Does Your Plan B Include a Second Place to Live If Plan A Doesn’t Work Out?

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Sand puppy Asked:
“How would a suburban middle aged guy start looking for a small subsistence farm?”
FWIW: I am not a farmer (yet), but I am in the process. I purchased 100 acre farm (mostly forestry) last year. Here is what I looked for in Property

  1. Land in a moderate climate, Not too hot, not too cold, but gets ample rainfall, but mimimal snowfall. While going north that land may be cheaper, but the risks to crop losses are higher. (ie late or early frost can be a killer). If you plan to be food self-reliant, you want to avoid risks. While, the weather in the far south is better, you also are higher risks to infestations. Winter frosts will kill off a lot of bugs as well has shutting down plant dieseases/fungi.
  2. Land that isn’t on the side of a cliff. Terraced farming can be a PITA, especially if you need plan to use some farming equipment (small tractor for example). Some slope is acceptible, but it shouldn’t be too steep, where you’ll be concerned about safety, operating a small tractor.
  3. Land that isn’t on a main road, but not on a dirt road. If your on a main road odds are that you have intruders, especially if they can spot your crops from the road. While Dirtgravel roads aren’t a show stopper they can be a pain.
  4. Land that isn’t in a flood zone, or downstream of a damn or levy.
  5. Land that has a good wood lot. You likely need wood as a construction resource, and for fuel (heating/cooking). Deep woods can also make a good barrier to hide your farm from vagrants looking for resources.
  6. Land that has a well, and electrical power. You don’t want to buy property that does have sufficent ground water available, for personal use as well as for irrigation if you need it in a drought. Ideally having power is a valuable resource while its available. A new well can cause $10K (depending on how deep it needs to be) and its always a gamble that the site choosen turns out to be a dud (low flow, brackish, or dry hole). if you have to decided between two properties, and the one with the well is more expensive. choose the lot with the well. If it has a well get the water tested.
  7. Land that has retail stores available. You don’t want to have to drive an hour or more just to pick up groceries or a replacement part at a hardware store. Ideally the spot should have some stores that you commonly use within 30-minute drive or less.
  8. Land that is zoned for acraculture. Its very likely you have problems raising crops & livestock on property than is zone for residential.Make sure that you can also file for a Ag. Land use so our taxes will be very low.
  9. Make sure you do a perk test and get a septic permit before signing off. There are times when the land won’t perk and you won’t be able to get a septic permit. You can put the request for the perk test in the purchase agrement, so that you can back out if it does perk. The Perk test is under $1K (Mine was about $600).
  10. Option: check for internet access & phone access. While its available the internet is an invaluable tool. When you need look up replacement parts. When I looked for property the only electronic requirment was being able to get a reliable internet service. I don’t care about TV or land phone lines.
  11. Land that wasn’t near by any military facility or nuclear power plant, and wasn’t downwind of an potential primary/secondary targets in a nuclear war. Even if there is no nuclear war, during a collapse there are likely to be a few nuclear power plants.
    Sand Puppy asked:
    "How much land is it reasonable for a single family to farm? "
    I would recommend 20 acres, but with at least 10 acre wood lot. FWIW: I was looking for about 50 to 60 acres but ended up going for 100 acres because I could find a a 50 acre lot that met my criterea. I am presuming that this farm will be for self-reliance and not becoming a farmer for income. If you plan to become a professional farmer you need more land, or become a tenant farmer (where you rent farm land from a land owner) I suppose you can get by with less than 20 acres, but when you start looking a smaller lots its possible that you have more close by neighbors than you likely want to deal with during a collapse. In my opinion, it will be difficult to know how people will react in a crisis, Even the nicest person can turn into a monster when they become desperate. I don’t think there is a single parent that would not consider killing someone for there resources if means survival for their children.
    Generally people living on small lots aren’t interested in being self-reliant. If you find a 5 to 10 acre lot and you see all your neigbors with gardens, fruit trees, chickens, etc, you probably do OK, but if the neighbors have boats and other recreational vehicles, manicured lawns, shiny new truck/SUV, its probably not the best place to set up a homestead.
    Sand Puppy asked:
    “What if we are thinking a couple of horses, chickens and cows?”
    I would avoid larger animals. Horses and cattle require a lot of time and can be expensive to feed over the winter. If you want to be self-reliance for horse/cattle feed during the winter, you need to have a sizeble field to grow hay/corn and have the equipment to harvest it. Harvesting equipment can be a crusher $$$. I think even a small, used, beat-up hay baler or corn harvester will run you $30K or more (althought I haven’t researched pricing in detail). A small, used farm tractor will can cost under $10K, but you also need to purchase tooling for it (Cultivator, plow, seed/fertializer spreader, etc). Another risk is that you can be injured by a horse or cattle. Some times they get spooked and will attack, or they just stumble and end up injuring you by accident. My guess is you considering horses for draft animals. In my opinion a small tractor is the way to go. If you’re worried about fuel, you can buy a 500-1000 gallon tank and probably store 5 to 10 years of fuel for the tractor. if your property has a wood lot, the tractor can run on producer gas using a gasifer (partially burns wood and creates producer gas which can run a tractor).
    My recommendation is to stick with small livestock like chickens, turkeys, and rabbits for a source for eggs & meat. If you must have a source of Milk, Goats are probably the better option than cows. I believe you can also get miniture cows, but I don’t know anything about them. The only issue is that you need to keep small animals in pens to protect them from preditors (hawks, foxes, raccoons, possums, snakes, etc).
    I would also recommend you consider planting perennials (fuit trees, berry bushes, nut trees). Fruits and berries can usually be canned. Apples, peachs, Pears, Cherries, Blueberries, Strawberries, Grapes, blackberries, etc.
    Last I would start looking this season,even if you don’t/can’t buy land this year. I took me a while (4 years to find property that met my criteria). First I started looking for areas that are suitable. I also looked at regional demographics (age group, number of people per square mile, income levels), taxes, availablity of retail stores. I made a list of area’s I though would be work wihile and I drove to them all to see what it was like. Then I started looking for properties for the regions I though would work.I searched online and use online satillite maps (googe maps) to get a idea of property (was it on a steep slope, was it near a trailer park, was it on or next to a main road). I was able to reject about 80% of the properties I found online by looking at the satillite maps. When I had a about 10 properties that I thought would work for me, I would take a trip to visit them. Unfortuanately I ended up rejecting them because of one reason or another. (on a narrow dirt road), had a wood bridge to cross, in a flood zone No power, I did this for about 4 years before finding a property. I am telling you this so you understand that finding the right property isn’t easy and it probably take you a while.
    One last issue: Perhaps you be-able to find property quicker than I did. I was lookig for property without a home or that had an old one, that I could tare down and replace. I think that its likely the cost of energy will soar and I didn’t want end up something that costs a small fortune in energy costs in the future.
    I am going with new home construction that will be energy efficient as well as low maintanance. I rather spend money on a new energy efficient, low maintainance home now that run into problems when energy prices are much higher and a devalved dollar.I option for a low maintaince home that uses modern durable materials. I really don’t want to be replacing a roof, painting the exterior when I am 60+ years old. Sooner or later there will be crisis, and I don’t want to spend time and effort on home maintenance we I can use that time for growing food, or other more essential tasks.
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Older haying equipment is generally actually fairly cheap. $2000-3000 buys a pretty decent used square baler to use with a small (25-35hp) tractor, sometimes you can find one under $1000 that’s useable. Hay, along with wood, is a proto-solar panel and an incredible asset to the homesteader and there are many ways to harvest it. A scythe and a pitchfork and a handcart or donkey cart will bring in more than you think, if it is a good scythe and you are fit. Probably quite doable to harvest 2 or 3 acres of loose hay this way which would keep 2-3 horses or cows. One moderately productive cow produces 2-3 gallons of rich milk per day, plenty to live on for a large family and plenty left over to trade.
As for a “corn harvester” you really don’t need such a thing to farm on a small scale. Back in the day corn was dried in the field harvested by hand, shucked and stored in wood and wire cribs. In short once you are farming in a pre-1970 manner there are a variety of very cost-effective technologies you can use, ranging from mechanized tools to pure hand tools. The only thing you really can’t do by hand is plow and harrow land. Gotta have a draft animal or a tractor for that job.
Making a living farming in today’s economy is damn hard. But making enough food to live on is actually easy, if you have the time to do it. I’ve been farming in my current spot for 12 years.

