Eric Sprott: Is the West Dishoarding Its Sovereign Treasure?

We are well into the financial crisis. Everyone’s trying to keep it together, even though it would appear from the reading of the economy things are not going well at all here. And everyone's ignoring things.

But I think, in their hearts, the Central Bankers must know what they’re doing is totally irresponsible. And the tell of that irresponsibility which is the debasing of the currencies is the fact that real things will go up in value. This should be reflected in the price of gold and silver.

So expresses Eric Sprott, CEO and founder of Sprott Asset Management, and one of the most experienced and vocal advocates for owning precious metals.

The past decade has validated Eric's thesis, as gold has risen considerably against all world fiat currencies. But what vexes him is that in recent years, when currency debasement has accelerated to extreme levels, precious metals prices have been clearly suppressed, particularly versus the U.S. dollar.

As the topic of price manipulation is nothing new, Eric finds his focus increasingly drawn to where the precious metals are going at these bargain prices - who is accumulating and who is dishoarding:

I’ve done a lot of work on the flow of metals. I come up with a net change of 2,300 tons a year in new buying in gold when the supply of gold hasn’t even gone up in the last twelve years. And you keep wondering: Well, where’s all this gold coming from?

His findings support the growing meme that there is a massive bullion transfer from West to East. This should particularly concern those in the U.S., EU and Canada as his suspicion is that, increasingly, it's monetary gold that is being sold.

There are several key questions to ask here (not that the data publicly exists to answer them):

  • How much of our sovereign monetary bullion reserves have been sold to date?
  • How much will be sold in the future? (Are we willing to sell all of it? or is there a limit we refuse to let go of?)
  • What will happen to the price of gold & silver when central banks stop selling to another? (Answer: shoot the moon)
  • What will be the fate of those economies that dishorded their treasure? (Answer: lamentable)

When I see China buying 95 tons of gold in December and I read that India bought 100 tons in the month of January, when we all collectively know there’s only about 200 tons a month available –  you have to conclude that G6 Central Banks continue to sell their gold in a very non-transparent fashion.

One of the things we saw in December was that the U.S. Department of Commerce reported that U.S. exports of gold were $4 billion. We exported 2.5 million ounces of gold. And where it comes from, [only] God knows; the country only produces 8.8 million a nd most of that’s used internally. So I don’t know how you just come up with 2.5 million ounces that you’re able to export. So I believe that even though it’s described as non-monetary gold, my guess is that it is monetary gold.

There’s lots afoot here in central banking to try to keep it organized. And I think one of those things is to keep the price suppressed.

But the non-G6 nations have been huge buyers of gold, and I think the more anybody looks at the system from outside looking in, they realize they have to have gold and silver, notwithstanding the nonsense that goes on in COMEX and the LBMA (London Bullion Market Association).

When I got involved in the gold market, it was assumed that the central banks had something like 36,000 tons of gold. And there was a great study done by Frank Veneroso where he suggests 18,000 those tons didn’t even exist anymore. 

The [global] central banks are sellers of 400 tons in an overt fashion. Now we see buying of over 500 tons. That, just in itself, is a 900-ton change in a 4000-ton market, if I’m including recyclables here. And yet there’s been no increase in supply.

So I have to assume that these central banks are running low, and the question in my mind is, do they just go down to zero and then give up?

Or do they look in the cupboards one day and say look, this is just not going to work because the intensity of buying by people, like China in particular, has just gone absolutely bonkers. And it looks like India, notwithstanding putting a surtax or excise tax on gold, the demand seems to be very firm. And as you mentioned, mint sales have been amazingly strong here.

So I think there’s enough element of the world who get it that the pressure’s going to continue to be on the price of gold going higher. And yes, there’s nothing we can do in terms of what’s going on in the COMEX and the LBMA, but we keep seeing more and more people asking for delivery, even in the COMEX. So I think that the day can’t be far off. We can’t predict when it’s going to be, but the natural stage should be that the price of gold is going up, and we’re in such a tremendous financial crisis that it hasn’t been allowed to manifest itself because they’re putting out fires all the time.

For precious metals holders licking their wounds from the carnage of the past several months, this podcast offers both new insights and sound reminders of the long-term reasons for owning gold and silver. Those on the sidellines considering entering into the precious metals, perhaps for the first time, should consider reading our guide to Buying Gold & Silver after listening to this podcast. 

[Update: interested readers may also want to view this infographic visualizing the world's silver supply. Compared to the US debt, it really hits home how the precious metals are a much more confidence-inspiring store of value than fiat currency.]

