James Howard Kunstler: It's Too Late for Solutions

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Author and social critic James Howard Kunstler has been one of the earliest, most direct, and most articulate voices to warn of the consequences -- economic and otherwise -- of modern society's profligate wasting of the resources that underlie its growth.

In his new book, Too Much Magic, Jim attacks the wishful thinking dominant today that with a little more growth, a little more energy, a little more technology -- a little more magic -- we'll somehow sail past our current tribulations without having to change our behavior.

Such self-delusion is particularly dangerous because it is preventing us from taking intelligent, constructive action at the national level when the clock is fast ticking out of our favor. In fact, Jim claims that we are past the state where solutions are possible. Instead, we need a response plan to help us best brace for the impact of the coming consequences. And we need it fast.

[We now live in] this weird, peculiar period in American history when the delusional thinking has risen to astronomical levels -- predictably, really -- in response to the stress levels that our society feels. And it is expressing itself as sort of "waiting for Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy" to deliver a set of rescue remedies to us so that we can continue running Wal-Mart, Walt Disney World, Suburbia, the U.S. Army, and the Interstate Highway System by other means. That is the great wish out there. It is kind of understandable, because that is the stuff that we have, and people tend to defend the stuff that they have in any given society and the systems and platforms that they run on.  But it is probably a form of collective behavior that is not really going to benefit us very much and really amounts to simply wasting our time, and wasting our dwindling resources, and even our spiritual resources when we could be doing things that are a lot more intelligent. 

Here is something I have detected as I travel around the country: There is a clamor for “solutions.” Everywhere I go, people say "Don't be a doomer; give us solutions." And I discovered that the subtext to all that is they really want solutions for allowing them to keep on living exactly the way they are living now. To keep on running Wal-Mart, and keep on running Suburbia, and keep on running the highway system, and the whole kit of parts. And what that really means is that they are looking for ways to add on additional complexity to a society that is already suffering from too much complexity.

So I am trying to propose something a little different. Rather than so-called solutions, I am proposing that we use the term "intelligent responses," which is not so grandiose. It does not come with a whole grab bag of promises that life is actually going to work out exactly the way you wish. A lot of the intelligent responses that we could be making to our predicament would have a lot to do with decomplexifying and with simplifying. But we do not want to do that; we just want to add more complexity, and that is what some of the wishful thinking and vanities about technology are all about. 

We are discovering more and more that the world is comprehensively broke in every sphere, and in every dimension, and in every way. The governments in every level are all broke, the households are going broke, the banks are insolvent, the money really is not there. And the pretense that the money is there has been kept going simply with accounting fraud. And accounting fraud really accounts for most of the so-called "innovation" that we chatter incessantly about – this is at the heart of Too Much Magic and the wishful thinking about technology. We are so intoxicated with this idea that we can create new and wonderful things. And we have absolutely no sense that the new and wonderful things that we created in the money system are destroying the money system.

One of the lessons that used to be at the center of a liberal education, and no longer is, is that life is tragic. And by that I do not mean that happy endings are impossible or that bad outcomes are guaranteed. What I mean is that there are consequences to the things that you do, and that everything has a beginning and a middle and an end. And we have to get real with those. 

It seems to me that the whole capital issue is going to accelerate hugely over the summer. I really do not see how the Europeans can get out of the box they are in – it really does not look like they are going to be able to form a European fiscal union. And it really does not look like the Germans are going to be willing to print money into a hyperinflation. And so I think that the disappearance of money is going to accelerate, and it is going to be all getting sucked into a black hole over the next six months. And that is going to be the beginning of a broad-based social awareness of the nature of this problem.

Click the play button below to listen to Chris' interview with James Kunstler (41m:10s):

This is a companion discussion topic for the original entry at https://peakprosperity.com/james-howard-kunstler-its-too-late-for-solutions/

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What a treat to have JHK as a guest. My model of reality is dominated by the Limits To Growth model.The author Prof. Meadows refuses to take the post peak scenario seriously. It is a laugh a miniute.
Prof James Lovelock predicts that we wont make it. Extinction.
I shall tell you what I see in Daejeong at the Cold Fusion conference. Your survival depends on their un-apprecated efforts.
First we solve the energy crisis and then we leave the Planet to ameloriate the exponential growth problem.
The alternative is extinction.
I have written a Science Fiction story too. It is a laugh a miniute.

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Chris,

A great and thought provoking interview, excellent stuff. The podcast the other week with Joe Saluzzi was a treat as well.

DavidC

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You know, even if we did find some other endless form of energy, and could use it wisely without baking ourselves or extinguishing a few thousand more species, Jim has a lot of good points about the unexamined nature of our self-imposed living arrangements.
Perhaps there are improvements that could be made (or rediscovered), and you need someone like Jim asking the right questions and making astute observations to see things from a different perspective.