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TechGuy Said:

I am going with new home construction that will be energy efficient as well as low maintanance. I rather spend money on a new energy efficient, low maintainance home now that run into problems when energy prices are much higher and a devalved dollar.I option for a low maintaince home that uses modern durable materials. I really don't want to be replacing a roof, painting the exterior when I am 60+ years old. Sooner or later there will be crisis, and I don't want to spend time and effort on home maintenance we I can use that time for growing food, or other more essential tasks.
TechGuy, I would love to hear your ideas on constructing an energy efficient, low maintenance home, if you have some to share. I am living in a home that seems to have constant maintenance issues (not sure of that's just my house, or every house!) that suck up my time and $. It is also larger and less energy efficient than what I'd like. Like you, I've also thought that I'd like to correct that problem now, while still possible, so I can spend less time and $ on maintaining a house, as I get older, and use that time and money for more important things (like learning to grow food, etc.). I've searched for pre-existing homes on real estate sites, but I'm not seeing anything that strikes me as "energy efficient and low maintenance"! And that makes me wonder if new construction is the better approach to achieving those goals. Of course, cost is also an issue. Thanks in advance.
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sand_puppy wrote:
I am sometimes surprised by finding out how many farmers are here at PP. I would like some advice. How would a suburban middle aged guy start looking for a small subsistence farm? What factors do you zero in on when considering a property? Location? Water? Soil? Neighbors? How much land is it reasonable for a single family to farm? 5 Acres? 10? What if we are thinking a couple of horses, chickens and cows? I would love to hear thoughts on this.
Bytesmith's reply here is very good. "Neighbours, neigbours, and neighbours. And availability of work-trade labour.
...Knowledge and relationships. Those two are "gotta haves." The rest can be fixed."
That's right on the money.
I would add that a town that has a history of thriving as a farming community before oil, or, better yet, before coal, would have the best chance of offering you the kind of future you are after.
How to begin? I'd second that the Wwofer program is a great idea. Another is to just get to know the farming community in your area / town of interest. Go to farmers markets, have conversations, taste the foods growers produce, figure out what draws you in. Commodity farmers generally never engage with the public in this way but small-scale growers usually do. In fact, while I can't speak for all small-scale farmers, I'd say that most of us do what we do, at least in part, out of a desire to improve our communities and make the world a better place, and are usually eager to share our passion with others (if you catch us on a good day).
If you try to use your money to build a homestead fortress without experience the chances of misallocation of resources or poor decisionmaking is high for countless reasons. There are really no shortcuts. If you want to learn anything complex and worthwhile, including farming, you need to be open to learning and willing to pay your dues. Those dues I believe are payable in money, time, and physical / emotional suffering or some cocktail of all three. You may be able to adjust the mixture of the three ingredients to suit your situation, but you don't get out of paying your dues.
Presenting yourself in a generally open and friendly way, and offering to come help on a farm free of charge, or as a rank and file laborer, and actually following through on the offer could be the beginning of a relationship with a farmer that you would like to learn from. Don't be too emphatic about it, just offer to help with whatever needs doing for a day, and be respectful of the farmers' time and professional status. Even if you are given a pitchfork and left alone to fork manure for four hours, you are actually getting somewhere.
I wouldn't lead with this opener "I want to buy land right next to you and set up a similar farm." In many cases farmers are somewhat jealous about their market share. In fact even amongst established farmers in my town we usually try to avoid stepping on each others' toes when we can, but an outsider who comes in with a stated intention to start competing with local operations for sales would be poorly received and have to work harder to be received as a colleague.
I also wouldn't lead with this opener "I believe that industrial civ. is about to collapse and I want to build my farmette / homestead / rural fortress right now in order to not die when it happens." Even if this is true in your case, this is not the conversation to necessarily have on your first date. Get to know the cast of characters in your farming community a little at a time before baring your soul. Many small farmers are more informed than you might think and will gladly engage you on the subject of Civilization in Crisis. However many of us (myself included) quickly weary of abstract alarmist talk that saps our time and energy and draws us away from daily work that is both fulfilling and economically necessary. The easiest path, I believe, is by participating in that ordinary daily work in whatever way suits you best, and in asking little for it, you may be given much.
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I meant to publish this here but sent it to another place.
So, here it is again. Sorry.
Obviously after Plan A plan B is a necessity. However, one may be TIED down to the land in either plan.

So, I created Plan C. I recently purchased
a used good 30 foot Motor Home perfect for myself and my family. This Plan C allows us great mobility, to wherever, whenever for either a new land situation or to just "get away" and "live on the road" as so many already do.
But gas and propane might present problems. Solar panels might help. Thus, Plan D: buy horses and/or motorcycles, unless there are border guards at each state's boundaries. Then just roam around on one state only.
I hear that for $10 a senior citizen or "honored elder" can get a pass to the extensive National Recreational Parks system.
Saludos, Ken
Meanwhile, check out my Plan B. 7 minute drone video:
Preview YouTube video Costa Rica AerialCosta Rica Aerial
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KennethPollinger wrote:
I meant to publish this here but sent it to another place. So, here it is again. Sorry. Obviously after Plan A plan B is a necessity. However, one may be TIED down to the land in either plan.
So, I created Plan C. I recently purchased
a used good 30 foot Motor Home perfect for myself and my family. This Plan C allows us great mobility, to wherever, whenever for either a new land situation or to just "get away" and "live on the road" as so many already do.
But gas and propane might present problems. Solar panels might help. Thus, Plan D: buy horses and/or motorcycles, unless there are border guards at each state's boundaries. Then just roam around on one state only.
I hear that for $10 a senior citizen or "honored elder" can get a pass to the extensive National Recreational Parks system.
Saludos, Ken
Meanwhile, check out my Plan B. 7 minute drone video:

