Collapse Is Already Here

Finn is right that the three E’s are the main point of this site, but for some there is an additional belief system at work with respect to climate change and it tends to divide us. Consider the graphics below. The first shows that earth, on average, has been warming for a few decades, and in particular, the central U.S. seems to have been very recently heated.

cmartenson wrote:
. . . What to make of this image then?
But then my "local dust bowl anecdote" is supported by this. The correct conclusion to be drawn here is that the earth has warmed in recent decades, but they have not been the warmest on record in the U.S. in terms of extreme temperatures. The problem with trying to blame climate change for the ecological crises is that the the situation is not crystal clear and supported by sparkling clean, undeniable data. In my opinion, climate change has nothing to do with the developing ecological crisis in which we find ourselves. It pleases me that Chris says that our problems transcend climate change.
cmartenson wrote:
. . .I am also quite sensitive to the idea that modeling the climate is well beyond our capabilities at present. Even trying to model known complex systems that are simple (in the sense of having very few, well-known inputs or variables) eludes us so what chance do we have of modeling something consisting of literally thousands of intertwined complex systems where many of the inputs aren't even known? Pretty much none, which is why I don't put much stock in any of the efforts to try and contain warming to some number like 2 degrees C. We could already be well beyond that and our models wouldn't even know until it showed up. But I do know that the ecosphere is collapsing. SHE is dying, and I can, also like Snydemann, feel that in my guts. I just know it. I also know that humans are 7.8 billion and headed to ~ 10 billion at current trajectories. I also know that we are eating, walking, talking above-ground oil. Chemical energy in the ground is converted, at a loss, into food energy above ground and we eat it and expand our numbers. Somehow we need to reverse that trend. So the question becomes what's the best method of communicating and achieving that? I've long avoided "climate change" as the means of rallying people to the cause of weaning ourselves off of fossil fuels because it violates most of the rules for effective personal change. Climate change is: Complicated and statistical (meaning uncertain) Going to bite at a future date Routinely violated by individual's local weather observations ("brrrr...it's cold today!") Something over which an individual has no sense of agency at all Does not have 'a face' that we can hate. In other words, it's distant, uncertain, and something my personal actions will not change in the slightest and the worst part is the 'face' I have to hate is my own staring back in the mirror. But it's also true that showing people all the data about fossil fuel dependency and population growth elicits virtually no reaction from most people even though that data is both linear and easy to connect, model and explain. So the question becomes...what is the best way to reach people that leads them to action?
I think that the best way is the one that Chris has already taken with the Crash Course. I have shared these high quality presentations with most of my friends and many others. I think that most of them have understood the arguments, but most feel that they are rather powerless to do anything to change the trends. There is not some one-size-fits-all solution here. In Africa and much of the third world, the most pressing need is to raise incomes so that people can have the luxury of cleaning up the environment. In the developed nations, the need is for political overhauls that would prevent powerful industrial polluters from continuing their destructive, but short-term profitable ways. Or maybe we just booked passage on the Titanic and should enjoy the band while we can. Stan

This one is for Old Guy

Have a laugh here

If climate change is in fact anthropogenic, then it stems mostly from the burning of fossil fuels. The human race is now entirely addicted to cheap energy from abundant oil, so any proposal to cut consumption is futile. The political will and economic incentives simply do not exist.
However, the problem will soon solve itself. We have already consumed all of the easy-to-reach oil in the last 50 years. What is left is becoming ever more difficult to extract, with a much lower EROEI, so will obviously become increasingly expensive until it becomes unaffordable, except for very specialized applications.
According to the Institute of Mechanical Engineers, there are 1.3 trillion barrels of proven oil reserve left in the world’s major fields, which at present rates of consumption should last 40 years. https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/world-energy-day-2014-how-much-oil-left-how-long-will-it-last-1471200
However, the organization also emphasizes that by 2040, production levels may be down to 15 million barrels per day – just 20% of what we currently consume.
Whichever way you look at it, burning of fossil fuels will inevitably decline precipitously over the next fifty years, regardless of the demand or the action (or inaction) of our political ‘leaders’.
Popular alternative energy sources, such as wind and solar, will never make up the shortfall but, hopefully, entirely new sources of clean energy, such as the Liquid Flouride Thorium Reactor (LFTR) will emerge to keep us all warm and mobile.