And if one takes the view that there are resource limits out there somewhere, then there's no time like the present to begin thinking about where we are going and what we'd like it to look like when we get there.

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I don't know any of the specifics of Jim's living arrangement aside from what he shared here and where he lives.  WRT the latter, I am pretty familiar with the town and county where he recently moved.  I have to say that he is putting his money where his mouth is.  After a few years of following Chris and many of the people who share the viewpoints of this site, I find it refreshing to discover one of the group who shares my living situation in significant ways.  That is, he lives in or near a small community in an inpoverished area that has languished for the last 40 years or so.  It will be interesting to follow how he adapts to the culture and economics of the area.
Doug

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Always great to hear from JHK," The Long Emergency" is essential reading. The new book "Too Much Magic" sounds like it will be a great read. I like they way the conversation meanders in such a natural way, just like two good friends in a bar, over a drink.I also like James Howard Kunstler's black sense of humour!

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it is a shame that JHK finds himself "allergic to conspiracy theories," since a useful and necessary narrative out of our collective predicament is to recognize that there has been a very deliberate attempt to lie to the american people, conspiracies and collusion does happen, and justice and truth demand investigations of the deceptions and criminality of our leaders.
JHK always self censors himself in this regard, which is a shame, because in many, many respects, he is spot on.

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Chris, to have you and a mentor (of sort) like Mr. Kunstler was indeed a treat. Both of you lift my spirits with every word spoken in this Podcast… Not one single word or expression of thought by either of you isn't exciting to here.
The comments over at zerohedge weren't all that complimentary but then again it wasn't hard to understand when reading how those people felt. Still in denial and will need to catch up.

A little story about your daily adventures and how darkness was your Que to get home (ours was streets lights). My son has two son's that I love unbelievably. I expressed only one strong view since they were married and never interfere in anything, and are always accommodative. That was this: Any electric play car that does not require my grand babies to either push, peddle or run aside would have all the wiring pulled from it. That my son doesn't have to look far for the culprit because it would have been me. Why? As you said, kids need boredom, it allows thoughts and a self awareness to creep into their very souls. Imagining what is possible from the world around them, it is where good choices come from. Plus, they get their exercise. My son and I are of the same mind so I am glad I will never have to be that grand parent.

Anyways, just a fabulous Podcast, it gets no better than Mr. Kunstler

Regards

BOB

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This is the stuff that, sadly, is missing from any national discussion and probably will continue to be right up until the brink of collapse. I recall a quote from the remake of a classic sci fi movie-The Day the Earth Stood Still: "It's only on the precipice that we [humanity] evolve". It's difficult to see right now how the TPTB will be persuaded to act before we need to test this hypothesis.
It would be fascinating to hear a three-way discussion /debate between Jim, Chris and Ray Kurzweil. I can't think of an intellectual with a more diametrically opposed viewpoint on the future of technology, humanity, and the planet. 

Chris- Thanks for the walk down memory lane. I share similar recollections of my childhood growing up in suburban New England. Being allowed to make my own mistakes without parental "helicoptering" fostered independence and an enquiring mind. A partial list of these life-affirming experiences would include sore fingers from short-fused firecrackers and botched attempts at starting u-control model airplane engines, a red welt on the leg from unjamming the new Daisy BB gun, and the most important lesson of all: Don't twist the tail on the neighbor's dog when you get bored unless you like to run!

My parents still live in the house that I grew up in. New neighbors have come and gone and many have had kids, but they don't wander the streets and yards with their dogs as we used to. I'm fully aware that the only constant is change, but I really believe that many children today have lost something critical to developing independent thought that we're going to pay for down the road. Perhaps it will be streetwise urban youth that will be better equipped to deal with a fast-changing world?

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Serendipity!  I had no sooner set down "The Long Emergency" after reading the last chapter than a vsit to PP.com gifted me with this interview.  How many times have you longed to visit with an author after finishing their book?  This was great!  Also have just finished "World Made by Hand"-  what an engaging writer.  I suppose I came late to both these books, but if you haven't read either, I heartily recommend them.  Waiting for "The Witch of Hebron" to appear at the library, but will probably purchase the new book.  Thanks Chris and Jim.  Aloha, Steve.

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Dr. Iain McGilchrist will be able to offer insights into why the Virtual world is dead. Please take the time to watch this video.
[video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozQpR-6fM4Y&feature=player_detailpage]

Dr McGilchrist argues that the imbalance begun with the Enlightenment. While Models are absolutely vital to us puny humans it is the Gestaldt that gives life it's meaning.

For further reading please consider his book.