No, you cannot camp in National parks for $10/year as a senior. There is an inexpensive pass for Day Useage, only.
You cannot rely on roaming the county in your RV as many localities, including the one by me, are suffering greatly from the onslaught and have been making laws to curtail it. SO, no parking on the side of the road or in parking lots overnight, if at all. Etc… There has been alot of illegal dumping of black water, grey water and trash from travellers.
Think about it, if campers contribute nothing to the community and in fact are a drain on the community, why would communities welcome them ? Do you feel that trash service, clean water, sewage should be provided to you for free ? Do you think that local taxpayers may want to park at the beach that they pay to maintain themselves once in a while ?
Sorry for the rant, but do be informed, there is a backlash and you shuld not expect to be welcome in other peoples back yard as an intinerant camper. And, as times get worse, I would expect this sentiment to increase and for RV travellers to become even more unwelcome. Now, if you are in a paid campgroud where they services are provided for you , that is great. But, in many areas, like around here, make that reservation about 6 months ahead of time…

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erikandrus wrote:
If you try to use your money to build a homestead fortress without experience the chances of misallocation of resources or poor decision making is high for countless reasons. There are really no shortcuts.
Amid a lot of other good stuff, this really stood out for me. I was an "armchair prepper" for years, planning, studying, buying stuff I thought I'd need, attending meetings with like-minded people (meaning, they were all also "armchair preppers"), etc. Almost everything I assumed or planned for turned out to be wrong! If you're going to plan, do it while hoeing potatoes. If you're going to read up on how to survive a crash, get an iPod and listen to talking books while milking. If you're going to buy stuff, just walk away until the feeling passes, unless you really need it for what you need to do in the next growing season. If you're going to attend meetings, make sure they are with people who are actually doing what you want to do, not people who want to do what you want to do. Otherwise, you're just part of the problem, not part of the solution. :-) And with that said, I've got to get out to the greenhouse before 7,000 baby plants die…
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Very good information on the “farmette” from lots of experienced people.
Thank you all.

I can see the curse of the intuitive introvert who prefers to ponder the future than actually pull the weeds and shovel the dirt.

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Pinecarr asked:
“TechGuy, I would love to hear your ideas on constructing an energy efficient, low maintenance home, if you have some to share.”
I determined that trying to retrofit an existing home would be terribly difficult. Standard homes leak a lot of air and also leak a lot of energy. To retrofit an existing home into a tight home would mean it would have to be gutted. The costs for demo and rebuild would probably cost more than just starting from scratch.

