Treebeard, many of us feel the same. It's distressing to look at the larger picture and see where we are headed and know that we probably can't do anything to stop whats coming. All we can do is help those around us understand and wake up.
I think this is a great example of why the programs like Social Security are damaging socially. They allow us to pass off responsibility. Why do I have to worry about my hungry neighbor or parent, the government will take care of it. It allows us to disconnect from our fellow humans, we have this "safety net" that means we don't have to take responsiblity for our own actions or for caring for those around us.
I am absolutely sure that if people had not invested in the social security program and had gotten the money instead most people would have spent it. A few would have their own retirement accounts, but most would have raided them and would have ended up with nothing. Being forced to set that money aside gave them a promise that they would not be destitute in old age. Just sayin'…not eating dog food at least.
I feel a great sadness for the tragedy that our culture is falling headfirst into. I have had time to mull it over, ponder alternatives, make some preparations, warn my loved ones, and harden myself in some ways to the reality that will come soon enough.
It is my opinion that this prepaid grief will work for us in the long run. When it comes, we will be able to think clearly and act accordingly. Most people will be in shock, denial, confusion, and grief. Some will attempt suicide or try to escape obligations. Not knowing what to do, they will thrash around in the dark and maybe make some stupid mistakes. Hopefully we will land on our feet and help them through it.
That seems extreme and really depends on where you sit in relation to the subject. You seem to see it as a forced proxy, without any room for debate over your definition. Taking that line of thinking, I would guess everything is a forced proxy in a democracy. Any law or social contract that's voted on and ratified by a majority I guess forces the minority to go along...and therefore is evil? What is your solution? No laws? No safety nets? Let's hope we can encourage everyone to chip in? Actually, your idea of encouragement is just another word for campaigning. So in essence that encouragement you speak of is built into the current system.
Why should I or anyone be forced to pay for your parents retirement? What gives you the right to take someone elses labor?
That's the same argument I hear from those who don't want to pay for public anything..."why should I pay for your kids education, I don't have any kids, why should I pay for yours," etc. Rhare, you do benefit from supporting my parents in their retirement, you just choose not to see it. It's not about being fair on an individual basis, it's about creating a social safety net so that we all benefit. What kind of family were you born into? Things like class, ethnicity, family cohesion, all create unfairness from the minute a person is born. So in a sense we're all forced into time and place from the time we are born. For some it's quite nice, for others, not so.
Want to build a better world, quit forcing people to bend to your will. Quit stealing from them via proxy. Talk to them, convince them, encourage them, but forcing always ultimately fails since it breeds resentment, and eventually leads to conflict. If you choose the other path you are no different than those that seek to enslave you.
What path do you mean? Are you living outside of the laws we are currently under? The laws that were campaigned for and passed by those we elected? Do you not pay your taxes?
Anyway, you get my point. I get what you're saying but it's just not that simple. I don't like what I see as much as you, but it's the corruption in all areas that the special interest have set up to benefit themselves that I'm tired of, not a social contract that was set up originally to benefit us all.
That seems extreme and really depends on where you sit in relation to the subject.
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In the 1960's LBJ placed social security in the general fund to support the wars on poverty and Vietnamese (butter and guns). Seems to me we lost both wars. And a boatload of money.
Time to starve the beast.
Nate wrote: In the 1960's LBJ placed social security in the general fund to support the wars on poverty and Vietnamese (butter and guns). Seems to me we lost both wars. And a boatload of money.
Time to starve the beast.
Using your own method of generalization... austerity is being used in Europe right now...how's that working out? Again, it depends on where you sit in relation to it. Ask a poor Grecian how it's working out and you'll get a very different answer than a rich German. Who's point of view has more validity? Again, the size of the govt is secondary to the corruption. Government is not going away, period, so it might be more appropriate to discuss how to clean it up, not eliminate it.
Austerity now (Europe) or later (America). Who do you think should pay for the PIIGS proliferate spending? Those that made wise choices, or those that lived beyond their means?
