That statistic is commonly cited, but it is based on studies with faulty methodology. Partly because feminist "researchers" counted women who merely regretted their sexual encounter the next day as being rape victims.
In my opinion, if you consent to do something with somebody, you cannot retract your consent the next day if it didn't go the way you wanted.
Gheez Pyranablade you discount the statistics then discount victims too? How utterly offensive, lets not go down this path.
AKGrannyWGrit
On the issue of consent there is an easy fix. I believe there is a book that can be bought. In it the parties to the act write the date, the agreement, the agreed positions and time limits. What else? The contract is then signed by witnesses.
To safeguard both parties the act should be witnessed by three, one each for the two parties and a third, preferably a stranger.
Their evidence could be corroborated with a video recording of the passionate event.
There! Fixed it for you.
Those measures would satisfy a court of law that both the spirit and the letter of the law were complied with. But what about the Court of Public Opinion?
To this end the video recordings would have to be placed on youtube for public scrutiny and comment.
I should imagine that there could be a graduate course offered at University so that suitably qualified opinion could be so sought on the issue of style, ethics and Aesthetics.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesthetics
These measures would no doubt raise the very disappointing standards that currently exists.
I await your approbation.
[quote=Arthur Robey]
On the issue of consent there is an easy fix. I believe there is a book that can be bought. In it the parties to the act write the date, the agreement, the agreed positions and time limits. What else? The contract is then signed by witnesses.
To safeguard both parties the act should be witnessed by three, one each for the two parties and a third, preferably a stranger.
Their evidence could be corroborated with a video recording of the passionate event.
There! Fixed it for you.
[/quote] Seriously Arthur? This would never work you. What you need is an app.
Both parties could then Video acknowledge consent prior to said, err, interaction. To make sure things are on the up and up, a license application and a small fee to cover the minimal cost of having a neutral third party review the consent tapes should work well.
Probably not a bad idea to have a mandatory short and long term insurance policy on a per event basis. The short term could cover court and attorneys costs in the event of a disagreement or change of heart subsequent to said event. Long-term coverage for the unplanned pregnancy…
Might as well move to Los Angeles…
Thank you for not embarrassing me by pointing out the obvious error.
The gender bias of the Stranger witness.
This requires considerable thought as are only two sexes. And we need an odd number to ensure impartiality.
The method I propose to overcome this issue is statistical. There will need to be a large number of witnesses so that a statistically significant departure from the mean can be obtained.
Therefore the romantic act would have to be done live in front of a large online audience. This should not be a problem in these days of reality TV.
Because Rape can and does occur in marriage, marriage would offer no sanctuary. Therefore Every liason would be obliged to be executed in the same fashion.
These laws would stimulate the economy and distract the body politic from other issues that need not concern them.
Well that is the sort of garbage you get when you allow free rein to your Left Brain.
The true answer lies in a balancing of the two brains. I know Rape when I see it.
Granny, you are exhibiting exactly the kind of PC censorship that has become so problematic.
Pyranablade is accurate in discounting those statistics, If you trace the origins of that oft quoted statistic, you will find it is not remotely accurate.
Broadening the definition of Rape to include 'day after regret' is what is truly offensive to the victims of actual sexual assault.
Of course any amount of campus rape is too much But how can you address an issue if you the start the discussion from a false premise?
Seriously Mememonkey you quote a government statistic that you found on the Internet and take it as gospel? Is it because the government says it is true or because it was found on the Internet that makes it true?
Secondly, how do KNOW what is "truly offensive to Actual victims of sexual assault"? What makes you qualified to speak on behalf of this group?
Thirdly, you state that "any amount of rape is too much" but then discount that statement by following it up with "how can you discuss an issue if you start it with a false premise"? Here is a novel idea rape is wrong and incorrect statistics don't change that fact in any way, shape or form.
Lastly, you blame me for "politically correct censorship that has become so broad" because I have found statements on this thread indifferent, and cavalier. I live in a state that has the highest percentage of rape in the nation. Where did I get the statistic, I it was a fundraising event for AWAIC (Abused a Women's Aid In Crisis). It seems to be alarming and inconceivable that there needs to be a discussion with young men about the dangers of having sex with drunk young women. This "problem" is a symptom of our collective moral degradation that makes this an issue at all. It not about he said, she said and crying wolf. And the article you referenced that downplays rape had an agenda and it wasn't the well being and protection of our daughters.