  1. Home needs to be air tight so that it leaks very little air. In normal homes the air leaks through every crevice and opening. Think openings for water/electrical, joints between wall sheathing, and the roof (eaves and ridge vent). A tight home will have every joint & openning taped and or caulked. Instead of using standard roofing design (joists with plywood and vents) a tight home will use SIP panels (rigid foam sandwiched between two sheets of plywood). With SIP roof construction there is no need for internal roof venting. After a a home framing & exterior taped/cauled is completed a blower test is performed to find any remaining leaks. Theses are addressed before the interior work (ie drywall) is started.
  2. 2x6 Wall advanced wall construction with external rigid foam insulation to get the Wall R rating near R-30. Huber now makes Insulated wall sheathing that integrates, rigid foam insulation with OSB that is water resistant and protected with a surface membrane. For wall cavity insulation I am going with Roxul, but it common to use spray foam. I am going with Roxul becuase it easy to remove if you need to do maintance on it and its hydrophobic. Soft/Opencell spray foam is like a sponge and will absorb/hold water (ie condensation/pipe leak). The rigid/closedcell spray foam is nearly impossible to remove if you need to do work (ie fix a pipe, electrical work, etc). Rigid spray foam also release very toxic fumes in a fire. Roxul is completely fire inert. I would advise against going with a passive house (double stud construction), since it turns out a lot of passive home are running into condensation problems causing mold and rot. When using 2x6 “Advanced wall construction” the studs are 24" on centers instead of the standard 16". this helps reduce thermal bridging and reduces material costs.
  3. Energy efficient and low maintaince fireglass windows. Fireglass windows are maintaince free since they do not rot, decay, crack, like wood or vinyl windows do. Marvin windows provide the best fireglass windows for you buck.
    4, Hydronic radiating heating. basically a set of PEX tubing run in your floors. The PEX tubing is either installed under the subfloor, or on top of the subfloor using a gypcrete pour (providing thermal mass) or using thermal/warmboard (plywood laminated with aluminium foil to spread the heat better). The advantage is that Radiant hydronic system can provide heat more efficient than standard baseboard heating. Standard baseboard heating requires high water temperatures (about 160F) and uses thermal air convection to distribute heat. Another advantage of Radiate heating is that it couples well with solar thermal panels, since hydronic radiate heat can work as low as 80F. Since Radiant heating is in your floors there are no radiators that get in the way (collecting dust, blocked by furniture, geting bumped into, etc).
  4. Using a fiber cement (hardie board) for outside cladding. A fiber cement cladding provide a 20 year no-maintanence guarentee. (No paint since the pigment is mixed in with the cement). Does not warp/ crack like wood and vinyl does. Behind the outside cladding there should be a rainscreen using furring strips so that if any water gets behind the exterior cladding that air can get behind it and dry it out. At the top and bottom are vents with bugscreens to prevent bugs from getting under the cladding. Brick and stuco are other options, but have disadvantages. If there is a water problem (a leak somwhere) its going to be a PITA to repair. With Hardie board you can just remove the planks to get access where you need to.
  5. Using a Energy recovery Ventillator (ERV). In a tight home you need to provide a mechanical way to circulate air to remove stale air from your home. and ERV has a efficient heat exchanger that either warms the incoming air (or cool in summer) using the air that is being exhausted from inside your home.
  6. Using Composite trim board for exterior trim that can prone to weathering (Wood trim paint will peel, crack when exposured to excessive water or sun). Composite Trim can cost significantly more than standard exterior wood trim. Perhaps use it in the difficult spots (ie near the roof line) that are a PITA to paint, replace.
  7. Metal roof instead of shingles. A metal roof will usually last 50 years and a shingle roof typically last about 20 years. Odds are that the metal roof will outlast you. The metal roof is attached to the roof using furring strips so there is an air gap underneath. The air gap is used with a ridge vent to help remove heat via convection as well as remove any moisture.
  8. Thermal gaped headers for doorways/windows. For wall openining a header is placed above so handle the forces applied above the openning. Typicall a pair of 2x6 or 2x8 boards are used to for the header. This creates a large thermal bridge. To reduce thermal bridging in headers, a piece of rigid foam is place in between (creating a sandwich). This also can apply to vertical support beams. Typically when several 2x6 2x4s are ganged together they are fastened togethet to form a solid square or rectanglar beam. Instead the internal stud should be rotated to create a I-beam or channel so that insulation can be packed to reduce thermal bridging.
  9. Applying spray moisture barrier and external insulation to the foiundation walls. For the Foundation walls: apply a spray membrane to keep water and mosture out. Concrete is partially water permible. Rigid foam boards can be attached to the external side to reduce thermal bridging. For the floor, a layer of gravel should be used under the moisture barrier (plastic sheeting). Gravel does not wick water like sand and soil does. On top of moisture barrier a layer of rigid foam is used as a thermal barrier. The floor concrete is poured on top of the ridge foam. Also consider installing a drainage system around your fondation. I plan to add a drywell to incase the drainage pipe become clogged. I can lower a submerible pump to the drywell if needed.
