base. Without fossil energy, the generally agreed metric is that one hectare of arable land can only support a family of 4 at a subsistent level.
Hence you can roughly work out the long term carrying capacity of the World. One such calculation puts it as low as 600 Million.
I urge readers to do their own calculations, the data is out there.
Once you have done that, the next question is, how long will it take to burn through all our fossil fuel?
By my reckoning, we will be pretty well through it all by the end of this Century.
Summary: 9 Billion to less than 1 Billion in 80 years.

crying laugh wink

While I would agree, on aggregate, overpopulation should be in the discussion of how to fix the mess our species has and is creating on this finite planet, another large issue that many (most?) in ‘advanced’ economies need to be discussing is the insane overconsumption by the minority of us.
Looking in the mirror at how much our complex societies waste with our many (especially technological but some sociocultural) ‘conveniences’ and ‘habits’, there is a significant drain on our resource base by a fraction of our population.
As with any complex system, there are many variables at play…

AKGrannyWGrit wrote:
Intellectually I understand resource depletion and overpopulation. On the other hand I have flown over Alaska in small planes and helicopters and driven the Trans Alaska Highway. Day after day of driving and and encountering extremely few people. It’s hard to see thousands and thousands of acres of undeveloped land and think about the horrors of over-population. And no don’t tell me that food can’t be grown in Alaska or Canada because I have first hand experience to the contrary. Just perhaps if life’s purpose were not profit and money and control the concept and word over-population wouldn’t exist. Perhaps the simple explanation is that the world is just over-populated with too many greedy, evil people. AKGrannyWGrit
Alaska will save us? My sister's priest once told her that all the people on the plant would fit comfortably in Texas. Of course, since he was her priest, she believed him, without bothering with anything as unimportant as math. There are excellent explanations of exponential population growth available to you free, that will help you understand the problem with your statement above and how catastrophic the missunderstanding is. Thomas Robert Malthus wrote "An Essay on the Principle of Population" in 1776. You can find pdf files and youtube videos of Dr. Albert Bartlett's speeches on the subject widly available on the internet. Heck, Chris has an explanation of exponential population growth in the "Crash Course." What I don't get, for the life of me, is how people can see what is going on all around them, every single day, and not realize we have a massive problem, both real and in the narrative we are innundated with. I've got more pictures.

One of the things you didn’t cover is that we subsidize children, at least in the United States, with lower taxes, lower per person health insurance costs and welfare. Parents don’t pay for educating their children, society does.
Welfare is the very “Christian” idea that Robert Malthus, an Anglican Priest, exposed as a fallacy, in his essay. We not only increase population, but we don’t reduce the number of hungry people and we make poor people poorer in the process. Plus, it can’t go on indefinitely.

Perhaps we need to look at humans as a potentially great source of nutrients for a world yet to come.

Hubris - excessive pride toward or defiance of the gods, leading to nemesis.
In the meantime, I've racheted my expectations and consumption back to a level that is almost sustainable. The garden is really looking nice, so far, this year.

wont miss us a bit.
I’m siding with Les and George. Nature has a 12 biliion year head start on efficiency, we’re just a mere bit.
Off to hitch my solar powered 'orses to a hay mower, gonna lay down about 4acres this afternoon.

Glad to hear two people talk about this without the emotional arguments that usually arise. Think I read about one of his radio shows in Redirect by Timothy Wilson. Good social psychology book about story editing, or “narrative” editing.
Very impressive results Bill gets with the amount of people that edit their narrative by listening to an entertaining radio show.
Wonder if the numbers are similar in the U.S.'s entertainment industry, in “helping” us edit our narrative.

When I fly over the midwest I see nothing but endless farms. It didn’t take long to do all of that damage thanks to conventional (easy) fossil fuels. Is that AK’s future when the easy stuff is gone and the crunch kicks into hyperdrive? A while ago I heard of companys lining up to profit from this disaster by “efficiently” clear cutting those “endless” AK (and all other) forests for fuel.
I have a friend who lives off-grid on a remote 150 acre homestead site in national forest land in northwest MT near the Canadian border. A town of 3,000 is 35 miles away. I asked her a while back whether she was planning on growing a garden. She said that fertile top soil would have to be trucked in. After living up there for 20 years she finally sold her place and plans on moving back to WV to be near family and to grow a garden in real top soil.
Since fossil fuels are needed for fertilizer, truck fuel, etc etc, will more and more forests have to be cleared in order to continue to feed more and more people? And once the forests are gone and what’s left of the top soil is “dust bowled” away will we need to clear cut nonexistant forests to grow even more food and regenerate the forest soil so that we can cut the trees down again and again and again? Is there such a thing as negative soil fertility? That damn entropy (aka Seneca Cliff) will bite us and everything else on this planet in the ass pretty soon.

Alaska will save us?
Oh please I didn’t say that! But I did get a large chuckle out of the comment. As a matter of fact we have a colloquialism up here that goes like this “Alaska, where the strong stumble and the weak die”. We also used to say that Alaska - “where the odds are good but the goods are odd”, meaning there were a lot more men than women and it was a good place to find a husband. But not anymore, the population has equaled out. People are leaving in droves right now but as always it seems to be boom or bust up here. But I digress.
Anyway, it seems my point was completely missed so I will restate. We as a species could have extended good will and helped out our neighbors thus helping to educate, raise living standards and make the planet a truely habitual place for all. Unfortunately, as a species instead of extending a helping hand we have used the jack boot of oppression which has led to resource depletion and overpopulation. (See John Perkins book Confessions of an Economic Hit Man). Is it our nature or just what we have chosen to nurture?
Secondly, I have a number of elderly clients and those with multiple children seem to have a better experience in their later years as children share in their care. Generally speaking. So on an individual level for all incomes children can be an asset to ones aging.
The true elephant is what is being done to reduce overpopulation. I suspect that is a discussion that is going on at the highest levels. And that is what should scare us all. Will there be a covert or overt action taken. The highest resource users or the most over populated areas. Will we know or are things being done in secret? How’s that water taste? The food?
Perhaps some of those thousands of undeveloped acres might look attractive to some?
AKGrannyWGrit