Mad As Hell

rhare-

That not how you get a new narrative, that's how you get more of the same. As far as all these great places that have this socialized healthcare, show me one that is not running large deficits? Sure looks good until it blows up.
Definitely, I'd prefer more of the same thing that has worked passably well elsewhere, rather than trying something new that will almost certainly go horribly wrong in ways we can't anticipate because we've never tried it before. My suggestion: you guys go off and try it on a small scale somewhere first. Its called prototyping. (Of course, communes work great on a small scale, so that's perhaps not the perfect test). Regardless, I don't think the first shot out of the gate should be on 320 million people. If you've ever rolled out a never-been-tried-before software system, you would know they are typically chock full of unanticipated issues. That's why we have "beta" tests with small communities - so we don't blow up the lives of millions of customers because we arrogantly believe we couldn't possibly have done anything wrong. Currently, we're spending 18% of GDP on healthcare. A large-ish number of other places, with socialized healthcare, spend half that much, and get better outcomes. Why not just clone what they do and deploy it here? Seems like it would lead to an immediate 9% savings. One thing about great software engineers is that they're incredibly lazy. Instead of rolling a new system from scratch, they steal what works from other places, modify it a little bit, and then deploy.
But beyond all that, the problem is I find it morally wrong to use violence to force others to comply with any system. If it's so great then it will work if it's voluntary. You want this great shared healthcare, then you can participate, put your money into it, but when you have to use violence to force those who disagree with you to participate, how great is it really?
I encourage you to go prototype your moral society, and then come back in 10 years and tell me how it went. Being the lazy engineer, if it works great, I'll be totally behind your efforts to get it deployed. UNTIL it has been shown to work well...I'm just not interested. That's the other side of that coin.
davefairtex wrote:
My suggestion: you guys go off and try it on a small scale somewhere first. Its called prototyping.
I would love to go off and try it, but oh wait, I can't because I'm forced to join your solution. You seem to have missed the point.

I’m really sad to hear that you have been chained to the Continental US by some dastardly person and so you have no option but to stay here and suffer.
I don’t think anyone has ever called me a sheeple before, but there’s always a first time. Is that better or worse than being a shill for the bankers?
I notice that people only tend to engage in name-calling when they run out of more substantive things to say. I take it from that, we’re done here.

The conservatives self insure, the liberals use the Corinthian plan which is a sorta self moderated aca approved group. rhare has an experiment that has been going for years.

…what “golden age” of laissez-faire capitalism and economic growth the people who say things like “Make America Great Again” or “back in the golden years” are referring to. Yes, the 50s and 60s were economically awesome for the United States, but even that story isn’t without its darker sides, and our prosperity seems to have had more to do with our postwar economic position of dominance coupled with the era of cheap and easily accessible energy supplies rather than some inherent “greatness” of our people or our system. There seems to be only one way to get back to that level of prosperity, and all the numbers on oil/nat gas/coal supplies indicate it just isn’t going to happen. The “Golden Age” came from the Black Gold, and that Black Gold is going, going…gone.

Regarding free-market solutions to every problem, if one looks at historical records, including the writings by (usually interviews of) members of the working classes, it is clear that whether laissez-faire capitalism “worked” greatly depended on who you were, what class you belonged in, what nation you found yourself a citizen of - oh, wait, most of the little people didn’t have a say in their societies until late in the industrial game - what family you were born into, etc. Yes, the Rockefellers, Morgans, Carnegies and Krupps of the world thought it was spec-freaking-tacular, but I’m not sure all of the millions of working class people felt the same. They definitely did not profit near as much. There are also enough historical, economic, and sociology studies that show that wealthy elite families tend to stay wealthy and elite (even despite less-than-capable offspring), to show the notion that a free market of individuals will always reward the capable and punish the inept is dubious at best. One doesn’t need to read too deeply in history to discover the abuse that the wealthy and powerful put down on the rest of society, if limits to that abuse aren’t encoded in communal law somehow. So, I’m doubtful that complete individual freedom and a completely unregulated market will actually solve our healthcare issues, because it hasn’t ever solved any issue without also creating inequities (often massive ones) at the same time.