Wise choices? Do you really think it is that simple? I wish I could see the world that black and white. Who do you think is going to pay for all of the US debt? Who do you think is going to be punished for it? Do you think those in the financial sector/FED/elite are going to pay for the mess they've created? Now apply those questions to what's happening in Europe…do your really think those who are being made to pay (losing their jobs) were/are the unwise, or are those that deserve it?
[quote=gillbilly]Wise choices? Do you really think it is that simple? I wish I could see the world that black and white. Who do you think is going to pay for all of the US debt? Who do you think is going to be punished for it?
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Seniors and savers played by the rules and made 'wise' choices. Seniors and savers will probably pay for much of the debt through means-based testing and higher inflation. Those with much (elites) and very little (poor) will lose the least. The middle class will take the worst haircut. My opinion only.
As long as the dam holds, the FED/elite/government will not pay for the mess they have created. When it breaks, past historical cycles tell us there is a chance heads will roll (literally). Keep praying.
I do. The nations collectively voted for the Euro and collectively voted for their leaders. They enjoyed the 'good' part of the Euro experiment and now don't want to pay for the consequences.
Nate wrote: Seniors and savers played by the rules and made 'wise' choices. Seniors and savers will probably pay for much of the debt through means-based testing and higher inflation. Those with much (elites) and very little (poor) will lose the least. The middle class will take the worst haircut. My opinion only.
Seniors and savers? Who are these seniors? The ones that enjoyed the last 50 years of the ramping up of peak everything? Who are these savers? Those who do not have debt? Was having debt considered irresponsible or unwise when things were ramping up? Or is it just now we have a problem with debt, when the wealth is concentrated in so few hands? Did our current seniors not take on any debt when they were growing up? And didn't many of them enjoy long careers that lasted much longer than the current average of seven years... many of which still have pensions from those jobs? Does the hitting of limits not play into the financial woes of Europe? What about the children in the EU who didn't vote for the Euro who are being punished by their parents losing their jobs? What if those who voted for the Euro were not adequately informed by those who campaigned for it?
Nate wrote: I do. The nations collectively voted for the Euro and collectively voted for their leaders. They enjoyed the 'good' part of the Euro experiment and now don't want to pay for the consequences.
Is that they don't want to pay for the consequences, or they don't want to pay for the corruption that caused the consequences?
I can ask these questions all day long. I am somewhat envious that you can see it so black and white (I'm not being sarcastic), but unfortunately in the end they are your answers, not mine. I think if you spent time in Greece you might feel differently after experiencing the suffering. I wish I had answers to these questions but I'm finding I hit contradictions with any answers I try to formulate, I guess that's why CM calls them predicaments. The world is just too complex. What I try to consider now is how we can get back to a balance within a multiplicity of perspectives and predicaments.
Peace!
I don't understand how you could be truly envious of persons that have a black and white type mindset. I guess what you're saying is that it would just be so much easier to go through life with such a ridged and simplistic worldview. IMO you are honestly trying to make some sense of it all. Not just with your head, butwith heart - plus soul. Yes, we are facing a predicament. We are no longer in the 1950's. It's time to wake up. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Bjl93oUJzs
John, Thank you for the music (well timed!) and kind words. Maybe envious was not the right word. I admire the conviction that Rhare and Nate have, and although I may disagree with them on this, I've enjoyed many of their posts in the past. Their points have validity, but I just don't see them as complete…but neither are mine.
[quote=gillbilly]John, Thank you for the music (well timed!) and kind words. Maybe envious was not the right word. I admire the conviction that Rhare and Nate have, and although I may disagree with them on this, I've enjoyed many of their posts in the past. Their points have validity, but I just don't see them as complete…but neither are mine.
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Gillbilly,
I enjoy your posts, too. None of us can learn and move ahead without honest, civil discussion. I will keep an open mind and - who knows - at some point in the future our views might meet.
Enjoy the rest of your weekend.