Click the play button below to listen to Chris' interview with Eric Sprott (34m:40s):

This is a companion discussion topic for the original entry at https://peakprosperity.com/eric-sprott-is-the-west-dishoarding-its-sovereign-treasure/

Franklin Sanders, at http://the-moneychanger.com/ has a program that encourages monthly savings program in gold and silver.  They call it the "Monthly Acquisition Program" (MAP).  It is designed for people who want to accumulate PMs over time like a long term savings plan.  The minimum purchase is $300.  But you can skip any month and purchase nothing.  Thus there is never any obligation to buy anything.
How it works.

  1.  You join the MAP by filling out a one page application. http://the-moneychanger.com/monthly_acquisition_plan

  2.  Pay $12 / year membership fee.

  3.  Every month they mail you a reminder letter.

  4.  Prior to the 15th of the month, you respond saying how much you want to purchase that month and include a check for that amount.  (In the first 3 months they ask for a US Postal money order, after that, a personal check.  If you bounce a check they drop you from the program.)  Indicate whether you want 1) gold only 2) gold and silver 3) silver only.

  5.  They mail you a little brown box of coins about 3-4 weeks later.

The advantages is that it allows individuals to purchase small amounts with very low mark-up and it encourages participants to stay the course with their intent to save via accumulating PMs with the monthly reminder letter.  (Small volume PM purchases typically have very high mark-up.)

Where the rubber meets the road is real precious metal at real prices.We've been in la la land for too long.There doesn't appear to be any price discovery anymore.Oil, gold, silver,corn, soya, you name it there is no market.It's all manipulation one way or another.When the oil, gold and silver come into real world shortages of supply and the Fed can no longer play master magician, the real fun will begin. Pick a number and add two zeros.That's where this is going or it will be Weimar Republic time where a gram of gold is worth infinite dollars…
 This of course all may take years to come about but looking at the desperate suppression of prices that's now going on. I'd say this is ENDGAME 

 

Chris –
Assuming that everything said in this interview is true, price discovery in gold and silver will not happen in any time horizon that will be useful to any of us. Maybe decades from now the truth will come out – like LIBOR. In the meantime owning gold and silver is like tilting at windmills. Those imagining shortages of physical metals are dreaming. SLV and GLD are paper scams run by JP Morgan and HSBC that will provide all the metals needed and no one will be the wiser for decades that they hold no metal .

I don't know about this Wroth.  While the battle might go on for one, two or five more years  (no one can predict the timing), there's no doubt it will come to a head at some point. A couple observations-1. There were 4 people ahead of me in line this morning at the coin shop.  I've never been in there where there was that many people buying.  Two of them were making their first ever gold & silver purchases. The PM dealer told me he hasn't had a seller in almost two weeks, all buyers.  I get a sense that people are catching on and taking only physical delivery.
2. In regards to Libor, that took place for a few years (maybe 5 or so, not sure) but was exposed.  So while there has been very little in the way of prosecution, the rigging has ended.  The same could happen in the PM market.  At some point the game will be exposed, either from a whistleblower or a real price discovery event like China saying its hauled in 500 tons in the last 18 months.  At some point it will no longer be able to contained.  I always say its like telling one lie.  In order to keep the lie going, you have to tell 10 more to cover it up.

The latest iteration of the gold suppression scheme probably has it's roots around the time Larry Summers and Robert Rubin wrote a paper in 1988 tittled "Gibson's Paradox and the Gold Standard."  Looking at the gold chart going back to the peak in 1980 it appears that the scheme was working very well, at least for a while anyways. In spite of TPTB efforts to suppress the price the gold price started to rise again in and around 1999. I think TPTB realized their efforts were failing and brought two new suppression vehicles GLD in 2004 and SLV in 2006. During the 80's, 90's and the earlier part of the 2000's IMHO my opinion that TPTB had pretty much a monopoly on information through the main stream media. The popularity of the internet started growing in the 90's and as it picked up speed reliable information on Gold that was difficult to come by in the past was becoming readily available. Astute investors ever since have picked up the ball and started to run with it. Today we have numerous experts such as the group at GATA, Peter Schiff, Eric Sprott that are able to relay the important message about precious metals through this relative new medium the internet. TPTB never foresaw this and I beleive this explosion in information will be the final nail in their coffin.

wroth5:You are 100% correct.  This paper scam will last for years.  Eric Sprott is fighting a losing battle.  In each of his interviews, he uses the same boring & useless arguments.  Sprott needs to quit using these same old tired arguments.  It makes him look silly.  Trying to fight JPM & HSBC is complete waste of time.  All of these gold bugs predicting $10K gold & $500 silver are living in a fantasy world.  Most likely, PMs topped out in 2011.  Sprott needs to move on.
 

jcat3022:Andrew Maguire blew the whistle on JPM & HSBC two years ago.  Absolutely nothing has been done by the CFTC.  And it never will.  This gold & silver scam will last for years into the future.  Eventually, investors will get sick of waiting for the "big move" and they will sell their PMs.  In the end, JPM & HSBC will win.
 