By the same token, I’m not fond of complete and unfettered government regulation and interference in the marketplace either. Government tends to act with a heavy hand that is unresponsive to local community needs and conditions, however well-intentioned the actions of the government may be, and the larger and more complex the government the worse it gets. ACA is a fine example - do we really need laws that are hundreds of pages long? Where companies need to have full-time lawyers who can decipher all of the stipulations, restrictions, regulations, conditions, etc? Where people signing up aren’t often certain of what they are signing up for? Where someone’s premiums go up by 61% in a single year? Clearly government intervention in this case hasn’t worked. I suspect it may be either that the system is too overly complex, or too warped by political considerations and lobbying, to be expected to work at all. History is pretty clear that systems based on complete government control of the economy don’t work any better than ones based on unregulated free markets either, so having the government control every aspect of healthcare probably isn’t the answer either. So there has to be a middle ground between government utilizing its power to insure the markets aren’t abused and dominated by a few on one side, and governments allowing the market to operate freely on the other. The catch is where that sweet spot is.

As for single-payer systems - and I’m walking on less solid ground when I say this, since it isn’t my area of expertise - my sense of what I know about the nations that have them is that their budget deficits have less to do with the costs of healthcare in those nations than they do with the costs of other social welfare programs and systems; such as extended holiday allowances, low retirement ages with high retirement benefits, and immigrant/migrant benefits, among others. In our case, the reasons we are in a budget crunch certainly can not be simply chalked up to welfare/medicare/medicaid without also giving a bit of a nod to defense spending, which by any measure is just insane.

Overall, it seems to me that a core issue is not whether a government should tax its citizens - look, you’re paying for membership in the community - so much as it is whether the citizens should have a say in, and control over, where those taxes go and what they are spent on. We are a communal species that survives and thrives as a group. There have always been “taxes,” although these were not usually “economic” in nature so much as they were social obligations and community obligations one was expected to adhere to as part of being in that community. These have always been the cost of belonging to a tribe or a village, but such obligations were bilateral and designed to provide for the well-being of everyone in the community. This would explain why most Germans don’t seem to complain about being taxed around 60% of their income, since most Germans seem content with a system that so obviously provides so many services cheaply and in such a transparent manner (For reference, I lived in Germany as an exchange student for a year, have been back many times, and still have many contacts in Germany with whom I discuss these kinds of things).

In any case, I’d be fine paying for a national single-pay system if it was transparent, simple, and benefited the many rather than the few, which is what it seems to be doing right now. I’m tired of getting a cucumber while a small few other monkeys get a bag of grapes. I mean, the CEO of my healthcare provider makes more in a DAY than I do in a YEAR. That’s f’ked up.

How can I sign up for her plan? Seemed to work for her.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/colo-oldest-gorilla-in-u-s-celebrates-60th-birthday/

Dave, I don’t think name calling is what just transpired, you are important contributor here and for you to understand is very important. Let me try and explain and if I’m way off, someone please let me know.
This system we have currently have has been corrupted at every stage, yet not corrupted in a traditional sense, like follow the facts and numbers then zoom in and you have a bad apple acting poorly, separate them out and healing occurs. More like the system is the bad apple, only suggestions of idea that the bad apple thinks are good are moved to the front of the line. Which means you won’t be able to query the systems in traditional terms, like you suggest.
Dave, simply put the systems and life itself has been habituated. So anything that gets run thru their gears get directly influenced by this habituation leaving it’s habitual growth effects upon the potential outcomes. Thus Rhare is forced to join your solution, I didn’t take that as an expression of being a victim more like a definite reality. Anything Rhare or anyone else bring back with be subjected to this habituation and rejected immediately. It isn’t possible for it to be recognized, for it to be recognized means the end results will have to have a positive feedback loop of negative returns.
Said another way, there is a time to do right and a time to do wrong. We’ve fallen into a trap of always trying to do right, thus we’ve lost the ability to discern right vs wrong cause there is no contrast. It would be like trying to make out the defined edges of a building in a room with only extreme light and no darkness. Confucius said The most difficult thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat.
To contextualize this idea for you, all healthcare ideas must make profits! End of discussion! So if someone proposes an idea that actually works for the majority, yet it doesn’t make money the idea can not and will not gain support. The system will collapse it. Apply this same situation to any aspect of the economy. You’ll get the same results…The only possible outcome for our money economy is more scarcity and that scares me.