  10. Using mini-splits for cooling. This type of system can be more costly to install depending on the size and layout of your home, but the advantage is that you only have to cool the rooms you are using where as a force air system has to be sized to cool the entire home. I dislike forced air because they tend to accumulate dust, mold, rodent and insect droppings. With mini-splits you run refrigent lines to the extenal compressor instead of air ducting. Personally I am not a big fan of AC cooling but will install it for guests and family. You can use Mini-splits for both heating & cooling (via heat pump) but I am concerned about the long term stability of the grid. I don’t want to be reliant on grid power for heating, especially since I am relocating to a semi-rural area.
    Obviously you don’t have to use all of the above method. Probably the most important is building a tight house with a low leakage and walls that are well insulated.
    Here are some ideas I am also using to be self-reliant:
  11. External Wood boiler for secondary heating source. I don’t want install a wood boiler inside of my house because I don’t want to deal with bringing in wood and removing ash, as well as eliminating the risk of a fire caused by the wood boiler. I will also be using the external boiler for a workshop (so the boiler will handle at least two buildings). I probably will also add a greenhouse and and tie it into the woodboiler loop. (I’ll need to do further reseach and experimentation on this option).
  12. Using Propane for Domestic Hot water and alternative heating source for heating. I will also be using propane for cooking in case the power is out. I prefer not to have to fire up the wood boiler everytime I need hot water. Propane will provide three options: Domestic hot water (when the wood boiler isn’t running). Hydronic radiating heating (When wood boiler isn’t running) and cooking. I suspect my daily use of propane would be low and propane can be stored indefinantly.
  13. Solar thermal as another alternative heat source for heating and DHW. That said Hydronic solar heating isn’t a turnkey system. It only works when the sun is shinning. In the summer you have to worry about sagnation (when the panels produce excessive heat that you have no means to deal with it). I likely will need to build a custom solar shade system to avoid the staganation problem since I wasn’t able to find a commerical option that I thought would work for my needs (maybe better options are available now or in the future). You also need to install a buffer tank to smooth out the thermal panel output (ie too low when clouds passby or too much when the output is greater than demand). I think a solar thermal system is going to require a lot of fiddling/tuning to work well. For now my primary focus will be on Propane/wood boiler and then tinker with solar thermal as a side project. I’ll put in the plumbing lines for solar thermal during construction. so its ready if I choose to move forward.
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My regular house was a compromise, as I had to stay in this area at the time( child custody realy ties ones hands). It is 2 1/2 acres, in a neighborhood, relatively close to urban areas that have alot of people. SO, certainly not very secure in case of a sudden, long term scenario. But, also out of the city for short term riots, etc… it would be very safe. For most realistic scenarios, it will be great
Anyway, I do small scale homesteading and can say that even an elder like myself can provide all my food needed, by hand, with little trouble. And, I mean ALL food, not just fruits and veggies. Just need a shovel and a garden fork. Wheelbarrow is handy for stall cleaning. Old sheets make good burden cloth to carry trimming to animals. A family could be fed here with others pitching in to help.
Canning equipment is good to have. A rocket stove gets hot enough to boil water to cook and to run a steam canner, easy. Do not know if it can handle a pressure canner though.
I have shoulder and neck issues, so the appliance I most want to have around for as long as possible is the clothes washer. But, if I had to, I could agitate and rub by stepping into a tub and wash it that way.
The other “needed” things to have are for heat and water in this location. So wood stove to heat space, to heat hot water, to cook food. If the house is small enough, and tight enough, gathered wood may do. But, right now, I use about 1 cord a year, and that needs saws and axes. With a well at 250ft, good luck hand pumping enough for a garden. Roof rainwater catchment in a serious way would be best for this location. Then, let it gravity feed to garden and can carry to house if needed. So, then also, no power is needed to pump.
Yes, when you live in a place and are doing it, then you see more of what you do need, and dont need.
Transportation when out of town means that if there was ever a long term SHTF, and you were past security issues, you may need people power to get somewhere and back, and here that means a 6 mile walk with 2400ft of elevation change. SO, you may want decent shoes and pack to trade that goat milk cheese for a new shovel head… It is not a bad walk at all, especially thru the woods and off the roads, I have done it, it is pretty. There and back with shopping down in a day.

