I tell ya what: this site really, really doesn’t like it when someone takes time to compose in the Comment window. But I’ve learned to save a copy before hitting that ‘post’ button.
I think Parker Lewis has responded very cogently to every objection and concern I’ve read on this thread in a series of essays he’s penned over the last 13 months. They’re all collected in one place, which is convenient.
Having read them, I took some time to focus on what I think is the nugget of his perspective, and what is the essential conclusion he draws from his thinking, which - it having been disallowed here (for taking too long to compose, I think) - I’ve posted in the Forum, here: https://peakprosperity.com/forum-topic/for-a-guided-tour-of-the-btc-rabbit-hole/
That’s also where I linked the archive location of his 15 essays.
I just read an article in Science Daily that said usable energy is available at room temperatures from a new type of material. It’s low voltage and low powered, but essentially free energy. The belief is it will replace batteries in small devices. What will that do to the price/value of bitcoin if eventually it can be ‘mined’ for free?
I know that crypto proponents claim that the energy issue is either solved or won’t be an issue in the future. I still think it’s an area that merits discussion.
- Green / alternate energy
- Comparison to energy used in mining
d
Hello rleever. Your comment/question is not worth much without any supporting data or links for readers to follow up on. You are relatively new here. Opinions & speculation only get people so far here at PP - just so you know in case you are looking for discussion engagement.
Following the earth-shaking announcement by MicroStrategy almost 2 months ago, and the very recent announcement by Square just a few days ago, now - yesterday - NYC-based investment advisor and management firm Stone Ride ($13 billion under management) has publicly acknowledge that it holds 10,000 BTC - approximate value, $115 million.
Stone Ridge holds its BTC through subsidiary NYDIG. NYDIG’s CEO echoed the sentiments of Microstrategy’s Michael Saylor when he said:
The macro backdrop against the public health backdrop has caused a lot of people to rethink their portfolio composition. (source)Saylor has also said that it was the lock down and the Fed's follow-on multi-trillion dollar money printing that got him thinking about how to protect his company's retained earnings. Stone Ridge has apparently engaged in a similar exploration that has led to a shared conclusion. We are watching case, case, case now coming increasingly close enough to one another to form a nascent first cluster of corporate investors entering BTC with invested funds in the range of multi-millions of dollars. As Parker Lewis has said,
There are no circuit breakers in bitcoin and there are no bailouts. Each individual participant is maximally accountable and it is a market devoid of moral hazard. When the dust settles, what does not kill bitcoin only makes it stronger. In a literal sense. It is surviving and thriving in the wild, without any central coordination. It is not for the faint of heart, but it is the land of the free and the home of the brave. When it survives, there will still only be 21 million bitcoin, and its very survival will reinforce its place in the world. Increasingly, with each monetary stimulus injected into the legacy financial system, bitcoin’s core value function will become more apparent and more intuitive to more people. It will not just be by chance; it will be so because of the stark contrast bitcoin provides. Even with all its volatility, it is laying the foundation of a more stable monetary system.
I asked this earlier but didn’t get a reply.
recently a Science Daily reported on research from U o Ark about using graphene to produce what would be essentially free energy.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/10/201002091029.htm
My question is how would this affect Bitcoin Mining if the processes didn’t require using the standard energy grid but instead harnessed this process? Granted there would be a one time cost in acquiring the energy source but after that there should be zero cost.
Dear Peak Prosperity readers,
I encourage you to learn more about bitcoin, to ask more questions and really take the time to study it. I see the same surface level arguments being spouted by naysayers year after year. They all disintegrate over time. All that’s left is bitcoin and the absolute power of the free market forcing it’s will on the world. It cannot be stopped. It will continue to eat all the world’s wealth until it has changed our society forever and for the better. Of course there are always unknown unknowns, but that is not a reason to not invest in bitcoin. And even if you are not a believer, you must admit it is much riskier to NOT own any bitcoin than to own a little bit.
I saw this graphene story when it hit the news a few weeks ago. Here is the press release from the University, which contains a link to the underlying journal article;
https://news.uark.edu/articles/54830/physicists-build-circuit-that-generates-clean-limitless-power-from-graphene
I am skeptical, and I asked someone much smarter than I, a physicist at Sandia, what he thought of the paper. Here’s what he said,
“this seems to violate thermodynamics, so there must be some mistake in their measurement or analysis, or their description of their setup”.