As Chris has repeatedly explained, exponential growth on a planet with finite resources cannot continue indefinitely. So one way or another this problem is going to be resolved within the next few decades. In the meantime we should beware of people proposing solutions such as carbon credits, which will do absolutely nothing to slow climate change but will accelerate the flow of riches to the banksters.
Doug wrote:
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Most scary is the polar shift, it is accelerating. This will very probably mean that the protective shield around the earth will disappear in the near future, then we will have so much radiation most of the life/people could die from cancer.
Over Christmas my niece was visiting for a while. She is a geophysicist specializing in this very topic. I asked her about the polar shift. She shrugged her shoulders and said probably not any time soon, but it is an outside possibility. But, even if it does happen it probably won't be that big a deal.
Doug, I just found an interesting PDF at https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/1040918.pdf Titled:
CATACLYSMIC POLARITY SHIFT IS U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY PREPARED FOR THE NEXT GEOMAGNETIC POLE REVERSAL?
This 2015 paper was written by Tyler J. Williams, Capt. USAF in partial fulfillment of graduation requirements. I estimate that the audience he was addressing were non-tecnically minded USAF personnel. His writing is easy to read and doesn't include too much confusing jargon. You should be able to easily digest it. The .pdf is 71 pages, of which 50 pages are the body (double spaced) and the rest is foreground information or references. Let's begin with the Abstract. [Note that all bolding is mine.]
ABSTRACT The Earth’s core is undergoing a dramatic change with geomagnetic field strength dropping by 40% over the last 400 years, and satellite observations showing the field weakening ten times faster than previously calculated. These changes are a precursor to a common geological phenomenon known as a geomagnetic polarity reversal, where the north and south magnetic poles of the Earth reverse. Geomagnetic polarity reversals significantly decrease the strength of the magnetic field, thereby considerably increasing the interaction of the solar wind with the Earth’s atmosphere and biosphere. The purpose of this research is to answer if the United States is prepared for the impacts to national security resulting from the next geomagnetic polarity reversal. The report begins with an overview of pole reversals, then evaluates the effects of reversals on United States national security by utilizing six evaluation criteria ranging from infrastructure areas such as the electrical power grid to national response capabilities. The research evaluates the impacts of increases in solar and cosmic radiation and the threat of adverse space weather during a polarity transition on United States national security. This research concluded that the nation is not prepared for both geomagnetic polarity reversals and adverse space weather. Furthermore, the nation has neglected funding for geoscience and geomagnetism research. Based on the conclusions, this research recommends increasing geoscience and geomagnetism funding, spearheading an international geomagnetic initiative, developing response, recovery and risk plans at the national level and preparing the national infrastructure for the threats posed by pole reversals.
He goes on to say that reversals have happened 143 times in the last 40 million years. In the last 25 million years, reversals occur on average every 250 thousand years. Our last reversal was 780 thousand years ago, so we're overdue given recent geologic history. He also notes that we've had several excursions (failed reversal attempt) since the last reversal. What we're experiencing with magnetic pole migration may be the beginnings of a reversal or just another excursion. We won't know until we know.
Over the course of several hundred to thousand years during the reversal, the magnetic field becomes distorted and weakened.21The magnetosphere fluctuates from a geomagnetic dipole to multipolar field, decreasing in strength down to ten percent of its average intensity.22
With a weaker magnetosphere, the earth is more susceptible to solar storms, solar flares, solar coronal mass ejections, and intergalactic cosmic rays. The weaker shield will also leave our outer atmosphere less protected against the solar wind, thus stripping oxygen and ozone (the good kind) away. High altitude ozone blocks UV radiation. The loss of protection effect is more pronounced at high latitudes. That means that Canada will be more exposed than Costa Rica to mutagenic and carcinogenic radiation.
The strongest CME to hit Earth in the modern era was the 1859 Carrington event, which disrupted telegraph services around the northern hemisphere causing machines to catch fire, operator injuries, and created auroras as far south as Cuba.43
The Carrington event caused an electromagnetic pulse (EMP.) We were just starting to use electricity back then. Imagine how much damage a similar event would cause today to our electrical grid. How likely would that be?
The likelihood of a CME striking the Earth during a polarity reversal is very high. During the 11-year solar cycle, the Sun produces one ejection per week at solar minimum, with 2 to 3 events per day at solar maximum.47 In a 200-year period for polarity reversal completion, the Sun would produce a minimum of 10,000 CME events assuming solar minimum numbers, with several superstorm events like the one in 1859.48 As stated by renowned Physicist Dr. Michio Kaku, the United States is, “…playing Russian roulette with the Sun. Sooner or later we are going to lose that bet…
Fortunately, the sun has had reduced numbers of sunspots the last 2 cycles and is forecast to have even more reduced output for the next 2 cycles. Still, that's not much relief if the reversal takes centuries to occur. He later shows Figure 5 - a map of the electrical backbone grid of the lower 48 states (I can't copy the picture) that shows the likely areas to be affected by a Carrington event if it happened today. The eastern third of the country north of Florida would be hit as would the Pacific Northwest States of Washington, Oregon, and Idaho. (It isn't clear to me why the midwest wouldn't be hit unless this were a simulation based on the Carrington event time of day. He provides a link to a source, but that link is dead.) It's not just the grid that would be affected. Unhardened satellites would fail, anything relying on steady electricity would encounter extreme difficulties. Modern farming relies on center pivot irrigation to a large extent. Without electricity, the pumps don't work and the pivoting doesn't happen - and that's assuming the motors aren't fried by the EMP. The EMP would likely fry all computer electronics and electrical wires in motors. Essentially, large swaths of the country would be driven back to the 1800s almost instantaneously. I'm trying to figure out why your niece was so cavalier about it all. Either she is only looking at the geophysical aspect without considering the human aspect, she doesn't know that of which she speaks, or she knows you well enough to know that you don't take well to facts that don't align with your belief system. To keep peace and harmony at the family gathering, she just proffered a throw-away remark - thinking that it wouldn't go anywhere. Although this quote was early in the paper, it was my favorite, so in closing, I'll post it here. Remember, the bolding is mine.
Unlike the debate surrounding man-made climate change and global warming, polarity reversals are a proven natural phenomenon that have occurred hundreds of times in the Earth’s past, and will happen again in the future.4
Grover