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Plan B is for when something happens.
So, my house is plan B for alot of my family, and I prepare by having places to sleep, both my living room couches are futons, and I have extra bedding and pillow, let alone the camping equipment. I have extra bed space for about 10, not counting sleeping bags and the camper. I have a few extra jackets, could use more. And, I have extra food. This would be called into play for an immediate neighborhood problem, ie., a tree falls on a neighbors house, to something happening to family, like they lose a job, their house burns down, their area becomes unsafe from riots, etc…
Plan B for me is the same going the other way, I could land at a family members house if mine burns down, they raise taxed enough to make me homeless, I get hurt, or some other disaster.
If it is an evacuation type disaster ( i have been evacuated twice), I would load animals into the back of the truck, hook up the small camper, and if time, add things into the camper. I would then be on someones property, or the fair grounds, that they open up for a local disaster, or if things look long term, I drive to my family members house. SO my house is their plab b, and theirs is my plan B.

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TechGuy, thanks for your informative response to my question re your ideas for constructing an energy efficient, low maintenance home! Really impressive! And what a smart investment in your future, too.
Maybe down the road you can share the story about how you approached building your home, and the results you achieve, in Adam’s new Sustainable Living column. It’s inspiring to see how folks here are designing innovative solutions to meet the challenge of living more sustainably.
Good luck!

