The civil rights movement, the anti war movement, the back to the land movement were all boomers in the 60’s and 70’s. There was an emphasis on personal freedom, and exploration. It was a time of great spiritual awakening. To distill it down to "individualism " for an entire generation is a little simplistic. There was an explosion of communes across the country. There was a great desire to create community, not live as islands.
I agree. The commune movement was sometimes infantile and, as generally through history, VERY difficult to maintain over time, but it did show a desire for and recognition of the need for community. Some of them were amazingly successful. The level of “individualism” that broke them up was more about human natures rubbing up against each other in close contact, rather than just a generational trait. Utopias don’t generally last long. But that generation (and I was one of the earliest) did have it in them to try, so perhaps some of us at least have something to contribute to the next attempt. We certainly were more vocally anti-war than is visible now.
Still, the sweep of history and statistics that Neil was looking at are an interesting perspective - humanity in the mass may not look the same as individuals, but the differences are interesting too.
You get one last chance. Do you have any actual data?LOL. I gave you the data, repeated below. Hey, if you wish to ignore reality, that's not my problem, just don't reply. I know no demographer who debates our massive migration event; the world has now experienced the largest movement of people in human history in the last 50 years.
But if you want to get past all these "data" errors, just look at some basic facts: the USA was 180 million in 1960, 80% white, & native born whites have been barely replacing their population (TFR <2.1). Yet today, the USA is 330 million and is likely <50% white. Where did the extra generations of people come from?Honestly, I don't care, except as it applies to reality. My point is simple and undeniable; I certainly lack your baggage of personal involvement. If Howe wants to look honestly at the USA generational changes, the complete replacement of a people with others cannot be ignored.
I have a lot of non-white friends. They feel just as American to me as my white friends. Stating that my non-white friends aren't American and don't share my values, which they do, runs square in the face of my personal experience.Everyone has "non-white friends"; how could anyone in the USA circa 2020 have only white friends? Half the nation is non-white. You miss the point: 50 years ago this wasn't the case, and it allowed Howe to get away with broad-sweeping claims about generational change dominating the situation. The reality today is that fresh demographics has completely changed what "America" is, which you seem to be in denial about. For example, California used to be solid Republican when white, today it's solid Democrat. This wasn't the children of boomers changing the politics with their "generation" against their parents, it was the wholesale replacement of whites with Hispanics (making Howe's thesis crazy today). Or, look at the voting patterns of blacks (90+% Democrat) or say Southern whites who live nearby (70+% Republican). Does anyone really think these two generations of children side-in the same state have more in common due to age than the culture they come from? You seem to think so. Crazy. Well, any educated person could tell you this is wrong, without looking at "data".
When Neil refers to the Boomer Individualism he means that the Communes themselves were breakaways from the larger society which was the real community. Their parents of Boomers were all so similar and fell into line.
Really great discussion. Thank you Chris and Neil. I’m not so sure this return to community will result in families joining up necessarily, but I do see communities forming with like minded people.
I have a community developing on my 5 acre property where I have 5 RVs hooked up, three tents, a community outdoor kitchen and community outdoor bath/shower. But it’s not my family, it’s a broad mixture of people (of all ages from 5 months to 70 yrs) coming together wanting to live in a different way.
We just had a community meeting where we discussed being independent but at the same time being interdependent. We are working on developing a cottage industry or two in order to provide employment/business ownership for the community members.
We’re in the middle of developing a Community Charter or Community Standards board. It’s all very interesting to me as I am a strong boomer in the sense of individualism/self reliance and I am trying to figure out how these people can live this way!
They are yearning for community and struggling to govern themselves, but I am trying to stress that no matter what kind of community is established, members have to be productive!
(One of our new community members has met Chris before and claimed Chris handed him a DVD of the Crash Course! I said, No way! Thought I’d let Chris know that. The community will be watching the Crash Course pretty soon.)
When Neil talked about the younger generation thinking Government should reinforce the principal of community, that rang true with the community forming here and I see that same preference in my youngest daughter. I am totally in the over 50 crowd where I believe government should reinforce personal reliance and so are my three older kids, but NOT the youngest one or the group settling on my property. So Neil’s theory really rang true from what I’ve experienced.
On the other hand, I have lived alone and I don’t think it’s healthy. Since renting out my rooms and sharing the land, I would not want to go back and live in this big house on 5 acres alone.
Us Boomers may be rehabilitatable after all.
Another way I’ve looked at my situation here is as a modern day boarding house. Back during the depression, people joined up at various boarding houses across the country. That’s what it sort of feels like here - from both sides. I need the income and other’s need the low rent. Unlike the boarding houses of yesteryear, I don’t provide meals for everyone, but there’s free food in the garden and everyone pitches in with the garden.
So far, so good.
Oh one last comment on one of Chris’ remarks. 2 of my 4 kids also waited a loong time before they got their driver licenses and waited a really long time before they got their cars while I was just the opposite. Man, I was in a such a hurry for autonomy, I hired a lawyer at 15 and got emancipated at 16 and never moved back home again! Not the path my kids took!
Pyranablade, I could not finish the book either - very unusual for me.
As you set up community standards and, I assume, some kind of government, I would suggest a benevolent dictatorship. I spent some time in an intentional community where the property owners ceded power to the collective …only to take back the reins when they didn’t like the direction in which things were headed.
It is really interesting to hear how the broad sweep of history has influenced the thinking of each generation of people. We are all individuals, we are - all of us - programmed by our environment; parents, teachers, social circle, government. You would think that would make every generation the same. And yet, that's not what happens. Why do we think that is? I certainly don't know.The environment is changing so quickly, I think it's understandable that each generation is impacted by that. The impacts of war, depression or recession, cultural changes etc. especially when they hit at a certain time of life. Parenting styles also change, roles (e.g. worker or homemaker), the cost of tertiary education, all of these could have impacts on each cohort depending on their age.
