Dave Janda: Bad Medicine

Am really enjoying this discussion. Returning to the rationing theme–I agree with Mobs that this is actually a good idea. There are formulas that exist, and in a lot of cases they make sense. They were implemented by the United Kingdoms National Institute of Health. Chris expressed some discomfort with the NIH. It's totally true–the NIH is being privatized now, all bets are off, and things are going to get worse and worse for UK health outcomes. However, the NIH was once a really fantastic place—a public health school model of efficiency and a national system that people adored. And part of their success was because they base their decisions on economic and other types of disease-related modeling for long-term events.
Here’s a true example. The NIH asked the question: "What are the potential long-term downstream effects from mandating the chickenpox vaccine?" They developed a model comparing what it would cost to treat the chickenpox cases vs a: i) lifetime chickenpox boosters; and ii) a very high assessed potential for increased shingles incidence, across the lifespan. It looks like #ii is coming true. It’s a kind of long-term approach that we rarely touch with a 10-foot pole in the U.S. A notable exception is the liver transplant program that was mentioned previously.

That said, we TOTALLY have rationing in the U.S. The problem is, the rationing is occurring one way in Medicare, another way at private payers (and across private payers), and probably another way altogether in Medicaid (which I don’t know as much about). Then you have the VA….I could go on. The rationing is real, it’s happening right now and it has been for a while. It’s just different motivations driving different groups. My disagreement with Dr. Janda’s was that I don’t think the federal government is driving this—they are totally letting the private sector play their part. 

 

I have discussed this problem with older doctors who all said the same thing: that the US used to have a great system of doctor owned and operated community hospitals until something happened starting in the 60s and 70s.  The MBAs came to town and literally took over (took legal ownership by buying out and then managing) via MBA trickery to maximize profit, without knowing, learning, or caring about the industry they took over.
But the transition from professionalism to MBA driven racketeering has occurred in all other fields of economic life at the same time.  I dont have time within this internet chit chat crap session to give my specific observations as a patent attorney watching the patents and businesses over the years devolve from new advances to improve quality of life down into protecting new scam technologies for fooling and cheating and maximizing deception (seen in pharmaceuticals as well as in internet technology, computer technology) but I personally have had it.  I recently abandoned my successful K street law office because the law no longer serves the people but is completely misused by large players who push the levers with their connections and power to screw everyone else, using every possible legal angle imaginable.  Everything (from a legal perspective) has been taken over.  Whether you consider the election selection system, the main stream media, the prison system, the patent system (the laws were changed to favor the rich over the inventor, to my astonishment and surprise), the food system etc.  It is over…  Time to leave.
But this is already known to readers at Martenson's PP.  This type of thing happened in Rome after it matured as an empire and came crashing down as an over-ripe rotten organization to be replaced eventually by something else.  The exciting and worthwhile activity is to identify and develop that something else.  For many reasons all such thinking leads to the same conclusion: small community development.  