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I have done the retrofit on an existing home, not too difficult, and also know what is needed as I live this way. YMMV. This is an alternate viewpoint from someone already living this way.
Hydronic heating is expensive to install and requires propane and electric to run, or a wood boiler, anyways expensive specialized things. So, not good for SHTF. I have found that on a sunny day, my house gets plenty of passive heat. When it is rainy or snowing, I light a fire in the woodstove ( NOT a wood fired boiler). My wood stove is very energy efficient (first thing I changed out when I bought the house). I changed the attached porch on the east side of the house. The southeast part of it I walled off, and changed its roofing to Clear panels, and it is my greenhouse ( it has a sliding door straight south and all windows to the east. This room is 8’ x 16’, or thereabouts. So, when the sun is out, I open a door and allow heat from here to warm the house, in addition to the direct solar gain from my 2 south facing sliding glass doors. When I replaced the sliding glass doors, I made sure to NOT get low E coated, as I want solar gain thru them. So, there is heat. I am presently needing to replace my worn out flooring, so I will do slate to add more thermal mass to the main room.
Cooling is provided by grape vines I planted that shade the south facing sliders in the summer. That, and I added 3 skylights upstairs, so on summer nights, open the downstairs sliders, open the upstairs skylights and the chimney effect cools the house off.
Other things done to hold in heat : insulated the cripple wall, the area between the foundation and the floor of the house. This was using cut out pieces of foam insulation board, foamed in. The vents to the crawlspace in the cripple wall were sealed off at this time. Also under the house, the dirt was sealed off totally, a strong vapor barrier that covers the dirt under the house and is sealed to the foundation on the edges. These things make the house have a “conditioned crawlspace” . This did alot to make the house more comfortable, much more than adding insulation to the walls would have. Windows were replaced ( they were broken and worn out anyways) Caulking/foam was done around windows and doors. I have the materials to make “warm windows” curtains, but have not done it yet. The house is very cozy now, keeps in enough heat but not too much to need an air to air recovery ( powered) ventilation. This house is a story and a half design, so air from the great room easily goes up to the bedrooms, no power needed.
I have solar hot water, this gives alot of heat most of the year. I used to run a loop in the winter thru the wood stove, but gave that was too much trouble for the gain. That and my solar hot water works with no pump needed, it thermosyphons, as the solar panels for it are below the house, right below the deck. There is about 2 ft of elevation gain from the top of the panels to the tank. This solar hot water is closed loop with expensive heat ransfer tank and long pipe runs. The wood stove loop needed a pump, which used electric. I may add a separate, simple wood stove loop in the future, with just its own little tank hanging up on the wall above the wood stove ( like was done in the old days) and then it can circulate passively, and excess heat would just go back to room heat when not drawing off water to clean with.
I do have a metal roof, for many reasons, it is safer for a fire area like here, it is a “cool roof” so helps keep the house cooler, and it would be good for rainwater catchment. I cant afford a tank yet for this, but rainwater catchment is the most sustainable, zero power way to have water here, as I get 80-120 inches of rain a year, but all in the winter, and my well is 250ft down, no surface water here. I would need at least 10k gallons, ideally more. I am going to do animal water rainwater catchment first. So, a 2,000 gallon tank would be sufficient at the barn to give goats water, and would use water off the barn. The chickens could get water off of the covering of their run and an IB tote would be large enough. There is a hand pump that will pump out of my deep well, and I should get one, but that and the large tank are too pricey right now. The other alternative is to have a direct DC solar pump on the well, so it can pump up to my existing well water tank when the sun is out ( 2500gallons) which is sufficient.
I presently have a bit under 3kW of solar electric panels on the roof, I put this in 19 years ago, and this provides all our power, my house is all electric, no propane or other gas ( it is grid intertied with battery back up. Batteries are 3 48V Aquion Energy Aspen batteries). My well pump is a 120V grundfos that can run off my inverter.
But, if I were to do it right NOW, I would put the money for energy/water to this : Direct solar panel to DC well pump to pump to tank when the sun is out; hand pump that is somewhere on Chris’s list on this site that will do my over 200 ft well; water catchment/tanks for animal housing and main house; Still keep the good wood stove, and house tightening; get a hot water loop to woodstove to its own little tank; install a Hesta Biogas system next to the deck to take both humanure direct from outhouse above it, and a spot to add animal stall cleaning, yard waste from the ground ( cooking, water heat, possibly transportation on occasion). Then, if I had any money left, I might do solar electric, but almost nothing would be needed ! SO, not essential, but nice if have the cash. Same for solar hot water, my present system is closed loop due to winter freezes, I might just do a summer shower in the garden with a batch solar hot water, and use biogas or wood stove heated water in winter.

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I want to agree with tech guy on the Marvin windows, but the ones I have are wood windows, wiht metal cladding on the outside. These are outstanding, and I have had them for 19 years now. absolutely no maintainance, and they look fantastic. I have fiberglass sliders, with wood cladding on the inside. These show color loss and aging from being on the south side. If you can afford the metal clad marvins, it is a better product. I would never buy the white plastic windows.
The foam panels I use, when and where I use them, are thermasheath. AN interesting thing about buidingretrofitting wiht these, if you put them directly against your cold surface, no space, so cut to fit space with space on all side hold tight against the outer surface in whater way, a couple nails to the studs, a second person holding it, etc… and use spray foam on the side. then, no air can hit the inside of this outer wall (or roofing deck), so there will be no condensation. So this roof cavity doesnot need to be vented. In my neighborhood we have seen very good results from this. I have done roofing cavities, the cripple walls/foundation of my house, behind a shower that is against an exterior wall, while my neighbor has rerofitted a garage, insulating all extrior walls this way before drywalling. The thermal and moisture performance is excellent.
I also do not have an attic, so besides having a “conditioned crawlspace” and not losing heat from that, I do not have a ventilated attic also losing heat.