The Cstastropic Consequences of a Nuclear AI
Peak Prosperity Interview AKGrannyWGrit

As she explained it, a polar flip would happen on a time scale of a thousand years. So, we would have time to adapt. Being the most adaptable creatures on earth, we (or more accurately, many generations into the future) will come through it with some adjustment. Even quick changes will be measured in decades or centuries.

AKGrannyWGrit posted:
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Yes, but we are nowhere near 1:1 net energy on oil yet, so there is still a LOT of money to be made as net energy values continue to approach 1:1. Even though flow rates and total daily volumes will lessen, price fluctuations and intentional manipulations will be used by the financial parasites to extract wealth out of the system.
We are definitely in Klare’s era of endless wars for resources, especially oil, coupled with Heinberg’s era of “burning the furniture.”

Autos at best only use 25% of the energy comsumed to move the car down the road. If you add in the energy cost to manufacture vehicles and create and maintain the roadway infrastructure, if we are above 10% I would be shocked. EROEI of oil is below 10:1 so we are net energy negative now there in a big way.
Our whole building infrastructure, lots of energy to construct,consumes enormous amounts of energy to run (40% of energy consumed), no EROEI there. Farming, 10 calories of fossil fuel energy per food calorie, big loser there.
The entire human civilization project, big energy loser. I don’t think 1:1 is going to stop us. We will pump until we can’t.
The level of transformation required to get us anywhere near energy neutral is truely mind boggling.