Nate
is exactly what this thread, amongst others, is helping us to do. Of course there will be differing viewpoints, but that is what is needed to help others analzye and perhaps re-think their own viewpoints. The more input from a variety of people the better we can filter and decide what makes sense and what direction it is that we need to move in.I have been enjoying this discussion around SS. It is one of the proverbial elephants, like healthcare, that we somehow, have to get a handle on. As with many government programs I believe the intent at the time of implementation was right, but there were no controls/oversight put in place from the get go to ensure the program did what it was meant to do. The first huge mistake was allowing premiums collected to be funneled into general revenue, guarantaneeing that the money would be spent. Governments love to flaunt these illusory piggy banks on shelves to score political gain, while most people have blind faith that these piggy banks are real and actually have money in them. It is a facade born out of the philiosophy of buy now, pay later, which in turn trickled down to the consumer, ultimately morphing into this debt monster.
But how do we move ahead? Is this truly an out of control monster that cannot be reigned in? Can it be starved to weaken it? Or does it have to be killed outright? Beyond our own day to day preparations and efforts at community building, what can we actually do to help society take that first step in the journey to fixing what appears to be a completely broken down way of life? Does serious action only happen, as has often been the case historically speaking, after all other options have been shut down? Are we going to repeat history? I want to be part of the generation that decided to end the cycle of history repeating itself.
Much has been said about the considerable power that the baby boomers have. Imagine if that power could be harnessed to effect the necessary changes we need to see happen? It would be formidable! If I know one thing about the people in my generation, once they decide on a course of action, they have a tremendous amount of sway in how things go. Like it or not, they are key to helping us get out of this problem. I see our challenge as being one of harnessing that power to effect good, using it to steer us back on the correct path again. It is possible. What can we do to make it happen?
Jan
Jan
gillbilly,
There are 2 kinds of people - those who think there are 2 kinds of people and those who don't.
There are 3 kinds of people - those who can count and those who can't.
Lame attempts at humor aside, I've found it easier to look at the available options before analyzing all the nuances. If you have to choose "yes" or "no", "up" or "down", "black" or "white" … "maybe" isn't an option. Analyzing beyond secondary considerations is a waste of your time. Analyzing secondary considerations may be fruitless.
I don't want to rehash all the arguments for and against social security. Frankly, it will eventually fail. Whether it fails this year or some time in the future is immaterial to the discussion. What is material is how it affects you and those you love. Should you concern yourself with the fates of others beyond your circle? Only insofar as it affects those in your circle. Let others be responsible for their own outcomes. If they put too much stock in politicians' lies, so be it.
That may sound heartless, but can you make their choices for them? Do you really want to? I certainly don't! Concern yourself with what is really important to you. Let the butterfly flap its wings as it will.
Should you concern yourself with the fates of others beyond your circle? Only insofar as it affects those in your circle. Let others be responsible for their own outcomes. If they put too much stock in politicians' lies, so be it. That may sound heartless, but can you make their choices for them? Do you really want to? I certainly don't!
And there, he strikes at the heart of the matter. It is simply unrealistic to think you can change another person, and you certainly are not responsible for their choices. What I can change stops at the end of my nose. The idea of changing things politically has serious limits, and those limits are likely to get greater and greater as resources become less and less. Do what you can with what you have, where you are.
I try to take care of my own responsibilities, my own areas that I can do something about. I am responsible to stay out of debt, for my health, for the cleanliness of my personal space, for feeding myself, for taking care of or jelping those that are elderly or young in my immediate family (and, to some extent, in my community.) A local focus helps me deal with the deperssing and frightening bigger picture. There is only so much one person can do, and doing those things as well as you can is all any of us is responsible for.
The "Prepaid Grief" you refer to (great phrase!) Is sort of how I handled my mother's death. She'd been seriously ill since I was three years old, and was dying of kidney failure and on dyalysis for the last two years of her life. When she passed away, I felt I had already done much of my grieving. And while her death was a blow…this softened it. More to the point, my conscience was clear that I had done all I could for her.I suppose the moral of that story is to do the best you can, honestly the best, so that when mouring comes you do not also have to deal with regrets. The appliction of such a process to each of our lives as we have taken the red pill should be obvious.