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My immediate neighbor, now retired @ 75, had experience with oxen. First you start with male calves from a dairy herd. Cheap since not useful to a dairy. Train them with a simple yoke made of wood to function as a team as they grow. You then end up with slower but reliable draft animals that require much simpler and cheaper harnesses. Also, 4 to 5 years into the project you can overlap with new calves and end up with some meat on the table. Cattle are great land restorers if grazed with intensive grazing techniques. That requires daily moving of electric fencing which would be a good one hour per day part time job for an immediate neighbor.
Another thing on house sites is to find a run down trailerhome on some property. These usually have well, electric and septic already. This can be a cheaper way to get a home site going. You can build later after the farmstead is cranking along.

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mntnhousepermi wrote
“These show color loss and aging from being on the south side. If you can afford the metal clad marvins, it is a better product. I would never buy the white plastic windows.”
The reason why I am going with fiberglass over metal clad is that fireglass have a very low coefficient of expansion (less air leakage caused by temperature changes) and better R-Valve, since metal and Wood have a higher thermal conductivity than Fiberglass. I’m going for the full fiberglass windows (no wood).

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TechGuy wrote:
mntnhousepermi wrote "These show color loss and aging from being on the south side. If you can afford the metal clad marvins, it is a better product. I would never buy the white plastic windows." The reason why I am going with fiberglass over metal clad is that fireglass have a very low coefficient of expansion (less air leakage caused by temperature changes) and better R-Valve, since metal and Wood have a higher thermal conductivity than Fiberglass. I'm going for the full fiberglass windows (no wood).
I get that. But, they do not last as long, nor do they have the same easthetic looks. Given the proposed R and expansion numbers, what are we realy talking about here in terms of heat loss difference ? I would imagine that having ( or not having yet in my case...) realy good window coverings makes much more of a difference. I know it does. There is just so much that a window can do, as it is indeed a window and not a wall. ( An aside for those of you here not able to build a new zero-input dream house, do not let pursuit of the perfect get in the way of good solutions, and know this, value vs cost for house temperature comfort level means that new windows do not pay for themselves compared to other remediations. The highest payout is to add something like a warm window covering at night, and to take off the trim and insulate in that area around the window in that opening with non-expanding spray foam, put the trim back on. close those new insulated curtains at night. Go under your house and insulate the sill plate area with spray foam and/or do a conditioned crawlspace. Go in your attic and fill in all gaps in the ceiling, and foam the top plate of the walls.) As I said, it is a different way to approach the problem as I do not want to have to mechanically ventilate my house, I chose windows that will last longer than I will. And, I cut cost when I replaced the 2 south facing sliding doors by getting the fiberglass, and if I had to do it again, I would spend the money for the metal clad wood. I am just giving you a real world, on the ground observation. The windows are perfect after 19 years, and the fiberglass sliders show their age after only 9 year.
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Speaking of Motor Homes (RVs, etc), I just discovered that Camping USA has over 15,327 parks and campgrounds, so no need to mess up any neighbor’s property. Personal responsibility, no?
Here also are two lists: Latest Campground Reviews and Latest Campground Updates

Latest Campground Reviews

Council Road RV Park Fort Collins Lakeside KOA Kodachrome Basin State Park RV Park of Portland Eola Bend RV Park Grayback Campground Central City/Black Hawk KOA Sky City Casino Hotel & RV Park Matthews Creek Campground Bridge Camp Campground Beverly Beach State Park Tillicum Beach Campground Port Isabel Park Center Driftwood II Campground Ramsey Mobile Home & RV Park Rustler Park Campground Rucker Lake Campground Oliver Lee Memorial State Park Cape Perpetua Campground Sleepy Grass Campgound Del-Aire Campground Crazy Horse RV Campark Spearfish City Campground Two Island Lake Campground Cottonwood Campground View more campground reviews hp_box_bottom.gif

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Latest Campground Updates

Yogi Bear Jellystone Park Wis Dells Sundowner RV Village Rivers End Campground Lake Osprey RV Resort Taylors Lost Haven Abrams Creek Campground Long Ridge Campground Rock Cut RV Park and Campground Cross Creek Camping Resort Edge of the River Campground Rustic Acres RV Resort Ash Grove RV Park Colonial Mast Campground Grays Landing RV Park, LLC Hagers Hilly Haven Campground Cactus Petes Hotel & Casino Yakutat Beach Campground Yunshookuh Loop Campground Lower Salamander Creek Campground Anita Bay Overlook Campsite Ohmer Creek Campground Signal Creek Campground Last Chance Campground Mendenhall Lake Campground Auk Village Campground View more campground updates Mobility, mobility, mobility: at a moment's notice. Plan C. Enjoy, Ken
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I remembered - the portable rocket stove I have is a StoveTec, this one https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00F8NNBQE?psc=1

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Yes, it is a good idea to research and plan ahead on where you can go ! This is key as it is hard to think when in the middle of an evacuation or emergency.