What value is Gold? Let us ask Marx.

[quote=evad65]wroth5:
You are 100% correct.  This paper scam will last for years.  Eric Sprott is fighting a losing battle.  In each of his interviews, he uses the same boring & useless arguments.  Sprott needs to quit using these same old tired arguments.  It makes him look silly.  Trying to fight JPM & HSBC is complete waste of time.  All of these gold bugs predicting $10K gold & $500 silver are living in a fantasy world.  Most likely, PMs topped out in 2011.  Sprott needs to move on.
 
[/quote]
 
Evad, please explain why Sprott's arguments are "boring & useless". Are they boring because they're based on distorted economic fundamentals that you're tired of hearing about? What fundamentals have you uncovered which contradict these? "Most likely, PMs topped out in 2011" seems to be a comment ripe for explanation. You have the floor.

Evad,
I'm not 100% following your logic here.  What happens if there is a loss of confidence in paper currencies from debasement (occurring now w/ the Yen, Sterling, soon to be Euro and eventually back to the dollar after everyone else has been debased).  I guess if you think that everything will return to normal after creating 20 trillion + currency units to keep the system afloat without collapse or any inflation, then I see why PM's wouldn't be for you.  I agree that the shenanigans of the TBTF banks may work (for now), but I'm eventually just not seeing how they'll be able to contain it when there is serious money moving into the PM market.  So while folks like Sprott and James Turk may have their timing wrong, in the end the story they're telling will come true for no other reason that the system will collapse under its own weight.  I'm just not seeing any way out of this, maybe you are?
If emerging countries like China & Russia weren't massive accumulators right now, I might think about selling my PM's.
 

One of the most important traits to have is the ability to hang on when you are right.  Bull markets have a bad habit of tossing a lot of people off along the way and this gold and silver bull market will be no different.
I did my heavy buying of gold and silver in 2002 and I have seen price increases every year since.  Perhaps this year will be the one that breaks the string, or maybe not.

The powers that be are fighting a losing battle here mainly because something lese very important happened along with the information revolution; China became very wealthy.

Prior to 2000 TPTB pretty much had the set all to themselves and firmly controlled both the vertical and the horizontal knobs.  Now?  Not so much.

The longer they keep  gold and silver suppressed the faster and sooner it will migrate east.  This will create very real pressures soon enough.

On a longer basis I see that silver is rapidly depleting and gold reserves are devilishly tricky to replace with both items facing diminishing ore yields on the one hand and rapidly rising mining costs on the other.  That's a recipe for less production and higher production costs both of which will feed into price.

As this process is unfolding we still have trillions in cash, tens of trillions of debt, and hundreds of trillions in derivatives all sitting there assuming that there will always be plenty of everything to buy.  That assumption will change, it has to or else reality no longer applies, and when it does where will it go and what will it do?

The daily wiggles of the price fixers are entertaining, but they are not reality.  The trend is your friend.  Figure out what the big trend is, establish a position, and hang on.  Yes, TPTB will fight everything that undermines their status quo, but if they are fighting reality, then reality will win.  At least it always has.

I am as confident of my positions in the PMs as I have ever been.

Chris,First - thanks for all you do.  I agree with you fully here.  I see the central banks around the globe who are purchasing gold as a key factor to watch.  Your work (& that of Paul Tustain & Michael Maloney) planted the key concept in my mind - that gold is at the core of the financial universe - and central banks continuing actions to accumulate supports this fact.
 I've stopped worrying about anything denominated in dollars.  Our desperate empire will thrash violently trying to avoid its fiscal fate, so no telling what rules/laws/edicts will be forthcoming concerning PMs.  As you've pointed out, fundamentals are seemingly decoupled from reality.  But it shouldn't strike anyone as abnormal that when the currency creation is decoupled from reality, that fundamentals downstream likewise become decoupled.  I like the long arm of history on this one…that gold/silver will faithfully play their role as a store of wealth. Getting anxious about price is to somewhat miss the point of why PM's are preferable during this period of runaway fiat currency debasement. 
Charles Hugh Smith's writings in Survival + were also instrumental in opening my eyes to other measures of wealth during difficult times - the FEW (food, energy, water) things that make life sustainable.   Glad you've added him as a frequent contributor.  
Dan

Chris,Instead of only having interviews with people who agree with your viewpoint, how about some dialogue with those who don't. I think a civil discussion between you and  someone who thinks the bull market in gold is over might be very enlightening to your readers. Also about some dialogue with someone who thinks we are going to be awash in oil. 
nstead of

I think the more pertinent question is;  why are you here?  You seem to be selling the hopelessness of PM investing and now the idea that we don't face resource constraints.  What is your agenda?  Do you want to argue for the sake of argument?  Do you have some small piece of you that believes the CM/PP agenda may actually be true and you want to give yourself every chance to be convinced of its validity?You ask alot of Chris above… I ask only a little from you.  Is this your way of trying to tell yourself everything will be OK - by taking the position that our money won't die, and our oil won't continue to get more expensive?  I am not going to treat you as a troll because you joined long, long ago… I ask sincerely;  what are you trying to accomplish?   