  1. we have all the world's technology for free at our fingertips. For the first time in human history, we can do it ourselves, we dont need Washington DC, Geneva Switzerland, Tokyo, London, the bank of ingternational settlements, international racketeers etc to provide us things.  We can develop direct relationships with producers (such as Chinese factories-this is easy to do) or make everything locally.
  2. the most important things a. food b. water, c. energy (at least solar and wind) are easier and cheaper and better to get locally
  3. all the answers: the rewarding jobs, meaningful existence in a world of robots who can replace the jobs, meaningful relationships, resiliency, achievement of real health goals, etc. are found locally.and ONLY locally
    Because of 1, 2 and 3, we dont need the international bankers, the internationalists who own and operate Washington DC, Tokyo with their TPP, TIPP etc, the big banks etc. We can live better lives without them and THEY need US, not the other way around.
    Small community development based medical care, disease prevention, banking, food/agriculture, energy, entertainment, etc. is exciting, and is THE answer to these basic problems. Moreover, this solution is not a 100% leave it or do it decision or requirement but each person can make small baby steps in this direction and feel good improving his or her lot incrementally.  Everyone feels this or thinks it already.  In fact, this is a main reason why people come to PP and follow C Martenson's and member examples. Many others report on their progress in the group section, but we need more specific tools for measuring incremental progress.  Continuing chit chat crap on one site in the internet is not the answer, especially given the fact that 99% or more of the best information (for information's sake) is NOT found on any one site, including this one… Small community development efforts can be measured and assayed.  Individual efforts and successes can be measured and assayed. Having a "go to" place to find others is nice and done by a number of sites in addition to this one and can facilitate feel good kumbayas, but we need a better tool founded in diagnostic measures of incremental progress.  I am working on such tool but am overwhelmed with my energy project and have no time (www.yugeshima.com).
    Anyway, my two cents: every effort towards small community development is a step in the direction of if not fixing the problem, at least creating a better alternative.  The future (for the minority who get it together in time) is in small communities.  It is easy to step towards food and energy (and in some part to health- consider Adam's posts) sufficiency, and I know some physicians are working towards medical care based on small community, but we need more information and discussion of alternative (non-MBA organized) health care development efforts at the small community level.  The last time I said this, I was castigated as not appreciating how great the groups section of this blog is or how great it can become.  But we need a better tool that can allow a person to measure and check each baby step in the path towards resiliency.  Making "contacts" and "finding solutions" is not difficult, considering how big the internet is, and the notion that one site such as this one is "the answer" is rather presumptive…  But, that is is a subject for another attention time frame…
    anyway, best wishes if you are still reading this unintentionally long diatribe…

 

Stopped listening when he started jabbering on about "globalism" and Ron Paul. Where do you get these Libertardian guests, or rather, WHY do you get them? I noticed that a single payer system, which works well in most countries (and in Australia where I now live, having abandoned the US), was not cited as a solution. No surprises there.

Stopped listening when he started jabbering on about "globalism" and Ron Paul. Where do you get these Libertardian guests, or rather, WHY do you get them? I noticed that a single payer system, which works well in most countries (and in Australia where I now live, having abandoned the US), was not cited as a solution. No surprises there.

Apart from having to keep adjusting the volume in the car (and apart from Chris getting minimal air time), I found this podcast to be exceptional! Not sure how much was embellished, but regardless this interview was very eye-opening for me and I hope he’ll be back on PP again. Thanks, Chris, for bringing him on.

Check out John Michael Greer's latest fictional installment for a take on how GMOs and corporate denail/hubris could be the spark that breaks up the union …

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-05-18/elizabeth-holmes-admits-theranos-technolgy-fraud-restates-voids-years-test-results

Finally, the question everyone should be asking is who enabled this fraud for so many years?

 

 

Complete and utter bullshit!   I give up.  Sign me up for the Mars mission.

[Quote]
Time2help wrote:
The latest issue of Mother Earth News contains an interview with a retired genetic engineer (and former soil biologist) who spent his professional career advocating pesticides and did an "about face" in retirement as a serious gardener.  He gives an indepth (yet easy to understand) explanation of how glyphosate kills plants and microbes by chelating the manganese required to build a specific essential protein.  It's one of the best explanations I've read.  

http://www.motherearthnews.com/natural-health/glyphosate-toxicity-interview-with-thierry-vrain-zm0z16jjzkin.aspx

If you think your gut microbiome and the earth's microbial life are important, avoid glyphosate (Roundup (r)) and 90+/-% of processed foods.  Does the health of our gut microbiome affect our likelihood of developing cancer?  You bet it does!

Does the sick care industry give a darn about this?  No.  More glyphosate = more cancer = more money for the sick care industry.   

Sharon Lerner wrote an investigative piece for the Intercept the other day stating the opposite.Maybe the science and environmental folks on this site could weigh in?Would be helpful.

I stopped my bolding of your sentence before the word 'cancer' because our gut biome is responsible for maintaining all sorts of homeostasis within our complex systems.  Wrecked and ineffective gut biomes are linked to:

  • Cancer
  • Obesity
  • Mental health
  • Autoimmune disorders
  • Autism
We are learning more and more every day.  as the excellent linked article explains Glyphosate inhibits the Shikimate protein pathway and that is found in plants and many bacteria.