Why do millenials do so well with their parents (on average)? I know I left home and was very relieved to do so. I can't remember having any urge to return - certainly not to live anyway.Maybe:
- they were parented quite differently than older generations were? Are perhaps closer to their parents, or parents are more willing to have them stay at home for economic reasons.
- Limited choice. With real estate (including rents) so expensive in many places, options are more limited. ANyone wanting to save for something (like a house), needs to save a much higher proportion of their income than earlier generations have had to. So financial pressures are pretty strong.
Yes, that seems to be my role. I heard an earful of what it’s like to live in other intentional communities and when no one produces, then the land owner gets fried and kicks everyone out.
In my case, there is a minimum of rent to pay and some community contribution. We also have somewhat of a sponsor (the ex husband) who is helping finance and build some of the projects.
I’m really pushing the “productivity” button with these folks. Productivity is what is lacking in these communities - from what I could glean.
This is for Chris. Found this study in a zerohedge article here: https://www.zerohedge.com/health/coronavirus-uses-same-strategy-hiv-evade-immune-response-chinese-study-finds
That HIV strand is getting some attention. The study is not peer reviewed yet.
Just had to post this article from zerohedge. It dives into all the mechanisms of our modern day censorship and makes a very good point. As the old saying goes: Watch for what people do, not what they say.
And question, “What information is being censored?” How much of this censorship is being done by machines?
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2020-05-25/mrna-moderna-using-unethical-and-untested-animal-and-human-genes-vaccine-social
I am Swedish. We basically had socialism for many years. Extreme levels of single households and loneliness, mandatory schools with common core, no home schooling options (some ‘halfprivate’ schools, WITH common core ), lots of goverment programs for everything. Declining or flat GDP per capita. Lots of discontent, highest number of shootings and bombings in housing areas in Europe past years. Our ‘CDC’ did not work well AT ALL with COVID19, despite lots and lots of funding.
I really marvel that you believe that it is good that your younger generation is socialistic. It is the opposite of ‘caring for a local community’. It is control of thought, constantly diminishing freedom of speech and always leads to tyranny and anorexia of a society.
We had people dying of cancer in the waiting line for surgery, before COVID. But our government is almost as good as the CCP in propaganda.
The reason communes regularly collapsed during the youthful boomer era is because the reality of communal living was at odds with their fantasy of what it would be like.
It was a common fantasy that having sex with many different partners would work in a communal setting. That alone was one of the primary reasons many communes collapsed.
The fantasy of exploring your individuality with others who are similarly exploring their individuality, particularly in that manner, does not work well, particularly in a communal setting.
Unfortunately it kicked off a sexual “revolution” that deprived children of a safe atmosphere to grow up in and has likely led to counter expressions within Millenial and Gen Z culture today.
Jill Kortesma,
Sounds terrible – but also a relatively recent phenomenon. When did things start to turn in Sweden?
That is the libertarian perspective, very appropriate for some issues, but generally misapplied. Americans who are all freaked out about the U.S becoming a police state, fail to realize or don’t care that it IS a police state for visible minorities already.
Those who refuse to mask up for reasons of personal freedom ignore the fact that there are many innocent people held in the private prison complex, due to the abuse of the plea bargaining system.
The percentage of Covid infected, among this demographic is disproportionately high, for obvious reasons. Wearing a mask was never an option for them or the staff of the prisons. That is a much more significant issue of personal freedom…not having a choice to remain somewhat healthy
If you want to focus on personal freedom, it seems much wiser to reserve those powers of observation for those completely lacking power, who are most at risk – prisoners and the elderly in nursing homes.
Hladini,
What a great lifestyle you all seem to be living. You provided a few personal examples of the fourth turning here. It is a delightful symbiosis where you are rescued from loneliness while you rescue the young from dire circumstances.
The difference between communes of the boomer generation and those living in community now are really night and day. Millenials and Gen Z are adapting to a have and have not economic culture. We were living communally and often unsuccessfully, voluntarily. We had options. They really don’t.
Let us presume that generational theory is true. Let us also presume that cultural differences do not shift the template too far from the author’s premise, thereby assigning the template to all human cultures. (Full disclosure: I have not read the book.)
During which “Turning” does societal collapse usually occur? Right now?
I would presume that collapse occurs because the fourth generation is unable to destroy the old institutions, and they continue doing harm, resulting in collapse.
Understanding civilization as inherently unsustainable, I have to wonder: is there a larger cycle at play? The middle east used to be a lush cedar forest. Now it’s a desert. We did that without petroleum. How many cycles of empire can the Earth sustain?
How does generational theory fit into ~13,000 years of human history?
And he was the demon of my dreams…
…the flames that fell
from his torch like drops
lit up the deep dungeon of the soul.
…his iron hand took mine.
…And in my dream I walked blinded by his red torch.
In the dungeon I heard the sound of chains and the stirrings of beasts that were in cages.
–Antonio Machado
tr. R. Bly
You mention treading the decks of USS Missouri BB63. That resonates with me, as I served on USS New Jersey BB62 three years as a Quartermaster. Just thought it worth a response. Amazing naval architecture, storied ships.
War tax. Hmm. Dollars were dollars in the '40s. But the Nazis managed to put together a war machine despite the hyperinflation of Weimar Germany. Somehow people find a way to make war.
But with the prospect of social unrest, increased rates of infection, supply chain disruptions and all that, who needs war? This country’s challenge is to simply preserve its sovereignty and unity through these times without losing too much ground in guaranteed liberties–or at least restoring them after the crises are over, whenever that happens.
Trump is going to war with social media.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/28/politics/trump-twitter-social-media-executive-order/index.html