First off, RoseHip, I found this part of your passage to be incredibly insightful, especially in light of the recent visit by Shaun Chamberlin to Chris’s podcast:

"Said another way, there is a time to do right and a time to do wrong. We've fallen into a trap of always trying to do right, thus we've lost the ability to discern right vs wrong cause there is no contrast. It would be like trying to make out the defined edges of a building in a room with only extreme light and no darkness. Confucius said The most difficult thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat."
And I do agree with this as well:
"To contextualize this idea for you, all healthcare ideas must make profits! End of discussion!"
But this is where we begin to part ways:
So if someone proposes an idea that actually works for the majority, yet it doesn't make money the idea can not and will not gain support. The system will collapse it. Apply this same situation to any aspect of the economy. You'll get the same results...The only possible outcome for our money economy is more scarcity and that scares me.
I actually find anything that promotes a greater role for our money economy to scare me, because our financial capital has squeezed out or destroyed our social, living, spiritual and cultural capital while perverting our material, intellectual and experiential capital to its own ends. It's a concrete, living example of Gresham's Law, where the bad (capital) drives out the good. I'm drawing here on both the work of Ethan Roland and Gregory Landau (The Eight Forms of Capital) and David Fleming in Lean Logic. Does our current health care model depend upon financial profits, almost single-mindedly so. But I believe that is part of its problem. Just as a high-functioning ecosystem relies upon a diverse polyculture that allows every niche to be occupied by the elements best suited to fill it, a high-functioning economy allows all these diverse forms of capital to occupy their rightful place. What we have now, however, is an economic monoculture -- the equivalent of an endless field of soy or corn in which the farmer is constantly battling declining soil fertility and increased pest pressure. He fights against these forces, incorrectly seeing them as the problems, when in reality they are just symptoms of the problems endemic to the structure of the system itself. Those problems cannot be resolved without abandoning the existing model, and instead embracing one that allows elements to occupy every niche and best perform their allotted function. A more effective health care system would capitalize on all of these diverse forms of capital, starting at the lowest nested levels of organization (the village, town and county). It might not do the same job of staving off the symptoms of dis-ease endemic within our unbalanced industrial society, but I think it might actually do a better job of promoting overall health. But right now we're stuck arguing about government-managed vs. corporate-managed, like the farmer looking over his monoculture of soy or corn. We fail to realize that both of these are only addressing the symptom instead of getting at the root. And that root is that we are a decidedly sick society, increasingly devoid of deep human interaction -- in short, what recent guest Shaun Chamberlin characterized as a culture not of death, but of undeath. I realize that this is slightly rambling and devoid of specifics on how to "fix" anything. But I cannot help but see these kinds of discussions through the lens of arguing about the number of angels dancing on the head of a pin while the ground is opening up under our feet. A large cause of that is that we have forgotten the Biblical admonition that the root of all evil is the love of money, and ours is certainly a culture fully enthralled with it.

But a certain Samaritan, as he travelled, came where he was. When he saw him, he was moved with compassion, came to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. He set him on his own animal, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, and gave them to the host, and said to him, ‘Take care of him. Whatever you spend beyond that, I will repay you when I return.’ Now which of these three do you think seemed to be a neighbour to him who fell among the robbers?" (my italics)

Interesting read.
Not being from the US, I’ve heard about the ACA but never understood what all the fuss and objections were about.
I presumed it was just Republicans doing their thing and opposing anything Obama did.
I’m sure there was an element of that.
But it’s opened my eyes as to why people are upset with it.
You’d think the Obama administration would have done a deal that benefited “The People” but I guess between powerful lobbyists and political obstructionism it all got derailed.
I cant imagine that anyone who wants to leave this as his legacy would have deliberately set out to screw over as many people as he could.
And I thought my paying a couple of grand a year for top health cover was being ripped off.
Here, the government provides free health care to everyone but you have to go on a waiting list (unless urgent) and also it’s a strain on the federal budget. Not overwhelming but not inconsequential either. So that’s why people such as myself who can afford it are encouraged to go with private insurance.
That way you know you can get instant treatment (important if you’re self employed and cant afford to sit around on a wait list), you get 100% of hospital costs back, choose your own doctor, private room etc.
The government also negotiates the cost of pharmaceuticals so they don’t get out of control and subsidises high cost ones so that they are (relatively) affordable. Again at taxpayer cost which is why the pharma industry is held on a bit of a tight leash.
All in all, a better experience from the sound of it.
I gather that our politicians aren’t as deeply in the pocket of big pharma as yours.
I can see why America has chosen Trump.
I hope he delivers for you.