@ evad65


All of these gold bugs predicting $10K gold & $500 silver are living in a fantasy world.

It appears that you are making the assumption that all people who invest in PM are doing so in order to make a killing on capital gains. While there is no doubt we would all love to see major price appreciation, I think for many people PM acquisitions are viewed more an insurance hedge against inflation as opposed to an investment. As CM has pointed out many times, inflation is inevitable when there is massive money printing. We are seeing plenty of evidence of what I call un-acknowledged inflation in our daily lives - smaller packaging that is still the same price as the old packaging, dilution of quality products by adding inferior products, increases in fees and surcharges that do not show up in pricing, and on and on.... we are being nickel and dimed to death. And look at what has happened to the poor souls in Venezuala - they have had their currency devalued five times in a decade. I remain confident in my thinking that most Venezualen citizens would be far better able to weather their ongoing storm if they had some PM that they could use for trading in the black market. History has shown that PM are a solid hedge against inflation. If you are in it for a quick buck you are not likely to be rewarded. But the same can be said for stocks. A long term view is necessary to own these assets, and as an earlier podcast guest said "you must be wedded to your investments". I am wedded to mine, because I believe in real assets, as opposed to paper promises. To each unto his own though. If you are wedded to paper promises then so be it. If you have absolute  faith that you will be able to maintain your standard of living on the basis of what a bunch of fraudulent manipulators do and say, then good on ya. With all the cheating and lying going on these days, I much prefer an asset that has no liability attached to it. It will always be worth something tangible, and I don't think you can say that for your paper promises. Jan

Jan, you are absolutely right, you go girl!
Fantasy World - it's all relative.

  • $10,000 gold and $500 silver
  • digital ones & zeros (fiat money) will forever be able to buy food, fuel and basic life sustaining goods
Hmmmm let me ponder which one is fantasy.

I love the simplicity of this.  "Yes, TPTB will fight everything that undermines their status quo, but if they are fighting reality, then reality will win.  At least it always has.

Common sense reigns supreme.

AK Granny

Instead of only having interviews with people who agree with your viewpoint, how about some dialogue with those who don't. I think a civil discussion between you and  someone who thinks the bull market in gold is over might be very enlightening to your readers. Also about some dialogue with someone who thinks we are going to be awash in oil instead of [?]
I would second that suggestion. These are very trying times for those of us who agree with the 3E message (at least on the economic front and to some extent on the energy front). I am holding my PMs because I believe the fundamentals demand I do so. But what if I am wrong?

If we don't question our premises from time to time, we are, are at best, just "true believers." I think Chris would be excellent at throwing some hard balls (in a respectful and civil manner of course) at thoughtful, knowledgeable and intelligent folks in the other camp. Most of  us who work for a living in something other than the finance or energy domains don't have the intimate knowledge to really parse the arguments and understand our positions. I want to hear the other sides' arguments in an honest (i.e. not the shills on CNBC) and forthright discussion. 

In the end, no one knows the answers; it is all "belief" but I, skeptic that I am, want to understand better my beliefs. 

Who knows the future? I'm TPTB are well aware their house of cards is looking shaky and at risk of collapse. Yet we know humans are if nothing ingenous and clever. What are the options, other than reverting to some sort of asset backed [ie Gold] system?
Could a new universal currency [Fiat] be launched globally? The powers that be co-ordinating across continents as 'the crisis' becomes extreme and 'emergency' measures need imposing to prevent anarchy.

[quote=AndyG]Could a new universal currency [Fiat] be launched globally? The powers that be co-ordinating across continents as 'the crisis' becomes extreme and 'emergency' measures need imposing to prevent anarchy.[/quote]In a nutshell, yes.  The IMF has issued SDR's (Special Drawing Rights) for at least a few decades now.  The elites who run the global financial system would like to see SDR's become part (if not a majority) of the reserve currency because it places debt on an institution, not a country or currency.  It is favored because it in theory keeps the paper ponzi going.  It would take 5-10 years to implement though, so in a "super crisis" scenario I think you probably would get a lot more chaos than stabilization.
Jim Rickards covers it in his book "Currency Wars" which is a fantastic read.