Doug wrote:
As she explained it, a polar flip would happen on a time scale of a thousand years. So, we would have time to adapt. Being the most adaptable creatures on earth, we (or more accurately, many generations into the future) will come through it with some adjustment. Even quick changes will be measured in decades or centuries.
Doug, Has your niece written any peer reviewed papers on polar flips? You, of all people should know how important it is to only trust peer reviewed papers. /snark From what I have read, pole flips are currently impossible to predict. Historically "fast" ones are on the order of a century and slow ones can last millenia. Since our magnetic field has decreased 40% in the last 400 years and magnetic polar migration has been accelerating of late, it doesn't look like we've got the luxury of centuries to deal with it. The World Magnetic Model was scheduled to be released in 2020, but the migration of the magnetic poles made the model obsolete and an interim model has been released.
https://www.space.com/43244-magnetic-earth-model-updated.html Previously, the World Magnetic Model, which tracks Earth's roving magnetic north pole, was updated in 2015 with the intent that the model would last until 2020. But the magnetic north pole had other plans. It began lurching unexpectedly away from the Canadian Arctic and toward Siberia more quickly than expected.
The paper I cited in post#213 specifically stayed away from the then (2015) controversial idea that cosmic rays increase the incidence of volcanoes. I've recently seen papers that show cosmic rays effects on silicic magma where the interaction frees up water molecules from the silica rich magma. The freed water enhances eruptive forces. Have you noticed the increase in volcanic activity these last few years. Coincidentally, that's when the sun has gone into sunspot minimum. Sunspot minimum is marked by lower solar output and a diminished solar wind and magnetic shield. That allows more cosmic rays into our solar system. Our next line of defense is the earth's magnetosphere. Unfortunately, that has diminished 40% in the last 400 years.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1342937X10001966 Explosive volcanic eruptions triggered by cosmic rays: Volcano as a bubble chamber It is well known that the cosmic-ray flux is negatively correlated with solar magnetic activity, as the strong magnetic field in the solar wind repels charged particles such as galactic cosmic rays that originate from outside of the solar system. The strong negative correlation observed between the timing of silica-rich eruptions and solar activity can be explained by variations in cosmic-ray flux arising from solar modulation.
Of course, if you are basically interested only in short-term problems, this from Boomer41's post#212 should fit the bill. One way or another, our oil habit will end soon.
Boomer41 wrote:
According to the Institute of Mechanical Engineers, there are 1.3 trillion barrels of proven oil reserve left in the world's major fields, which at present rates of consumption should last 40 years. https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/world-energy-day-2014-how-much-oil-left-how-long-will-it-last-1471200 However, the organization also emphasizes that by 2040, production levels may be down to 15 million barrels per day – just 20% of what we currently consume. Whichever way you look at it, burning of fossil fuels will inevitably decline precipitously over the next fifty years, regardless of the demand or the action (or inaction) of our political 'leaders'.
So, given that fossil fuels will inevitably decline precipitously regardless of action (or inaction) of our political 'leaders', do you still think that levying a carbon tax is the best way to proceed? Since you want to provide subsidies for the poor people to offset the tax, you are essentially disproportionately taxing the middle class. (The rich will buy loopholes from your esteemed 'leaders.') You provided no mention of controlling the other economic powerhouses of the world - China, India, Japan, etc. How will you get them to reduce their CO2 output? Does it really make sense for us to limit our output and negatively impact our economy if they won't cut output as well? Hmmm. I really don't care what you choose to do on your own; however, politicians glom onto stupid ideas and rush to the forefront to lead those with more hope than sense into voting for them. Any politician who proposed your "start" as a plan should be avoided completely! Unfortunately, the stars in your eyes will get in the way and the hope that this "plan" will save us from your deep seated fear of global warming (or climate change or whatever it will be called at that time) will be enough for you to vote for taxes on everyone (but especially the middle class.) Frankly, Doug, I don't expect anything I write to convince you of anything. I can't recall anyone I've met whose belief systems are as strong as yours. You are totally impervious to logic and facts that go against your belief systems. I can only hope that enough people who read this take the time and make the effort to investigate the real facts. Grover
Grover wrote:
Frankly, Doug, I don't expect anything I write to convince you of anything. I can't recall anyone I've met whose belief systems are as strong as yours. You are totally impervious to logic and facts that go against your belief systems. I can only hope that enough people who read this take the time and make the effort to investigate the real facts. Grover
Can I get an amen from the congregation?
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totally impervious to logic and facts that go against your belief systems.
That could be said about a number of people around here. It could also be said that some people's "logic and facts" are speculative at best, not to mention riddled with confirmation bias. Try to stay respectful as we sort through different perspectives ... because the other person might not be the only slow learner in the conversation.
Yoxa wrote:
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totally impervious to logic and facts that go against your belief systems.
That could be said about a number of people around here. It could also be said that some people's "logic and facts" are speculative at best, not to mention riddled with confirmation bias. Try to stay respectful as we sort through different perspectives ... because the other person might not be the only slow learner in the conversation.
Yoxa, You must be referring to household candles being able to melt structural steel I-beams (in the part of your message that I bolded.) It is really easy to shut me up. I just want to see a credible, defensible plan to solve the problem of global warming or climate change (or whatever it is or will be called.) That's all! So far, all I've seen is half-witted "starts" or the equivalent of gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands. Nobody even questions whether or not they're being herded to this conclusion through a concerted effort by TPTB and their media handmaidens. I've actually searched for a plan. I can't find it. I cajoled Mark Cochrane a couple of years ago. He finally admitted that he knows of no plan. In a subsequent post on another thread, he said that other climate scientists get unusually quiet whenever he brings up the topic. Based on that information, I have concluded that global warming is a predicament that only has outcomes. (If there is no solution, it can't be a problem.) It's up to you "true believers" who think there is a solution to find it. Post it here and I'll be one of the first to thank you. The continued sound of electronic crickets means that I am closer to the right track. Perhaps it is time to reevaluate the situation ... given this new information. Grover
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You must be referring to household candles being able to melt structural steel I-beams
Grover, please go back and re-read that thread more carefully. That is not what was said.
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I just want to see a credible, defensible plan
Please describe what it would take for you to consider a plan / proposal to be credible and defensible. Or if you'd find it easier to think from the negative direction, tell us what would make a plan not credible in your eyes.
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half-witted "starts"
We need vast action but so far what we've got is half-vast.
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no solution
Time will tell. In the meantime we should (IMHO) at least work on harm reduction.