Wow! Thc’s comment got my attention!

thc0655 wrote:
http://www.vocativ.com/390175/liberal-preppers-stock-up-on-guns-food/ Ok, I think liberals becoming afraid of the government and becoming "preppers" is progress. Now if we can just convince the liberals and conservatives that the enemy is not the liberals and conservatives, but the government, the Federal Reserve, and the Deep State, then we'll firing on all cylinders.
Add CORPORATIONS to the list of enemies. It's difficult to separate the federal government from corporations these days, since corporations (through ALEC, etc) write most of the laws that our police state enforces. The state has a monopoly on violence, which is used to suppress and oppress its citizens while protecting the money and property of the wealthy and the state above all else. Why don't we see that? Because pitting citizens against each other (liberals vs. conservatives, white vs. black, middle class vs. poor) has been very effective in diverting us from understanding who the real enemies are. As for the "Liberal Preppers" - many liberals such as myself have been preparing for economic and environmental collapse in our own way. It may or may not involve guns. It certainly involves building community, energy independence, health, and food production. Which is why this part of Thc's comment really got my attention:
Quote:
Colin Waugh bought a shotgun four weeks before November’s election. An unapologetic liberal, he was no fan of firearms. He had never owned one before. But Waugh, a 31-year-old from Independence, Missouri, couldn’t shake his fears of a Donald Trump presidency — and all of the chaos it could bring. He imagined hate crimes and violence waged by extremists emboldened by the Republican nominee’s brash, divisive rhetoric. He pictured state-sanctioned roundups of Muslims, gays, and outspoken critics... With Trump now days away from assuming the White House, Waugh’s preparing for the worst. He’s made “bug-out bags” stuffed with ammo, energy bars, and assorted survival gear for his wife and their three cats. He’s begun stowing water and browsing real estate listings in Gunnison County, Colorado, which he’s determined to be a “liberal safe-haven.” Last month, Waugh added a 9mm handgun to his arsenal...
"Oh crap," I thought, "he's moving where?" I often read about other PPers and permaculturists' successes with homesteads and gardens and low-energy lifestyles, and I wonder whether my choice to live in Zone 3 is wise. Our average January low temperature is -8 deg F in Gunnison. (It was a typical -4 degrees this morning and we've got 3 feet of snow piled up on the ground.) Will our wood stoves keep us warm if there's no gasoline to run chain saws? Can we teach each other how to preserve enough food to survive with a 62-day frost-free growing season? What is the carrying capacity of this valley? We've got 15,000 people in the county, how many of us can survive here in a post-industrial society? What happens when the truck stop running? The quality of life is great here now, but how many of us can survive this harsh mountain environment without the conveniences brought in by cheap energy? Incidentally, I'm getting more and more "nodding heads" when I bring up the concepts of cheap energy and "if the trucks stop running" in polite conversation. It's time to turn those nodding heads into action. Ok, gotta go to a meeting about building a Collaborative Community Commercial Kitchen, now....