Farmers spray Glyphosate on oats just prior to harvesting because it is an awesome drying agent.  Then they are harvested and go to market and people eat them.

But the heavily co-opted system of ""science"" in the US ignores such complex issues, tests Glyphosate on mammalian cells, sees no overt toxicity and declares it safe.  It's rubbish "science" and the people involved are all sell-out hacks.

But I digress.

The Glyphosate story is a prefect microcosm of everything that's wrong with the state of 'health' and science in the US today, but also many other places across the globe.  Money and globalism have won the day.

You guys continue to blow me away with the depth and breadth of your interviews.  I have listened to Dr. Janda over the years agreeing and not agreeing with some of his viewpoints.  Part of the reason I have not always been open to what he is saying is the way he says it  i.e. with the jargon of conspiracy and religion.   But you have taught me a lesson.  I should not let my filters limit me.  I thought I was pretty good at being open minded but you have taught me that there is a whole other level of looking past my triggers and listening and learning.  Thank you!

#Triggered 

Some of the best lectures on the impact of the gut microbiome on the immune system are sequestered behind paywalls at the Institute of Functional Medicine and Prothera.
But a lot is known and the literature supporting the impact of friendly bacteria on immune moderation is abundant (perhaps >10,000 research articles).

I am no immunologist, but a few slides summarize the big themes.  Gut bacteria can calm or activate the immune system.  Old Friends, the commensal populations that we humans co-evolved with, calm the immune system by activating the TReg (T Lymphocyte Regulatory Cells).  Other populations over activate the Th2 and Th1 segments (not good) giving allergic and autoimmune disease.

Human immune disturbances have played an increasing role in chronic disease.

And for the gluttons for punishment who crave information overload, a slide from this summary article

 

 

TPTB News:

http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2016/05/driving-doctors-suicide.html
Substitute "doctors" with nurses, therapists of various sorts, overwhelmed family with no supports, and other overburdened caregivers as it speaks to you. 

I dont have time to digest all the studies and anyway, I agree with the conclusion of not using glyphosate.  However the basic "science" presented here is quack.  Glyphosate is not a great chelator (citric acid and tons of other stuff we use everyday in our shampoos and put into our mouths are probably better).  Glyphosate works as a very specific inhibitor of an enzyme involved in synthesizing certain branched chain amino acids.  This is because glyphosate chemically looks like an intermediate (transition state of a glycine substrate) and inactivates this specific enzyme by appearing to look like an intermediate in a reaction (binds the mouth part of the enzyme).  This is very analogous to how carbon monoxide destroys hemoglobin (carbon monoxide looks like CO2 and binds the active site of hemoglobin but does not let go, thereby gumming up and essentially destroying the molecule, and preventing oxygen transport).  Monsanto makes soybeans resistant to this specific inhibitor by putting in a new gene for a modified enzyme that does not bind this glycine-amino acid analogue in its active site.
If glyphosate were such a great chelator then it would at least be used as a chelator for some purpose somewhere in industry.  The fact that someone first made it in a search for improved chelators does not mean that it is a great chelator, and anyway all such small molecules are not specific and would bind calcium/copper/zinc and other things long before getting into a cell.  We use and eat humongous amounts of chelators that (as far as I can tell from my search on glyphosate chemistry) work to chelate metals better than glyphosate.    

I think that the science focus should be on the fact that synthesis of these branched chain amino acids is inhibited in gut flora, and that gut bacteria that are exposed to high enough levels of glyphoate are killed off.  A different flora result and change in immunomodulation etc. follows.  Just my two cents on where any informed discussion should go.

But the extreme effects of glyphosate on the environment in my opinion are much more damaging than effects on human health and are a bigger reason to shut down the Monsanto machine.  Anyone so interested in human health should be thousands of times more interested in attacking hedonism and gluttony as a way to prevent harm to human health.  But no one likes to look in the mirror and it is easy to blame our health problems on a known devil.

