Khosla Ventures: The US is Massively Underfunding the Innovations Critical to Its Energy Future

rhare, I have tried, no, have accomplished in my life the neccesity to treat others as I like to be treated. I wasn’t under the impression that I was hiding behind anything. Anyways, when I say the common good then that’s what I mean, the common good.
It is not my intention to have your home stolen for the common good but if practical, and cheaper to do then I’m sorry, you gotta go. As a commoner myself however, I always try and take a common sense approach. That being in this instance, and in no particular order is this, we need jobs, we need to preserve as much wasteful spending as we can. We have an infrastructure that is past its useful life, we need so much mass transportation that removes us off fossil fuels. We need to make this electrical build, and would be wise to build everything out together. Perhaps this article I have attached will show some of the issues we will face. Again, I am trying to be a part of the solution, and not part of the problem. Go Tigers-Red Wings

BOB

http://www.elawreview.org/elaw/394/the_trojan_horse_of_electric_p.html

rhare,
Thank you for your comments.

I think you may have misunderstood my perspective. 

First, understand that I am sure I’m on your side of the libertarian Maginot Line.  I want the smallest possible government period.  For the record, I don’t want zero government (reference the U.S. Constitution on the right role of government.  I can’t find social security, medicare, school programs, Pell Grants, FHA or Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac anywhere in there).

I’m sure you appreciate the bulk of my comment was to keep the government out of the alternative energy commercialization space to the maximum extent possible.  I don’t care if the Chinese are central planning and subsidizing their alternative energy.  They are also censoring every form of media they can from Google to Facebook.  They are disappearing people that disagree we the party (google Bo Xilai sometime).  They have childern of party leaders driving in Ferraris.

On the other hand, I have to be objective and point out that government investment (yes taxing and spending) in an area I know something about, basic biology, has yielded some rather significant private sector benefits and national economic benefits.  We have a biotech sector that is the envy of the world.   Yes we spend about 40 billion per year on the NIH.  Yes a lot of that is wasted.  Yes the granting process is deeply flawed (don’t get me started!).  But we have untold thousands of DNA-based biotech products that  make billions, all of which were made possible by basic science breakthroughs that almost surely would not be funded by private companies.   Polymerase chain reaction, DNA sequencing, monoclonal antibodies to name a few.  Scientists make discoveries that move the ball down the field, entrepreneurs pick up the ball and make it possible for these discoveries to do things for the average person (at low cost!).

As much as I may want to begrudge government credit, the Manhattan project did indeed suceed (controveries re the atomic bomb aside).  Now it worked ultimately because of the skills of the physicists and engineers.  But the government played a key role in providing funding and as a catalyst to bring those minds together.  And it should not be underappreciated, to create the mission, the imperative and provide the urgency.

Make no mistake, I am not advocating the haphazard "energy policy" approach of an Obama-type president, which I think much of which is taxpayer funded payoffs to his constituency, the same could also be said of Bush.  And frankly most recent presidents.  I’m also happy to take away other programs to provide budget to fund these centers (corn subsidies are a good place to start).

The reason that Manhatten projects work is focus and scale.  Focus, focus, focus.  What is the key yardstick by which a national center will be measured.  For the Manhatten project it was simple.  Make an atomic bomb that makes a big boom.   For the human genome project it was "give me the sequence of the human genome".   I was trying to galvanize a discussion or at least ask does such an opportunity exist in alternative energy?  I have t believe there is.

Hrunner

When you, your family or your friends are those in the way of progress you may see this very differently.  The problem is when societies become willing to trample on the individuals rights and property it leads down a very dark path no matter how well the intentions.  It’s also unnecessary.

What you are advocating is the use of force instead of persuasion because it is more expedient.  So what happens when we decide that we need a few million less people to be sustainable?  This is a reoccurring theme and often leads to tyrants in power, because once you decide the state is more important than the individual you end up with those at the top of the political class abusing others for personal gain.

You clearly are already a long ways down the path the state desires.  Once you start believing some people are better than others you will sanction most any action as long as it’s "for the greater good".  

The problem is that article you attached acknowledges there are problems caused by governments already abusing the property rights of others at the state level (via regulatory agencies) and advocates that just a bit more government from the Federal level can surely solve the problems!  It also a good example of the use of force via government to advance an agenda, in this "climate change mitigation".