Since the discussion goes on about Health Insurance it seems useful to give a lesson I learned in 1984 from a Blue Cross-Blue Shield regional executive. For political reasons my agency had been dumped from one local government plan and I was getting static from the exec about moving to another local government plan.
We were small, but an independent agency, so he said our seven folks could not be part of a town plan, even though we’d been part of a city plan since being organized in 1970. As our employees were young, we tended to benefit any plan pool, as they all had to be self fulfilling on claims, plus pay admin and be profitable to BC-BS.
I thought they were like life insurance companies who sold policies to gain funds to invest in projects, thus being able to pay claims while making money with a growing surplus. The basic model was explained in Blazing Saddles (1974) - with life insurance you are betting you are going to die, the company bets you are going to live.
Not so with health insurance this exec told me. The money in was not used for investing long term to get income/profit, but to cover claims. The business is that of money handling for which they pay themselves. Is there value added? It could be if buying power were leveraged, but anything that cuts net transaction cost, means less money as handlers. Efficiency is really the opposite of what they want.
The story on why health coverage is tied to employment goes to WW-II when companies couldn’t compete on wages. They offered health benefits as a means of recruitment. After the war, administration of this benefit wasn’t a core function, so it was outsourced.
Health insurance - the money changers in the economic temple. They act holy. Who can chase them out? They are in cahoots with the credit-money changers, those who ease people into debt slavery, in support of the holy consumer economy where it is not correct to live within one’s means.
All the priesthoods agree, there must be more debt for the economy to thrive, or seem to do so. Leverage with other peoples’ money is the sacred task of the built-environment, regardless of its impact on the natural environment.
Waste not, want not, was an enduring simple heuristic in the evolution of human civilization. When ignored, failure followed. When we consider the situation now and the needs of the future, the true definition of intelligence, we need to recognize that some solutions are in the past. They are values and actions dismissed by the short sighted, quarterly focused money changers who do not recognize the purpose and goal of the human community is its self-perpetuation, not power and domination in the fleeting moment.

Since the discussion goes on about Health Insurance it seems useful to give a lesson I learned in 1984 from a Blue Cross-Blue Shield regional executive. For political reasons my agency had been dumped from one local government plan and I was getting static from the exec about moving to another local government plan.
We were small, but an independent agency, so he said our seven folks could not be part of a town plan, even though we’d been part of a city plan since being organized in 1970. As our employees were young, we tended to benefit any plan pool, as they all had to be self fulfilling on claims, plus pay admin and be profitable to BC-BS.
I thought they were like life insurance companies who sold policies to gain funds to invest in projects, thus being able to pay claims while making money with a growing surplus. The basic model was explained in Blazing Saddles (1974) - with life insurance you are betting you are going to die, the company bets you are going to live.
Not so with health insurance this exec told me. The money in was not used for investing long term to get income/profit, but to cover claims. The business is that of money handling for which they pay themselves. Is there value added? It could be if buying power were leveraged, but anything that cuts net transaction cost, means less money as handlers. Efficiency is really the opposite of what they want.
The story on why health coverage is tied to employment goes to WW-II when companies couldn’t compete on wages. They offered health benefits as a means of recruitment. After the war, administration of this benefit wasn’t a core function, so it was outsourced.
Health insurance - the money changers in the economic temple. They act holy. Who can chase them out? They are in cahoots with the credit-money changers, those who ease people into debt slavery, in support of the holy consumer economy where it is not correct to live within one’s means.
All the priesthoods agree, there must be more debt for the economy to thrive, or seem to do so. Leverage with other peoples’ money is the sacred task of the built-environment, regardless of its impact on the natural environment.
Waste not, want not, was an enduring simple heuristic in the evolution of human civilization. When ignored, failure followed. When we consider the situation now and the needs of the future, the true definition of intelligence, we need to recognize that some solutions are in the past. They are values and actions dismissed by the short sighted, quarterly focused money changers who do not recognize the purpose and goal of the human community is its self-perpetuation, not power and domination in the fleeting moment.

please consider using paragraphs next time.

hughacland wrote:
please consider using paragraphs next time.
I imagine he's having the same problem I do: I TRY to use paragraphs and spacing, but the format never seems to translate once I hit "save message." Even the Increase Indent button doesn't seem to work for me. I suspect it may be my browser, since I most often use Mozilla Firefox.

A few weeks ago you sounded the alarm on the citizens of Hampton roads paying for HOV lanes.It was not lost on me.This is part of the public-private partnership inflicted upon one of Trumps new appointees.Just to let you know.10 days ago during the snow storm in McClean VA the toll roads cost 30 dollars to get home.In Colorado,where Goldman now owns the roads for the next 50 years,the working class is dying…it costs 15 dollars each way.I see you and understand…It wont be 35 cents…

Good point, but I felt that it was a good example, because critical drugs could be subsidized as aid.

http://www.chministries.org/
Screw soetorocare.

I was on CHM, and my son is about to join Liberty Healthshare