I find this discussion distasteful but There needs to be at least ONE female that says blaming our young women and complaining about PC correctness isn't a solution either. We are a nation suffering from pervasive moral decay, and yes the pendulum may have swung to an extreme, but as a woman I have no doubt that when a collapse comes no one will care about political correctness.
AKGrannyWGrit
Once the collapse sets in I would imagine that the punishment for rape will be rather swift…and severe.
Which will doubtless leave many a rapist grinning from ear to ear. Hopefully.
Granny,
Firstly, I fault you for politically correct censorship because that is what you have done here, by taking a single specific statement which was demonstrably factual and an opinion which is arguably common sense and then casting shame on the poster, while discouraging further discussion of his points.
This is not the only time you have behaved similarly I've noticed this in other threads. Not sure who made you moral arbiter here but I find your sanctimonious judgment off putting and counter productive to discussion.
Secondly, I originally was made aware of these bogus stats by listening to an in depth interview with the articulate and well informed feminist/philosopher Christina Hoff Summers. She clearly elucidated the study and origins of the one in five "stat" does that count because she's a woman?
I included an 'internet link to one article with a similar take' because that is the medium we are communicating with. Do a little research yourself, the stat is bullshit, before assailing me with Internet epistemology claims.
You could certainly have raised your concerns, voiced your opinion while being respectful of others or discouraging conversation.
It is this dynamic of shouting down stuff you don't like which is what is so offensive about the whole social justice warrior movement that the OP discussed.
Finally, the notion that diminishing actual rape by conflating it with 'regret the next day; is truly offensive, is an opinion. While I have not been the victim of rape, I have certainly regretted encounters the morning after, as such I am qualified to voice an opinion on this subject, regardless of my gender and I don't need your permission or approval to do so.
mememonkey
great post, waterdog.
what was your experience in talking about degrowth in that project, and what were the sticking points?
personal conflict with other member(s)?
people didn't believe your views were accurate, or were too much of a "downer"?
people were too invested with their ego in continuing their present course of actions?
Mememonkey, Clearly you have me at a disadvantage as it appears you are an articulate college graduate and I have a high school education so I am not as adept and concise in writing as I would like to be. So I find defending myself against your accusations difficult.
You called me, what was the name, oh yes, sanctimonious and you may be right. This is what I know. I am the only one of 5 women in a group who still regularly posts here. The demographic of the site is predominately male and I think there needs to be, at least on occasion, be a female who posts and offers an alternative view. Ever wonder why these other, more articulate than I, ex-members, except one, are no longer members? It was precisely due to threads like this one. And if the viewpoint is 180 degrees different from the norm watch out, and prepare to get blasted. The tone of this thread has been, from my perspective, oh the poor young men they have to deal with the horrible Politically Correct and then of course the drunk women who change their minds and accuse the young men wrongfully. Statistics are cited, articles posted and who stands up for the young women besides myself? Group think has a specific message and it's not stepping up to stand-up-for our daughters. Tree beard explained the problem rather eloquently. Thank you Treebeard for offering some balance.
Here is the issue, for me this is an emotional issue and you can site statistics and offer articles to say rape isn't such a big deal. But I could tell you of real life stories of brutality, rape, pain, suicide and on and on but I won't go there, just know it's a HUGE issue.
So yes I may be "politically incorrect", "sanctimonious", and "shout down stuff I don't like" and will continue to do so because I represent a demographic that is very seldom represented on this site. Condescension won't deter me and just maybe my morality needs to be heard. My posts only reflect what people say, I do not call names or attack people's character. I hope this horse dies soon as it seems we are continuing to beat it after it has died.
Time2Help I quite agree with you, post collapse, things will be different. God help us all.
AKGrannyWGrit
I would be happy to let this issue die. It is clear you are arguing from a purely emotional perspective as you keep misrepresenting the points I'm addressing.
I can't however let the above statement go uncorrected.
Nobody is trying to prove rape is not a big deal. The issue was/is not " is rape bad horrible evil?". the issue was the use of a demonstrably fraudulent statistic to frame a discussion.
Women do not have a monopoly on concern for our daughters or disgust with sexual assault. To my mind addressing those very real, awful problems starts with an honest appraisal of the scope of the problem, (hint it's not 1 in 4) and defining the problem i.e What constitutes a legitimate definition of sexual assault?