So what are the lessons of the Crash Course?  Resiliency, self reliance, community?  I would say the approach you advocate is pretty much the opposite in every way.  No need to be resilient or self reliant because you can always take from others what you need.  No need to be local because if we just have a large enough gun we can make it all work.  Community - bah, who needs to work with others, just force them to do what’s best… 

As far as energy, it was also opposite one of key items in the Khosla interview, that we will become more distributed using local resources. If it’s good to live local as far as food is concerned, isn’t it just as valid for energy?  If you live in an energy poor environment then you need to use less energy. 

 

rhare, you make so many pointed, and unknowable assumptions about me that this hoped for mature conversation is now over. I just can’t visualize houses on the speed lane of any Interstate Highway System not effecting the free flow of traffic.  Done now. Have a nice day. BOB

Actually I wasn’t very clear in my response.  The response to you was primarily the link to the Sandia National Labs website showing basic research into alternative energy at the national level is already being done.  The rest of my comments were primarily regarding the government intervention in the Khosla interview.

However, I still question the need for governments to be involved in even basic research.  In order to fund that research you have to take away money from the taxpayer to fund the priorities set by government.  Why is it assumed individuals won’t fund the same type of research? We see all kinds of funding of things that have little/no chance of payoff to the individual.  We see donations for cancer research, open source software projects, art projects, etc.  Look at the whole model of entities like Kickstarter

In the end the problem is that any funding the government uses it must take via force, otherwise taxes would be voluntary (perhaps they should be - and governments could live within what people wanted to fund).

[quote=robert essian]It is not my intention to have your home stolen for the common good but if practical, and cheaper to do then I’m sorry, you gotta go. 
BOB
[/quote]
OMG, that’s downright scary; the foundation of tyranny. Got power…?

I made no assumptions, well other than that I assumed you probably don’t want things taken from you by force. 

What I was trying to do was point out the conflicting views.  You say you want to treat others as you would be treated, but then you would take something forcibly from them.  It’s the force by proxy that many people don’t seem to appreciate when they talk about the "greater good". 

Neither can I, nor am I advocating that.  What I was pointing out is that you can just as likely reach a desired result through persuasion, market principles, and community than you can via force of government.  Everytime you use the force of government you reduce community - since forcing someone to do something is the opposite of them doing it voluntarily. 

The slow errosion of property rights (a life being a key property) is incredibly dangerous.  If you can marginalize a persons property you can eventually marginalize their right to live.  So while you may take your toys and go home, I hope you will at least give some thought as to what you are proposing.  It’s very easy to say, "this is what we have to do, and if some people stand in the way, well they’ll just have to be moved"- particuarly when it’s not someone your know or they are in some far away land.

 Did you read the Button Button article? Here is a apropos section:

 

 

I heard a conversation the other day on NPR that was novel to me.  I don’t think this has been tried in the US, but it apparently has in Canada.
As we all know fracking normally requires large amounts of water.  There is now apparently an alternative, propane and/or butane.  According to the source in the interview, you can use these manufactured gases as the fluid to frack for NG.  He said that these gases could then be retrieved, but had to be separated from the NG.  There have apparently been a couple sizeable explosions in tests so far.  I gotta wonder what the eroei is on this kind of operation.  Has anyone else heard of this?

Doug

OK, let me restate, you have a barn, it is listing badly out back of your 20 acre spread, a good sized breeze will blow it down. We need it torn down for the common good of all. We want a windmill there instead, it will create 5 good paying jobs for at least 30 years. We’ll give you a fair market price for this barn, say, absolutely nothing because we should have condemned the darn thing years ago as a community, as dangerous, even to yourself. Are you willing to move that then? Or have a sit in, and complain "THE MAN" is unreasonable"?
Is our government leaderless, YES!, over all. However, not in everything. Are concerns I have being addressed, NO, they are not. Do I vote for the candidate that tells me what I believe are my core principles, Yes, so I vote for him, and expect him to be honorable, and do what he said he would? Here’s the rub though, other members of Congress get paid too, to do just the opposite of what I believe. So nothing gets done. Other than that I can do very little but what I can do is focus on my family, and I do that effortlessly.

Look, some things are done unfortunately that effect others lives. In fairness we make the transition as comfortable as possible but to live as though everything the government does is to screw each and every one of us is NOT how I am going about my day, so save all the gasps and OMG to someone who gives a sh*t. Listen, if someone, anyone wishes me harm, in my home, I assure you their feet won’t hit the ground again until they have been blown fare enough to remove the threat of any harm to my Lady, Family or Self. I choose not to be so blunt most all the time except for using as an example of how I would react to any tyranny to my family or neighbors. Perhaps this unfortunate admission shows everyone the extent of my commitment to family and community, to anyone being wronged unfairly. 

