Dave Janda: Bad Medicine

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This is not a scientific discussion and as a matter of basic chemistry you are wrong.  Citing an offhand comment (your quoted material you rely on) by a scientist outside of the specific specialty (the research paper is not a chemical or biochemical) does not make something true.  This is an example of how people who are not experts in something repeat inaccuracies. At some point someone relies on this fact to do something like sell snake oil or misdirect.
The paper you cited does not explain or go into any chemistry at all but mere cites a review article by yet other biologist or non-chemists that also provide no explanation or chemistry at all. No basis in reality anywhere in the liternature chain by non-chemical publishers.

If you want to debate chemistry, start with chemistry, where you can quote more accurate statements such as "Structural similarities to phosphoenol pyruvate enable glyphosate to bind to the substrate binding site of the EPSPS, inhibiting its activity and blocking its import into the chloroplast."  or "Glyphosate occupies the binding site on EPSPS for phosphoenol pyruvate, a substrate of EPSPS, by mimicking an intermediate state of the enzyme-substrates complex."http://ncwss.org/proceed/2006/abstracts/94.pdf

The main guy behind this "metal chelation" stuff is a retired emeretus (sp) pofessor of soil science from Purdue: Don Huber who is pushing this idea.  I went to his lecture in February, where he explained that all medical antibiotics work by chelating metals.  It is easy to call him a quack based on such proclamations.  Later I spend at least an hour with him socially and got to know a little about him, and convinced myself that he  does not understand basic chemistry or biochemistry.

This is further proof that most issues arise from the lack of chemistry understanding. You threw out a dissociation constant (totally different from association constant and lacking any conditions of its determination) without an explanation of its relevance to anything.  Getting the science and reality right does have repercussions. For example the big aquatic problem with roundup these days is because of the horrible added chemicals which are added (to improve sticking to the leaf and to extend patent protection I assume as well) (could these non 'chelators' cause drying?  I observe that global warming issues mostly arise from lack of understanding of chemistry, and in particular the "scientists" "against" global warming that I looked up, were mathematicians and physicists that clearly did hot understand basic chemistry, as far as I could determine.

I dont have  a dog in this fight and I really dont care.  I was just trying to be helpful and have better things to do than internet chit chat crap based on substituting word searches on google and an occasional one minute you tube video for an extensive understanding of reality.  Most issues lack a reality check. This one does . 

I will not respond any further to postings.

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Mots,
Thanks for the clarification.  The article from USDA-ARS is particularly informative, and (as you've pointed out) does not mention Mn chelation as a mechanism for the disrupting the synthesis of the EPSPS enzyme.  Although I would have expected the peer-reviewed journal that I quoted, Springer's  Current Microbiology, to be an accurate source of information, it is clear that some misinformation can be propagated through the scientific community through "quotes and soundbites" without thorough vetting.  

It is not my intent to debate chemistry and microbiology - I'm a hydrologist, not a microbiologist.  I do a fair bit of aquatic geochemistry in my profession (thus the skimming over of Kd - a lumped parameter that "implies" sorption, chelation, and/or complexation in soil but is not necessarily relevant to microbiology). 

I will point out that a number of journal articles discuss metal chelation by glyphosate as a potential factor (or cause) of toxicity to humans.  Those articles include a 2015 paper in Surgery Neurology International (available through NIH):

Metal chelation and inactivation of cytochrome P450 (CYP) enzymes (which contain heme) play important roles in the adverse effects of glyphosate on humans. A recent study on rats showed that both males and females exposed to Roundup® had 50% reduction in hepatic CYP enzyme levels compared with controls.[156] CYP enzyme dysfunction impairs the liver's ability to detoxify xenobiotics. A large number of chemicals have been identified as being porphyrinogenic.[77] Rossignol et al.[242] have reviewed the evidence for environmental toxicant exposure as a causative factor in autism, and they referenced several studies showing that urinary excretion of porphyrin precursors to heme is found in association with autism, suggesting impaired heme synthesis. Impaired biliary excretion leads to increased excretion of heme precursors in the urine, a biomarker of multiple chemical sensitivity syndrome.[77] We later discuss the ability of glyphosate to disrupt bile homeostasis, which we believe is a major source of its toxic effects on humans.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4392553/

 

The NIH article also states that there are multiple pathways by which glyphosate may be toxic to humans:

 