Modern technology means we have access to more information about events in the world but most of us don't have the power to affect those events. The result can be feelings of powerlessness, frustration and alienation. The ante is upped because the 3 E's impact all of us but are so large as to be overwhelming in their scope. In a way, the disintegration of our society is like a slow death with the anticipatory grief that goes along with that, much like Wendy's situation with her mother. We see it happening but can't do much about it except grieve for the losses already apparent. Normally, when we mourn a loss, our grief comes in waves that dissipiate as the actual loss fades over time. But the losses we are seeing/experiencing are on a larger scale than any individual loss. And they are growing, not fading. Things we counted on, like regular weather patterns, solvent financial institutions, a functioning government and readily available resources are clearly growing ever more unstable and unreliable.
How do we mourn the loss of so much that is familiar? How do we protect ourselves emotionally from the repeated blows of change in all that we've ever known? Since we can't predict exactly how things will change, it helps to focus on the present moment. Not in a way that denies what is happening, but that takes it from the macro level to the micro level where we can hold it in our hands and do something with it. We can flow with the river by preparing as best we can for the easily anticipated changes, something that gives comfort to many here at PP. But the main thing we can do is to allow ourselves to feel our feelings as they arise naturally. Feelings that are allowed free passage have a way of moving on through rather than becoming stuck. We lighten our load when we allows ourselves to feel authentically. When we can share with others, the load is lightened even more. It helps to identify healthy coping mechanisms whatever they are for you - humor, music, gardening, dancing, writing, meditiating and so on. And it helps to take a break now and then do something completely fun and playful. It's hard to live in the land of grief all the time; we get too worn out. So the key is balance.
If you find yourself becoming overwhelmed, seek out help. I've taken advantage of Carolyn Baker's offer of coaching in a couple of phone conversations at a time when I felt alone with my grief. It helped just to share it with someone who is collapse aware and has the skills to help process feeelings. Carolyn says that as she travels around and speaks to the collapse community, the focus is shifting more from practical concerns to what to do about all the feelings that arise around collapse. Being in touch with what we are feeling is the first step. Bringing awareness to our body and tuning into it helps to identify where we are experiencing it and put a name to it.
As collapse continues to grow, more and more of us will be challenged to not only help ourselves but to be able to identify the signs of distress in others. We've seen how the suicide rates are going up in the countries most affected so far. Carolyn has a chapter titled "Befriending Grief and Depression in The Coming Chaos" in her book, Navigating The Coming Chaos: A Handbook For Inner Transition that might be helpful. The thing is to be aware that we are not alone and that help is there for all of us wherever we find ourselves in this unique journey.
I'm thankful for PP and everyone here who shares of themselves. For as long as we have the energy for the internet, I will take advantage of the wisdom to be found here with great gratitude.
…to others. Just walk the walk, talk the talk and maybe by example someone just does it because it makes sense.
Jan, YES, I am afraid that the path we are on has no other outcome than a head on collision with certain change and an immediate, painful, Deflationary smackdown. After that the cries for help will be so great that the supposed safety nets become such a drag that they too just blow apart and everyone gets a serious wake up call. The cries will be for the politicians to do something, when the cries should be lets get to preparing to feed, water and house ourselves.
I see two choices: Do something or get the hell out of the way.
Personally and I am a very compassionate man, I believe those on the rolls of SS and welfare should be made to work doing something, anything, to earn their keep if before retirement age. I also believe the system to be broken and to negotiate now and get something is way better than having nothing, and that is the path we are currently on.
People made do by sheer determination the Depression years of the 1920's and 30's and WWII. I believe we are descendents of that bloodline. Blow this thing up and lets see what rises from the ashes. Please. Why wait for the inevitable to happen. Let it blow up and we still have the fossil fuels to rebuild. It's our only chance as I see it because the depletion rate on oil can't afford this kicking the can down the road much longer.