How would you respond to me saying your parents were probably the ones who spit on the Vietnam soldier who while  in a wheel chair after doing what he thought was the honorable thing, then while returning home from what was a mind blowing event, war itself, was spit on, and degraded. I seen this happen. I also seen my own brothers, the national guard, shoot at and kill the students at Kent State, my president shot in Texas, and riots in the streets in a near by family home. These events galvanized me with how I have lived my life, what I expect of myself as a Man. I soldiered myself during the Vietnam experience and I apologize to no one, certainly not a complete stranger. Now these parents raise a bunch, such as yourself who got all the answers, gonna generalize that you somehow know me, take liberties on my character, behind a blue screen. Give me a break. Like you matter in my life. I’m from the John Wayne era, we talk face to face, get our stuff out of the way then sit, have a beer, and finish our thoughts.

The above paragraph is a harmful sample of grouping those you think have an apposing point of view, so instead of engaging, and getting a sense of who that person is, you take the easy road and just attack for the self gratification as a baby would without his binky. I am guilty too folks but admitting the flaw is to effect change. Talk folks, communicate, and listen. We do have our differences even though we all probably see critical issues the same. In any society unfortunate things happen. Most of us are fair minded, and usually, eventually, get things right. At least that is my optimistic view. BOB

BOB,
Either you are not valuing that barn / land correctly and your offer is BS, or certainly my neighbor will sell you 100 ft square to put your windmill up if I don’t. I don’t understand why you feel the power, need or desire to take it by force. One of us just plain doesn’t get it. It may be me, but I’d probably accept a reasonable offer to put a windmill up on my place, so maybe it’s you?

Rhare, sometimes there is no honor in fighting the good fight. I’m guessing your valuble time may be better used elsewhere.

Confused and annoyed,

R

I’m obviously tenacious (perhaps that’s pig-headed).

Bob, you have accused me of attacking you, of not knowing you… what exactly is the above?  I don’t believe I have ever questioned your patriotism, your values, etc.  What I have tried to point out is that forcing others to give up property or liberty  for the greater good is a dangerous course and it’s really easy to fall into that trap.  Lots of examples in history.

This is exactly the reason it’s dangerous.  You have decided I don’t matter. Maybe I should just as well be done away with since I’m impeding your progress.? Do you not understand it’s exactly that attitude and the willingness to trample on others for the greater good that results in great evil?  What happens when someone with views that are opposite yours on what should be done convince everyone it’s for the greater good?

This is a great example, so say I’m one of the many people that think guns are dangerous and bad to society, so we should just take them away from everyone, it’s for the greater good!  After all it’s been done in many other countries.  Do you have a problem with that?  Do you think you have a right to a gun, even if the majority say’s no?  How about if it’s not even a majority, but just a few elected officials?

So why is that not enough?  Why is working with your family, friends, and community not a solution? 

Bob I wish you no harm and only the best for you and your family.  All I can ask is that you consider why my questioning you on this has brought out such hostility and anger.  I don’t know if you looked at the "Button Button" article.  It really does a great job of showing the danger of which I’m concerned.

 

rhare and BOB,
I’ve been thinking about your debate. I strongly lean toward the Libertarian side; however, I also see the need for succumbing to the "greater good." To me, the limit dwells in the particulars. For instance, highways only function when the horizontal and vertical attributes align with the design speed of the facility. (Imagine a sharp right corner on a 70 MPH  freeway because an individual wouldn’t sell.) If the only economically feasible option is to "take" a given property, then it needs to be procured - at market value.

If, on the other hand, a private entity wishes to erect a wind turbine, or build a shopping mall, or pursue any other private concern on my property and isn’t willing to cough up $1 million per square inch, they are out of luck. The government has no right to force me to accept any offer! It doesn’t matter what consequences result to society.

Bottom line - the bar for eminent domain needs to be considerably higher than it currently is placed.

Grover

Bob,
Rather than going off on this disconnected diatribe which does not reflect very well upon you, I’d come back to your statement, "It is not my intention to have your home stolen for the common good but if practical, and cheaper to do then I’m sorry, you gotta go." (that, IMHO, was rightfully condemned by earthwise) and ask yourself if it represents the American ideals and values which I think you hold dear or Stalinist/Maoist ideals and values.  I was shocked by this statement and couldn’t disagree more. 
Also, Grover makes a good point about the bar of eminent domain being placed considerable higher than it presently is. 