Two kinds of people in the world:

  1. Those who accept the dominant narrative, identify with it, and actively defend it.
  2. Those who refuse the dominant narrative, hate its duplicity, and struggle to destroy it.
    There is some deep underlying psychological process which separates the groups. Damn I wish I knew how that really worked.
    The specific issue of the day doesn’t matter: vaccinations, Assad gassing his own people, the desirability of Round-up ready GMOs, 9/11, sandy hook, promoting freedom in Venezuela, Gulf of Tonkin, Iraqs WMD, bombing Libya, needing domestic surveillance to protect us, Russian meddling in the US election…
    You either are INSIDE the matrix and fighting for its continuity, or OUTSIDE it, wanting to destroy it.
    I suspect that there are competing hardwired needs in humans: to belong to the herd and to be independent from the herd.

Grover, do you really want to come up with a credible plan? If so, then one needs to figure out how to get “there”, from “here”. Rules for Rulers has stood in the way so far.
I am not convinced that there IS a plan, but if there is to be a credible plan, it must account for the sociaological laws in “getting there”.
Before twenty years ago, there was no way to account for that. However, because of the introduction of the parker sochacki solution to the picard iteration, it is now possible to reduce complex systems of differential and non-differential equations, down to ordinary math.
So it can be tried.
If one were to try it, a side effect might be better forecasting of financial performance; therefore, a side effect might be that an attempt to solve it could eventually fund itself. Till then, it would have to be done without funding.
But it requires a lot of people bending their minds and time to it in conjunction.
Do you want to try? Do others? I think I can lead the way.

sand_puppy wrote:
Two kinds of people in the world: 1. Those who accept the dominant narrative, identify with it, and actively defend it. 2. Those who refuse the dominant narrative, hate its duplicity, and struggle to destroy it. There is some deep underlying psychological process which separates the groups. Damn I wish I knew how that really worked. The specific issue of the day doesn't matter: vaccinations, Assad gassing his own people, the desirability of Round-up ready GMOs, 9/11, sandy hook, promoting freedom in Venezuela, Gulf of Tonkin, Iraqs WMD, bombing Libya, needing domestic surveillance to protect us, Russian meddling in the US election...... You either are INSIDE the matrix and fighting for its continuity, or OUTSIDE it, wanting to destroy it. I suspect that there are competing hardwired needs in humans: to belong to the herd and to be independent from the herd.