A major reason why Monsanto gets away with this crap is because so many of their detractors and attackers rely on junk science arguments, that are easy to disprove in a public forum, thereby painting silver caps on the opposition.  The more important story is how the soils have been changed for the worse, how biodiversity has been changed for the worse, use of legal machinery by Monsanto to destroy native biology (astounding how Monsanto is using the USDA to destroy native seed and other biology) and how microbes (to what extent and where) have been transformed.  

The glyphosate saga is repeated many times in many ways in other related industries.  Chlorination of public water for example causes much well documented cancer, which far exceeds the hypothesized damage of glyphosate, but is justified because:    a. originally public water chlorination saved many more lives than (we now know) are caused by the cancer;   and    b. governments dont want to spend the money  on better but expensive alternatives such as ozone or natural processes.  (these are rationing arguments and are real issues of cost/benefit that internet arm chair chit chat crappers ignore)
Much of this boils down to rationing of resources: the best ways of doing things (growing food in a world where no one wants to hoe weeds but wants cheapo food, cleaning water where supplies are stretched to the limit etc.) are not pursued because we need a cheap chemical fix.  Even after cancer from glyphosate is proven, Monsanto will continue, based on the argument that preventing starvation of millions by this alleged chemical savior is worth it.  Last I checked, the US government evaluates and makes decisions on public safety regulations based on a human life being worth 3,500,000$.  If a proposed regulation costs more than 3500000$ per life saved, it will not be implemented.  This rationing issue is the bottom line and trumps all facts and arguments about causing cancer etc. Even if a cancer is conjectured or proven, such fact does not settle the issue.  Eventually the arguments turn into cost/benefit and many things are ignored (your car's exhaust in front of my house is an example) based on this calculus. Best to walk away from the system.  

[Quote]
Time2help wrote:
The latest issue of Mother Earth News contains an interview with a retired genetic engineer (and former soil biologist) who spent his professional career advocating pesticides and did an "about face" in retirement as a serious gardener.  He gives an indepth (yet easy to understand) explanation of how glyphosate kills plants and microbes by chelating the manganese required to build a specific essential protein.  It's one of the best explanations I've read.  

http://www.motherearthnews.com/natural-health/glyphosate-toxicity-interview-with-thierry-vrain-zm0z16jjzkin.aspx

If you think your gut microbiome and the earth's microbial life are important, avoid glyphosate (Roundup (r)) and 90+/-% of processed foods.  Does the health of our gut microbiome affect our likelihood of developing cancer?  You bet it does!

Does the sick care industry give a darn about this?  No.  More glyphosate = more cancer = more money for the sick care industry.   

[/quote]

http://www.ageofautism.com/cdc-whistleblower/
Well, when you dumb down the population they are easier to control…

Mots - I wholeheartedly agree with 98% of what you wrote about glyphosate, cheap food, and the current system's cost/benefit analysis that "justifies" the rationing of resources.  However, I disagree that Mn chelation is "quack science".  Mn chelation is, in fact, the mechanisms by which glyphosate disrupts the synthesis of EPSPS, an essential amino acid required by plants, bacteria, and fungi to manufacture proteins. 

"Glyphosate (N-(phosphonomethyl) glycine) is a highly effective herbicide because of its potent and specific inhibition of 5-enolpyruvyl shikimate 3-phosphate synthase (EPSPS), an enzyme of the shikimate pathway that governs the synthesis of aromatic amino compounds in higher plants, algae, bacteria and fungi [2]. Its herbicidal action is generated by chelating manganese required in the reduction of the flavin mononucleotide (FMN) co-factor EPSPS [12]."  [Emphasis added]

Source:  http://www.nvlv.nl/downloads/2012-Krueger,%20M-glyphosate%20effects.pdf

The point is not that glyphosate is necessarily a strong chelator of Mn in soil and water (although the sorption coefficient [Kd] indicates strong chelation/sorption/complexation with iron and aluminum oxides and silcates in soil).  The point, on which I believe we agree, is that glyphosate disrupts the formation of essential amino acids and therefore proteins in plants, fungi, and bacteria - including our own gut bacteria. 

It's not "junk science".  I believe we are on the same side of the issue.

Duplicate post