Chris (all of us really) has dealt with the issue of how painful it was to initiate some serious issues our country now faces due to the fact that Debt and Growth will be effected by the supply of oil. How no matter how much he stated the statistics, and proved up his point of view he would get that walleye look from the person he was talking to (in so many words). This is how I am feeling right now only I’m digging a deeper hole with every word. Why? Texture, sincerity, hand gestures, tone of voice, etc…are not being viewed or heard by the person or persons I am talking too. If given more time with any here in a casual setting, face to face, discussing these issues, I believe that clarity would be established (because it is of interest to us so no walleye looks). Perhaps on some issues we wouldn’t agree but that’s OK, I don’t always see eye to eye with my Lady. I will take some liberties when I say I believe we are so much nearer a consensus than meets the eye here in this discussion. I believe that everything is on the table when the seriousness of the problem of Peak Oil is made known to all. In addition, what I thought were firm beliefs as I matured throughout life have really been tested these last few years, actually since 9-11. With regards to our government, I almost have a do the opposite of what they say because I know a big part of what they are saying is smoke being blown up my…! So, mostly, I just tune them out with a few exceptions, and Ron Paul is in that very small group. Now, at the grass roots level, in my community, I have a strong committment to what is going on because when the sh*t hits the fan it will be my neighbors that I come to depend on. 
ao, the fact that you were shocked doesn’t surprise me because (out of character) it was my intention to shock in telling a currently hypothetical story. Listen, and I speak broadly now, everyone knows that as a country we need to cut Social Security, Medicaid/Care, that we will need to raise taxes, etc,to balance (riiiight!) the books. Yet no one wants to have their salaries cut to pay for this. No one wants to pay any more taxes. The rich, middle class, and the poor are well aware of the issues concerning balancing our books but on the backs of someone else. There in lies our problem, and until the gravity of this situation across the broad spectrum of Americans is realized then nothing will get done, not a darn thing.
We are not each others enemies folks, we just want to effect change, be proactive, and see that things are moving in some positive direction, and is what makes us solid as individuals. It is why I have chosen to join the CM group. I don’t want singular thought, I want serious dialogue and discussion with some humor to shake the anxieties loose. Sincerely, it is not my intention to upset anyone but in any discussion over the Internet you have to read, try to visualize what I look like, my body language, how my hands move, etc…to try and figure out exactly what I am saying. I know this, I am not bothered at all if I get or do not get the benefit of the doubt. Frankly, most discussions are to strengthen our core beliefs by having open discussions with complete strangers, that we have never met, in the hopes that we learn something that we/I may apply somewhere down the road. I have received so many differing angles and views here while reading everyone, and it has served me well. I do wish everyone well, and respect each and everyone of you, and take the time to read everyone’s points of view. Frankly, I have never been judgemental personality of any of you. I may not agree with your printed word and will ask for clarity. I am however a little stronger with my comments from essayists like Gregor or Smith, Erik T., and others if what they say I do not agree with. Why? Their voice is assumed by me as just a little stronger so they deserve to be critiqued because some here are betting on there every word, literally… Regards BOB

Politics again people?

If we could capture and harness the energy that is wasted on debating political identities…

Rhare,Fair points, and agree with you in an ideal world, every form of research and development would be funded by the private sector.  Without the overhang of heavy government taxes and overly complex regulation, I would bet on the private individual over the government lab every time.  Yes, restrict the government to its constitutional and straightforward tasks of fielding a military, protecting the borders, setting and a policing practice of common sense rules (not investing in "winners" and "losers") for a transparent and fair field of play for commerce, and a few others (art 1 sec 8)
I should acknowledge in fairness that you are correct that in the biological arena I discussed but failed to mention, several companies do fund what would be labeled as basic research, and there is no conceptual reason an alternative energy company or big energy company cannot also (probably they already do- I’m unaware since its not my area).  You may rightly point out that the transistor, the computer, the mouse, the GUI all came from private laboratories.
I guess what I’m seeing as different, and Chris may want to weigh in here, is that we have a situation that is now an emergency, thanks to 60 years of national dawdling on our rudderless federal energy policy.  Absolutely, the private sector works very well in an organic way, over time, and grows the best, sustainable crops (i.e. goods and services including energy).  Albeit imperfectly with fits and starts.  But, to extend the metaphor, if your country is starving, you may have to use fertilizer for a short time to boost yields or else you won’t have anyone around to produce the slower but better organic approach using soil amendments etc.
The national center which focuses on one question is like that short term fertilizer.  And it can have an end point which is designed in from the start.
Thank you for the Sandia link, it was educational and I didn’t realize that much was going on.  It underlined my point in that they are working on about 30-40 things right now across PV, wind, water, geothermal.  Not that those aren’t interesting and valid projects.  However the singular focus that I advocated does not exist.
For the government as robber baron discussion with Bob and , may I suggest that we turn back to the energy questions.  We agree, I believe, that we claim our individual rights and don’t like confiscation of money or property.  However, imminent domain is the law of the land.  To be used with  extreme care.  Taxation is the law of the land.  The state has always used tools in ‘high stakes’ situations, such as quarantine of the contagious or confinement of the mentally ill and dangerous individuals, to work to the common good.  I believe this has always been and will always be.  Clearly the individual in question has not been happy about this in most instances.  Individual rights are sacred and jealously guarded, but not infinite (‘fire’ in a crowded movie theater).  But we aren’t Huns, so assuming we aren’t going to ride into town by town to force the libertarian life, we should focus on the ballot box and advocate with all our energy there, and hold our elected officials feet to the fire after elections.  
Again I respectfully ask that we come back to energy questions for this forum.
Regards,
Hrunner
 