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I completely disagree with you there, JHK being "allergic to conspiracy theories" puts him in the creditable catagory. The whole notion of conspiracy implies a knowledgable plan by the conspirers or at the very least an elite with an agenda. This opens you up to critics who will pigeon hole you, then you need hard evidence that you are not a crank! By avoiding the whole notion JHK doesn't need to justify these theories.

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Dr. Chris talked about, "…letting us all go out and make our own mistakes and roam around is a wonderful thing to do." I'm about his age. Yes,  I remember a childhood when I read library books (gotten via bike) in the tops of 40-ft oaks to feel the breeze, or played Robin Hood or Jungle Book in  the woods behind my home, or–most notably–when my siblings and I were allowed to take a small Sunfish sailboat across a two-mile, shark-infested brackish bay to an Altalntic border beach. Yes, we had life preservers, and yes we knew how to swim, and yes we wore sunblock and froze our lunch so it would be thawed by the time we were (always) becalmed for two hours on the far side of the bay.
But we took risks. We learned from the experiences. Most importantly, we had earned our parent's trust and reveled in that increasing reasponibility. We also pulled the boat on a large wagon to the end of an inlet and canoe-paddled the boat out into the open bay where we could use the sail.

The comment that current suburban neighborhoods looked like they'd been hit by a neutron bomb was accurate. However, part of the reason I love our community is the kids on bikes, the kids doing target practice with air rifles, the home gardeners out weeding their tomatoes, and the people out walking their dogs. As luxuries like cable TV and computers to game on get more and more expensive I hope this trend continues. What will change things the most for the southern US will be when it gets too expensive to run the A/C. Then, look for the resurgance of the use of the font porch, the screen porch, and the post-prandial (after dinner) stroll. Neighbors will talk to neighbors again, and I say "About time that happened."

My only disagreement with JHK has slways been how he dismisses religious folks. They have one of the strongest local built-in senses of practical community you can find. I think its a mistake to not appreciate that resource.

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[quote=amusedtodeath]

Always great to hear from JHK," The Long Emergency" is essential reading. The new book "Too Much Magic" sounds like it will be a great read. I like they way the conversation meanders in such a natural way, just like two good friends in a bar, over a drink.I also like James Howard Kunstler's black sense of humour! [/quote]

-I have to agree with ATD, the nature of Chris's and JHK's podcast made it a pleasure to listen to.  That, and being able to listen in on the conversation of two thought-leaders like Chris and Jim; the insight you get from this kind of interaction is just precious.  It's like a live performance of a couple of your favorite musicians jamming vs listening to an excellent -but less spontaneous- recording.  Keep the podcasts coming, Chris and Adam!

Chris, I, like others, also share the same kind of childhood experiences you did.  We roamed over hills, climbed trees, caught minnows in creeks, and ran pretty much unfettered until it was time to go home  for dinner.  It was the best!  I feel a sense of loss that children now are so much less likely to have the gift of that kind of freedom and learning experience, not to mention the opportunity to develop the rich relationship with nature we had.  Part of it is the attraction of electronic gaming, but part is also the parental concern about child predators.  Even my rural area has experienced that kind of tragedy, which makes it so hard for parents to feel safe letting their children roam as we once did.  I know I find myself torn, as a parent, between letting my child run free as I did, and insisting on more oversight for safety sake.  It's a hard choice.

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Look, the top->downers won, and what did they win?  A slice of American Cheese on Wonderbread.   The fundamental problem has nothing to do with Suburbia (I see a lot more per home garbage waste in the city).   It is simply that technology allowed the top->downers to create a fiction using fear (e.g. the Pedophilia Scare, the Sun Scare, etc).  With the "advancing" technology enabling the top->downers, humans have no choice.   Sure we are the most arrogant animal on the planet, but the human animal is still an animal that is governed by Natural Laws.  One of those laws, the Biologic Law, states that all species reach a crisis point when the species goes extinct.  Humans only find some of the fossils therefore this animal thinks it is god's exception.

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While I agree with much of the discussions, I disagree with a few of the thoughts presented:
One is that suburbs are these horrible things that are nothing but horrible places (JHK view).  In the future they might be an advantage in that they give citizens a bit of land to grow food, have solar panels, etc.  I don't think it's that suburbs are necessarily the problem but that the isolation we have between people is more apparent in a suburb where you can jump in your vehicle in your garage and drive to work without having to interact with your neighbors versus in a city with high population densities you don't have that option even though you may be just as isolated.

I agree that virtual is no substitute for real interaction.  While technology has allowed more isolation, I don't believe it is the root of the problem.  Rather it is just another tool like suburbs that allow us to see the breakdown in human interaction.