In any event, these are tiny, tiny amounts of power we are talking about. The only application for this, were it to work, would be powering long lived (read no battery) remote IOT devices like sensors. Best regards, Jim
I think that the bitcoin aficionados here are confusing bitcoin with the crypocurrency invention. Yes, cryptocurrency is a major revolution, no the original bitcoin is not the second coming of Christ, any more than the first mass produced Ford is the be all or end all, or the first Apple I is the only and best computer to use forevermore…
A. Prove me wrong about this fact: The amount of energy consumed and diverted from real wealth production to “mine” 100$ of bitcoin is about as much as the energy used to mine 100$ of silver, which is a lot and hurts us. The free shit for nothing bitcoin investment of time is another form of energy that is diverted from wealth production and is an impediment to peak prosperity via sustainable community building. An example of this is the comment above you can invest $11,000 today and in 5 years have increased your money over 90x. OK so lets divert energy away from community wealth production and join the banksters in the great American looting game… This is a big part of bitcoin apparently. Each of the previous financial bubbles (the build out of the internet was an example) arose from advances in technology that took time to absorb and the cryptocurrency revolution is not an exception. Things are kind of unstable now and not dominated by real wealth production but instead money for nothing games.
B. Prove me wrong about this fact: Wall street has figured out how to BS the value of bitcoin with futures trading in bitcoin. The free market is over for bitcoin. Vast currencies can be pulled out of a banker’s butt and is used on a daily basis to jack the bit coin price. This not our savior. see for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiECo7ZnXeU C. why or how is Greg M incorrect in this video. Have you considered his arguments?
Bitcoin takes too long and is not trivial to use. Bitch and complain all you want but the international bankersters are coming out with their own cryptocurrency for international transactions that will be more efficient (esp. energy wise) (D. prove me wrong on this fact), more stable in valuation (E. this is another fact, prove me wrong), and easier to use than bitcoin to buy advanced products from China. And, corrupt governments are rolling out their own digital currencies and will force you to pay taxes with a currency that is not bitcoin.
A completely ignored fact is that government=globalist bankers and they are one entity. Even if a government politician cannot control bitcoin, the globalist investors do control bitcoin, They are really one entity. G. prove me wrong on this fact that the bankers control
We need to work with a currency that is tightly linked to value added real production and not controlled by the corrupt investor class of money-for-nothing arm chair keyboarders who do not produce wealth. We need to build the sort of tools that Charles Hugh Smith alluded to in his new book. Bitcoin doesnt address those problems that we discussed in the comments section of his talk with CM.
I agree with Mohammed Mast. The anti-bitcoin arguments on here are all total dogshit. All of them. There is no intellectual honesty on this site when it comes to bitcoin. News flash: It’s OK to admit you don’t understand bitcoin or you are scared of it, don’t trust it. But it’s enough already with these stupid fucking arguments. DaveFairtax, are you really trying to tell us you’ve done cost/benefit analysis on the potential impact of quantum computing and have determined that bitcoin is a bad investment because of it? This is your scientific opinion on the matter? Give me a break.
Mots,
Terrible post. You are wrong. Just plain wrong about everything. LOL I almost can’t believe how bad your post is.
I dont have a dog in this fight. I really dont give a shit, dog shit or otherwise…
why not address some of my facts? I am merely responding to the basic facts
I would be extremely happy to find out that my facts are wrong since I would like to use a stable reliable source of value for trading that is easy to use. I really would like to find a reliable tool that is fair, simple and is linked to and encourages real wealth production. The value of a man’s digital wallet contents should be determined by his efforts and how well he contributed to the needs of those around him. Not by invester bankster groups or speculators. The basic elements of the cryptocurrency invention can be applied to a local based real bills type of currency that can mesh with payments to the outside wherein only wealth creators and buyers of their goods set the value. Bitcoin is a nice experiment that demonstrates some nice principles. I was hoping that hashgraph would be used in a format that works for local transactions and wonder what has happened with that. I am interested in discussing the advantages/disadvantages of that and dont have time “for get rich without working!” schemes…
I was hoping that the cryptocurrency invention would be applied for a real bills usage (look up the real bills doctrine). This, unlike the simplistic use of bitcoin as an investment by those who do not participate in real wealth production could cut out the bankster class and insulate from parasites freeloading off of wealth creators. Maybe such discussion of the real value and use of the cryptocurrency invention must be sought on a different blogsite where deeper cryptocurrency thinkers can be found.
your profligate use of expletives is charming?
when crypto goes to the moon, it will take the moon to buy food . a summary of Mots.
husbandfatherfarmer, and one who has little respect for…
Mots, I’ll give you credit it does seem like you are trying to learn. Unfortunately your thoughts are so absurd to me that I don’t have the energy to rebut them all. Why do I have to prove you wrong that “Wall Street has figured out a way to BS the value of bitcoin” and “the free market is over for bitcoin”. Bitcoin is the freest, fairest market in human history. I think there’s a case to be made that free market capitalism was never even possible before bitcoin. Your claims are beyond absurd. I can’t engage with them lol I’m sorry. Our starting points are too far apart.