 

Who mentioned politics you leftist commie republican?
 

Bob, are you saying you agree with what you wrote about the currently hypothetical story, or your posts were hung for the shock value?

 

If you want shock value, lets fast forward a few billion more people. Governements force people to leave suburbs and rural areas and move to standardized housing in the cities so that the earth can "breathe" and heal itself. Since it’s for the greater good, you are in, right? What, you are living sustainably on your own property? Who cares, theres a one bedroom flat waiting for you, get moving.

Who decides what the greater good is? Maybe one government feels that babies should be outlawed. Clearly a case could be made, right?

You seem to roll over to the whims of imperfect governments quite easily. Or maybe that’s not really you, and you say this all just for the shock value?

R

 
DetroitTigersLogo

Magic number…156

Ready, you asked:
""Bob, are you saying you agree with what you wrote about the currently hypothetical story, or your posts were hung for the shock value?
Ready, isn’t everything a hypothetical story until it develops into reality? No one asked me, what, where, why, how, if, they simply assumed.
To those who want the topic back on oil, this is about oil, and we are now discussing where oil has now taken us in this time in our history. Ever day I wake up it is oil I think of first but only after a nice squeeze and tender kiss as I see my Lady off to work.
In everything I have ever projected on this site I have been consistent that family above all be loved and tendered. I have spoken the need to extend beyond my own home to be charitable, and helpful. I have prepared mind, body and soul for all contingencies. I have entered and exited the internals of my being, and have determined that I am a good man with good intentions. I seek knowledge, moving forward always, and are a realist. Bullshit isn’t a game with me so I reject it up front, Mano-e-Mano. I am fair minded, and wish everyone was. I do not want a single thing that you have but would give you the shirt off my back without you ever having to ask. The United States is my home but I value all human life of all nationalities as my Brothers and Sisters. I am not perfect nor will everyone GET me.
Regarding eminent domain: I am thinking this was the "shock value" trigger to your question. My feelings are that we are well beyond the point of a smooth, and seamless transition to the next ten years. That when the crisis hits it will be sudden, immediate, and cruel. that all hands on deck will be required, and NO LAW, and NO LIBERTIES will be our birth right until the issue is stabilized. If anyone here thinks, after knowing what we due, that violence and chaos are not a very real possibility then I have nothing to say to you but I wish you well, and good luck with that. Curfews, rationing, confiscation, and a very stringent and tough minded police force will be very direct with any individual who insights more than themselves, to disrupt the lives of others. What is often lost in many conversations is that others have the right to pursue there lives in the manner that they wish too, and perhaps your point of view is causing such mayhem that it is interfering with their lives because you are so determined to have it YOUR WAY.
Again, we must be fair minded and use common sense. Who determines this?
I do know this, that from birth, "We hold true certain inalienable rights to pursue, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." This not not a fading ideology it will be tested, and I believe it will be the will of the people who will prevail. That it is our turn to shine in this moment of time in history, and WE WILL PREVAIL. Keep in mind that this also includes every Man, Women, and Child the world over. It is not an ideal for American citizens only but for the citizens of the world. We would be respectful to understand this… Respectfully Given… BOB
PS: A song that I have enjoyed my whole life because it goes to the essence of who I am, plus it just sounds good, to me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cw2ze1Iw9d0
 

Dog, that was great, nice timing, tears still rolling down my face at the site of the OLD ENGLISH D.Hey, I have never said this to you but I respect so much your contributions made selflessly. No reply is necessary, please. BOB