I would add, that we probably do not differ greatly in our view of the decline of morality in our narcissistic industrialized consumerist society. I find myself often agreeing with you. And I generally concur with treebeard as well, although, I think he misconstrued a very real issue and observation Collum made in this case.
You have a legitimate perspective, my suggestion would be to represent it without 'shouting other people down'. that is not a gender issue. It is one of common courtesy.
As to rough justice for rapists in the future, I'm all for it, unless it's the current crop of nut job social justice crybully warriors on campus that are meting it out.
mememonkey
The denigration of intimacy between men and women is just one of the many casualties of the materialistic and reductionist thinking in our culture in general. I know, or at least hope the discussion about contracts was tongue and cheek. Obviously, two people who have any doubts about one another should not be sharing that sacred space together. Casual sex is like casual banking or casual energy use or casual environmental exploitation, where anything goes and usually does. Its destructive and exploitative because all are practiced unconsciously. Our bodies are sacred and precious and we should not being sharing them with those who do not feel the same way. Both genders are equal participants in this unconscious behavior, unfortunately the negative consequences are much more severe and fall predominately on women, but not entirely as many here have vigorously pointed out.
Of course one can always argue, that such a point of view is impractical. The argument can be made that such activities have been going on since the beginning of time and will never change. I would argue that it's just as impractical as solving our other three "E" problems, because they all stem from the same distortion in our thinking. But the heat is being turned up, we are being pushed into a corner, continue to evolve or face exponentially more dire consequences. If we cannot escape our exploit or be exploited level of awareness, all really is for naught.
Reflector - thanks for your interest. About 150 people attend the most recent One Valley Prosperity Project meeting. That's a lot for a city of 5,000 (county of 15,000).
The sticking points (as I see them) were similar to what you suggested. I'm sure many of you have seen this in conversations with groups large and small. These sticking points will need to be overcome in my community (and our nation) for us to face the future boldly and build collective resiliency.
First, during a breakout session on "Managing Growth, How we grow and change", I suggested that growth might not continue. I was completely misunderstood by some in the working group and assumed to be anti-growth. I was told "You're just like that guy" who had just stormed out in anger about how growth has spoiled our mountain town. Instead, I was trying to make the point that if families cannot prosper on their current income, they won't be able to prosper in the future [given what's coming], and by focusing on money as the only metric of prosperity, we were in danger of not prospering. We should think outside the box, I suggested, and try to determine what it is that families are spending their money on, and provide those services/commodities (together, as a community) when the money is not there.
As Reflector suggested
- organizers (especially) were looking at the future through the lens of the past. By the time this meeting took place, the organizers and most participants were too invested in the theme of managing growth to even consider de-growth.
At the end of the 2.5 hour event, the Project was soliciting people to join one of several local working groups. I didn't sign up at the time (I've got a lot on my plate, and was hesitant to commit), but later, I considered what really matters (i.e., community resiliency) and sent an email to the leaders and talked with one of the lead organizers about joining the Managing Growth working group. (Other choices were Affordable Housing, Public Lands, and Transportation.) The organizer's eyes rolled back in his head when I mentioned peak oil and its implications for de-growth in our remote, predominantly tourism-based economy.
Notes to self:
Pun intended. Without clearly specifying axioms up front all argument devolves into nonsense. Case in point the current politics. Babble away!
Here is a respected source that supports the 1 in 5 estimate: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6308a1.htm
Reporting Period: January–December, 2011.
Description of System: NISVS is a national random-digit–dial telephone survey of the noninstitutionalized English- and Spanish-speaking U.S. population aged ≥18 years. NISVS gathers data on experiences of sexual violence, stalking, and intimate partner violence among adult women and men in the United States by using a dual-frame sampling strategy that includes both landline and cellular telephones. The survey was conducted in 50 states and the District of Columbia; in 2011, the second year of NISVS data collection, 12,727 interviews were completed, and 1,428 interviews were partially completed.
Results: In the United States, an estimated 19.3% of women and 1.7% of men have been raped during their lifetimes; an estimated 1.6% of women reported that they were raped in the 12 months preceding the survey. The case count for men reporting rape in the preceding 12 months was too small to produce a statistically reliable prevalence estimate. An estimated 43.9% of women and 23.4% of men experienced other forms of sexual violence during their lifetimes, including being made to penetrate, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and noncontact unwanted sexual experiences. The percentages of women and men who experienced these other forms of sexual violence victimization in the 12 months preceding the survey were an estimated 5.5% and 5.1%, respectively.