There are multiple pathways by which glyphosate could lead to pathology.[248] A major consideration is that our gut bacteria do have the shikimate pathway, and that we depend upon this pathway in our gut bacteria as well as in plants to supply us with the essential aromatic amino acids, tryptophan, tyrosine, and phenylalanine. Methionine, an essential sulfur-containing amino acid, and glycine, are also negatively impacted by glyphosate. Furthermore, many other biologically active molecules, including serotonin, melatonin, melanin, epinephrine, dopamine, thyroid hormone, folate, coenzyme Q10, vitamin K, and vitamin E, depend on the shikimate pathway metabolites as precursors. Gut bacteria and plants use exclusively the shikimate pathway to produce these amino acids. In part because of shikimate pathway disruption, our gut bacteria are harmed by glyphosate, as evidenced by the fact that it has been patented as an antimicrobial agent.[298].
So I think we may need to differentiate between what makes glyphosate an effective herbicide vs. what makes it toxic to human gut microbes and other microbes.  To be clear, other research papers denounce the effectiveness of glyphosate as an antimicrobial agent.  Or as an effective chelator.

Mots, I feel sufficiently chastised for seeking a "simple" explanation for glyphosate toxicity.  Thanks for setting me straight.  I'll stop repeating the claim that Mn chelation is the mechanism for the disrupting the synthesis of EPSPS.  Instead, I now understand that glyphosate binds to the phosphoenol pyruvate sites, and thus disrupts the synthesis of EPSPS.  I've lost a simple sound bite, but gained understanding, and I thank you for that, Mots.

It may be that Mn chelation by glyphosate is a factor in human toxicity.  I'm not qualified to debate that, nor do I enjoy these debates.  So I'll shut up about it. 

I would also like to say that "I don't have a dog in this fight", but perhaps I do.  I earned a lot of money a decade ago working as a hydrologic consultant for Monsanto, helping them acquire permits to mine elemental phosphorus for use in glyphosate and other products.  I also have an autistic 21-year old nephew living with me - he's a highly intelligent kid with a severe developmental disorder that affects socialization, executive function, motor coordination, anxiety, and other social functions.  It is heartbreaking to see a kind, intelligent, young man be so socially and developmentally "crippled".  I'm convinced that gut dysbiosis is a significant factor in autism spectrum disorder.  Glyphosate appears to be a significant factor in gut dysbiosis.

Some of the guilt that I feel for being part of the "system" of mining, environmental damage, glyphosate production, uranium extraction, etc. is assuaged by working on my 4-acre organic farm.  We make our own organic bone meal from local grass fed cattle, instead of using mined elemental phosphorus (for the essential "P" in N-P-K).   I buy non-GMO feed for my 112 chickens, at three times the cost of conventional feed.  We're using no till methods with lots of organic mulch.  We are pumping our water with solar power and using our diesel-powered tractor only when necessary.  One of my employees brings her 4-week old baby to work with her.  Although I still have one foot in my professional career, I'm moving away from the "system" and hope to bring my community along.  Perhaps local families eating fresh food from our farm will experience an increase in health and a reduction in autism rates.  (…and cancer, and diabetes, and…and…and…)   

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In the field of biochemistry EVERYTHING that dissolves in water chemically reacts with EVERYTHING else because touching by itself is a reaction, which can be "studied" by measuring, (the quoted "dissociation constant" is merely the second half of "touching" between two of anything that someone purposely put together in solution) and can generate a good contrived story if you malign conditions enough by selecting a limited set of components and conditions.  Thus, in a test tube or petri dish, you can make anything happen between any two things, by merely adjusting concentrations and types etc . This is why so much nonsense exists and why in my opinion so much so called science these days is meaningless bullshit and why I left the field…  I have seen so much real solid data on cancer cures over the years, for example, by "scientists" who contrive nonsensical conditions in a test tube or cell culture.  Some publish hundreds of papers showing reactions (more often than not, merely "touching") and extrapolating how that touching or even a forced reaction causes cancer, killing cancer, etc. without understanding the real system.  Economics is unmoored from reality by lack of reality checks.  So is most of science. 

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From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glyphosate#Discovery:

Glyphosate was first synthesized in 1950 by Swiss chemist Henry Martin, who worked for the Swiss company Cilag. The work was never published.[16]:1 Stauffer Chemical patented the agent as a chemical chelator in 1964 as it binds and removes minerals such as calcium, magnesium, manganese, copper, and zinc.[17]

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I hadn't heard the term "Old Friends" before, Sandpuppy, but perhaps a knowledge of them would help a person have a healthier diet?

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"The drive for absolute control leads to unanticipated forms of disorder."  Micheal Pollan
Dont mess with Old Friends

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Since I have shifted to organic and non-gmo food I find it hard to eat at restaurants.   It is now so obvious the industrial food stuffs are close to soylent green quality.   
The letters I wrote to my political representatives to urge them to ban gmo and its chemicals got not one response.   If our food is corrupted then why care about anything else?  Including voting.   Food is medicine.