Seems a bit too binary for my tastes. I’d modify that to say that one may be on different sides depending on the issue one is dicussing. There are things I accept the dominant narrative on, and things I reject it on, and even things that fall somewhere between the two. Just because someone claims to be counter-mainstream doesn’t mean I’ll buy into what they are peddling. The mainstream narrative isn’t always wrong, and the “shadow-nets” aren’t always correct.

Everyone has an angle, after all, as well as goggles of varying clarity.

sand_puppy wrote:
I suspect that there are competing hardwired needs in humans: to belong to the herd and to be independent from the herd.
Actually, everything I know from psychology and sociology (required classes for educators) , as well as observing adolescants for two decades, tells me we are all hard-wired to want to be in a herd. The question is whether we want to be in the herd we are born into, herded into, or forced into. I joke around every year with the large group of "nerdy" anti-social kids who hang out together in a cubby during lunch periods, by pointing out that if all the anti-social kids socialize together, they aren't being anti-social. What they mean when they say anti-social is that they prefer a much smaller, non-mainstream herd to run with. But they still run with a herd.

As a species we survived precisely because of our gregarious nature, after all, and our ability to form communities for our mutual survival is why our brains developed with the linguistic capacity they have.

First, everything we do is for maximum percieved benefit for minimum effort. Pick the easy fruit first. Also, automate the harvest of data as much as possible.
Within that context, we need better understanding of sociological situations as they are. Therefore, we harvest data from the web. Prices, availability, population data, data on Cities within states, states withing nations, nationality.
So there is that.
Then we relate everything we can. If there is a putative relation, we look for the relation using fourier correlation. Just FYI, I can show how to do a discrete fourier transform using drafting tools.
Once we have a correllation, we formulate a prediction, and then watch the prediction versus the predicted quantity. Prediction failures both are ripe for prediction improvement, and for rating the probability of the forecast.
The point here is to eliminate variables. It also isn’t so important that a thing be useful; though we target utility when possible.
Once we relate elements, then investment can start to pay off better than for the average investor.
Now, with the predictions, we also forecast sociological crises that are coming. First, we avoid them ourselves. It’s hard to do math when a train is slamming into your car. But then, we also look to “what can we successfully change already”, and “what will bring us to the right goal with minimum action, minimum effort”. The goal is not to maximize power; it is to achieve the goal with minimum effort, deftly redirecting others’ predicted actions to bring about the goal of reducing population peacefully and controllably, without murder or strife or theft, and reducing environmentally bad impacts.
To do that, we also have to study the effect of small tweaks, on small systems… and predict those effects as well, then attempt them, and then carry them out, and then analyze the effects.
This is no small task for just a couple people. But it can be done.
I will state outright that barring any better option, I still advocate the short term target of ecologically sustainable intentional communities, sharing services and a ziggurat-type house, centered in a garden, with a mixture of ownership and joint ownership. I favor population reduction by means of delaying youth entry into mating, and for people with a living child over 18, the cessation of significant life-extending medical care, but not simple nursing care. Those two things MUST go hand in hand. I still favor traditional marriage, for many reasons. There is a huge amount of sociological, and therefore environmental damage done due to divorce. Faithfulness is critical, and especially in the family.
Get it right, and it can copy and spread.

I think we have to be very careful with sweeping statements; “The world is like THIS”…“People are either like THIS or like THAT”…“THIS is the way everything IS”. The truth is we, as human beings, have very little idea what is going on, why it is going, and how it can all be managed [ and whether it can or should be managed at all ].
We like to make firm, unyielding proclamations because it makes us feel as though we know what we are talking about. Upon a firm foundation, we can build a set of insights and ideas about the world. Unfortunately, no such firm footing can be had.