So what do I think is the root of the problem? - I believe it is the distortion caused by our monetary system that has allowed us to live much more isolated lives.  We no longer have to value what others contribute because we have all been blessed not to have to care.  We don't have to interact with the farmer because we can just go to the grocery store to get our food.  Because of JIT production and shipping anything we have wanted is available 24x7x365.  Technology, high density energy, and a hyped up monetary system have allowed us to distort the value of labor, skill, capital and community.  Community is lost because we haven't had to rely on others - you could lead an isolated live and do just fine.

Take for instance the phone issue JHK brought up at the beginning.  The computerization (digitization) of the phone system has led to tremendous advantages - cell phones, cheap calling world wide, unlimited calling, voice mail, etc all at cheaper and cheaper rates.   However, as with any technology advances it generally means some form of labor that used to perform those tasks will be devalued.    Telephone operators are much less needed, so their labor should drop in value dramatically.

However, we can see that due to flood of money we have allowed much of labor to be valued artificially high.  We use unions, minimum wage laws, and regulatory burden to artificially prop up salaries particularly for unskilled or unneeded labor.  That works as long as there is excess money and capital that can support that overhead.  What we seen now in an energy declining world is the illusion being revealed that everyone must produce what society wants and that labor will be valued based on the product produced.  In JHKs example of the phone tree, it's not that people want to interact with a computer.  Nor do doctors or other businesses want to force interaction with a computer onto their customers.  The technology is not deployed simply because it exists.  We get phone trees because the advantage of talking to a human is not high enough to overcome the required labor costs.  Let labor costs for unskilled labor reflect market demand and many business would gladly hire a phone operator versus buy an automated system.

I think we have also seen a distortion in the other way, energy has allowed us to discount labor for things we really need.  For instance farming.  I think we will suddenly find that farm labor in the US is much more valuable when we can't use energy and distorted money to buy food from abroad.

Another change I believe is coming is that when we can no longer simply "buy" what we need, we will begin to have more community because we will have to interact out of necessity.  Island living whether in a suburb or city will become less of an option.

 

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[quote=safewrite]Dr. Chris talked about, "…letting us all go out and make our own mistakes and roam around is a wonderful thing to do." I'm about his age. Yes,  I remember a childhood when I read library books (gotten via bike) in the tops of 40-ft oaks to feel the breeze, or played Robin Hood or Jungle Book in  the woods behind my home, or–most notably–when my siblings and I were allowed to take a small Sunfish sailboat across a two-mile, shark-infested brackish bay to an Altalntic border beach. Yes, we had life preservers, and yes we knew how to swim, and yes we wore sunblock and froze our lunch so it would be thawed by the time we were (always) becalmed for two hours on the far side of the bay.
But we took risks. We learned from the experiences. Most importantly, we had earned our parent's trust and reveled in that increasing reasponibility. We also pulled the boat on a large wagon to the end of an inlet and canoe-paddled the boat out into the open bay where we could use the sail.
The comment that current suburban neighborhoods looked like they'd been hit by a neutron bomb was accurate. However, part of the reason I love our community is the kids on bikes, the kids doing target practice with air rifles, the home gardeners out weeding their tomatoes, and the people out walking their dogs. As luxuries like cable TV and computers to game on get more and more expensive I hope this trend continues. What will change things the most for the southern US will be when it gets too expensive to run the A/C. Then, look for the resurgance of the use of the font porch, the screen porch, and the post-prandial (after dinner) stroll. Neighbors will talk to neighbors again, and I say "About time that happened."
My only disagreement with JHK has slways been how he dismisses religious folks. They have one of the strongest local built-in senses of practical community you can find. I think its a mistake to not appreciate that resource.
Safewrite,
I cannot agree more with your final thought regarding religion. I grew up in the intellectual North East. Attended boarding school and all that. It wasn't until I embraced rural living that I started to see amazing  values and a strong sense of tradition and culture. In small communities the church is a powerful force, not due to denominatioal hair-splitting, but in the context of creating manageably sized micro-communities that do all kinds of social good.
I fully intend to introduce members of my church group to some of the Peak Prosperity concepts. 

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Especially as it wandered into the territory of considering the human/spiritual costs we have paid as a society due to the choices we have made about living arrangements etc – these ideas appear in the larger discussion so rarely as to be non-existent.  How shall we live, and live well – and to what end?
Viva – Sager

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So I bought the Lonely Planet's guide to Korea. In the back was all about North Korea as tourist destination. There was a bit of self congratulatory gloating in the tone of the well written article.
I hold the situation in North Korea as a model for all our fates. We might need to go there to learn how to do this thing.

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I suggest that you read another book called TOO MUCH MAGIC that came out a year before Kunstler’s book. It is called “TOO MUCH MAGIC: Pulling the Plug on the Cult of Tech" by Jason Benlevi. It has much more original thesis about the digital one percent and the overwhelming influence they will have on our future. http://www.toomuchmagic.com