You are acting like an arrogant, petulent child - you have no idea the depth of some of the intellects you are engaging with here, especially when it comes to Mots. While I still tend toward a positive outlook on Bitcoin, it’s because our dept-based fiat currency is so corrupt and so non-transparent… Bitcoin has it’s place.
The argument Mots makes here is absolutely relevant;
B. Prove me wrong about this fact: Wall street has figured out how to BS the value of bitcoin with futures trading in bitcoin. The free market is over for bitcoin. Vast currencies can be pulled out of a banker's butt and is used on a daily basis to jack the bit coin price. This not our savior. see for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiECo7ZnXeU C. why or how is Greg M incorrect in this video. Have you considered his arguments?Once a leveraged paper market is created whereby toilet paper digital fiat can be used to move the market around, you can no longer call Bitcoin a free market. Mostly free still? Maybe, but still.. it's now polluted. https://www.cmegroup.com/trading/bitcoin-futures.html Oh look, our old friends at CME.. we should trust them, right? At least there is an underlying market where Bitcoin itself is traded.. the bankers have been so successful at their games with Gold and Silver over the years that there literally is no underlying, physical market. The tail wags the dog in PM's.
nhuvelle, people like you that attack anyone that asks questions, and are full of arrogance and intolerance are why people don’t want to believe in cryptocurrencies.
As to the merits of your argument - well, it confirms that cryptocurrencies are mostly a faith-based affair. That doesn’t make it worthless or any less viable. But unless this attitude changes, crypto is not going to go mainstream. And without going mainstream, you can kiss the moonshot valuations good-bye.
The good thing about a truly free market, which bitcoin and only bitcoin is, is that it doesn’t matter if the space is filled with douchebags like me. If you don’t believe in bitcoin now, you might FOMO in at 50k or more likely at 250k. But the free market will not be denied it doesn’t matter what you think or what I say. Have a good week everyone :).
Also Mots, you’re saying you want a cheaper to produce money? It shouldn’t be as costly as silver?? Do you not understand that having the marginal cost of production of bitcoins move up in lockstep with the price is the whole point of this thing? Proof of Work requiring miners to spend their thermodynamic energy combined with bi weekly difficulty adjustments to keep the system in a perpetual non-equilibrium state is literally the most important thing to understand about bitcoin. And massive price increases are an important piece of the equation. This is what the “Blockchain not Bitcoin” people don’t understand IMO. See y’all in the citadels.
my main point is that we are all ignoring the most important issue, raised by CHS:
as I stated we need " a reliable tool that is fair, simple and is linked to and encourages real wealth production. The value of a man’s digital wallet contents should be determined by his efforts and how well he contributed to the needs of those around him"
Bitcoin does not do this and actually is getting more and more corrupt/bankerized with time.
>>>>Money issuance should be determined solely by and directly limited by real wealth production.<<<<<<
Diverting a large proportion of precious energy to “mining” bitcoin is NOT a solution. Hashgraph uses vastly less energy and has some pluses and minuses but overall would be a better candidate to harness for a real goods currency system that directly connects to and represents real wealth. This is apposite to banker and hedge fund managed monetary moonshots.
The real bills doctrine could be embedded into a labor cryptocurrency to make this happen, as intimated by CHS.
I hope that people do not spend too much precious time and resources on participating in bankster games. We have small resilient communities to build.
Agree to disagree Mots. I think the high energy expenditure is absolutely necessary for Bitcoin. But it’s not “diverting” precious resources. Au contraire. The hyper competitive nature of bitcoin mining incentivizes miners to seek out the most efficient, renewable energy sources. I think this will be amazing for our energy on this plane. We are going to go from a world with finite energy and infinite fiat money to a world with infinite energy and absolutely scarce money.
Edit- And besides, I own my purchase power I can do what I want with my electricity. It’s not wasteful if it’s how I want to use it.