"and last I checked Galt’s Gulch was just a place in a novel. "
In Ayn Rand's novel Atlas Shrugged, the protagonist’s secret hideaway was in a beautiful valley in the Rocky Mountains called Mulligan’s Valley or "Galt’s Gulch." Galt’s Gulch was inspired by Ouray, (Colorado) where Rand found inspiration to complete the novel, though she greatly expanded the small valley to include her many ideas for the story [11].
http://www.answers.com/topic/ouray-colorado
Greg
[quote=Lisa G]Most of us are stuck for better or worse, we have kids, we have homes, we have jobs and last I checked Galt’s Gulch was just a place in a novel.
[/quote]
Agorism is a virtual Galt’s Gulch waiting for individual will to make it a reality. You don’t have to go to a remote location. You can hide in plain sight.
Mainecoon, insightful post. I’m most angry of all at myself. My 1000 SF home bought at a market bottom would be all paid off if I’d just stuck with my original 15 year mortage with 20% down. But I played right along with the lender’s game, refinancing as home prices went up and spending on a house addition and worse things. Not upside down yet, but I’m in more debt not less after all these years. I ask myself now, does that make sense?
[quote=idoctor]
Well guys from my point of view this is what I see every day in the medical field. They want to run the housing problem exactly like they run the Medicaid system. It appears this is all they understand?
What I see everyday are patients with 90% self inflicted disease states. Like the 30 year old 350+ lb way over obese person that smokes & drinks while on a very bad over indulgent diet of food the Govt provides via food stamps.
Now this slob has high cholesterol, diabetes & high blood pressure. Hum how do we fix this problem?? That is simple right? We put him on meds that cost somebody (Joey tax payer) $2000 a month or more. The way we fix that smoking problem is by sticking the tax payer again by providing this guy with a breathing machine & lots of inhalers. Works every time right??LOL. What do we get for this investment but a never ending dependent idiot that refuses to take any responsibility for themselves & what they have created?
These types will tell me I just don’t understand how I could be falling apart like this…just bad luck or genes I guess?
These are all black holes with no end in sight.
Maybe the best way to fix this depression is to put everyone on antidepressants.
[/quote]
What ‘idoctor’ wrote above is an important part of the problem. For all the anger being directed outward (to bankers, government, the Fed, etc.), it is important to remember that a portion of this mess was created by irresponsible people who should have known better. (This is not to discount those who acted responsibly but lost jobs through no fault of their own and find themselves in financial jeopardy.)
I have taken out multiple home mortgages over the decades. Not once did I let anyone talk me into any kind of variable rate plan (ARM, option ARM, Interest Only, Ninja, etc.). Like the old saying goes, "You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink."
I have a small mortgage today - it is fixed. I know that, no matter what happens, my monthly payment won’t change. I also bought my house to live in - not as an investment, not as a profit center, but as my home. If it has value beyond what I paid for it when I move out - all well and good. If not, well kids - their goes your inheritance! 
I live within my means - I carry no credit card debt. How many of you on this site are living beyond your means, I wonder? I’m sure many of you are also responsible - otherwise, I presume, you wouldn’t be participating in these discussions. You can rail at the system all you want but clean up your own house first before you blame all our problems on TPTB.
Let’s make sure, in spite of all the rhetoric that is being tossed about, that we not forget Pogo’s wise comment from many years ago, "We have met the enemy, and he is us."
For a different perspective on this whole matter, check out Andrew Tobias today:
GOOD NEWS
But what do I know? So listen to one of your fellow readers . . . and then I’ll tell you why.
Janet Tavakoli: “Obama’s $275 billion plan to stem mortgage foreclosures – nicely done! I was delighted to hear President Obama’s plan to stem mortgage foreclosures. It was well thought out and right on target, and such a relief! I don’t think people have had time to process this. There will be critics, but I will not be among them. This is the best economic news I’ve heard in the past four years.”
Janet, whom you’ve seen on CNN, CNBC, the CBS Evening News and so on – and whom Business Week called “the Cassandra of credit derivatives” (but Cassandra sure proved to be right, didn’t she?) – is the author of the recently released Dear Mr. Buffett: What an Investor Learns 1,269 Miles from Wall Street.
She’s been railing against emperors wearing no clothes in the credit derivatives markets forever. If only people had listened.
(Or maybe, some have: you’ll find something very like what was done yesterday in her book, which has been widely noted by serious people. Likewise, in its predecessor, which you might call the denser, professional version, beguilingly titled, Structured Finance and Collateralized Debt Obligations: New Developments in Cash and Synthetic Securitization.)
I remember emailing Janet once about Merrill Lynch, then $75 a share, which she had just blasted in a column she sent me. This was October, 2007.
“Where’s the stock going?” I e-asked.
“I don’t know,” she shot back – “but not in MY portfolio.”
She was right about Merrill (which fell to $11), and has been right about pretty much everything else.
None of which is to say our problems are over or your home is going to start appreciating or the recession won’t be deep and scary.
But when someone as sharp – and often sharply critical – as Janet Tavakoli finds reason to be encouraged, it’s worth noting.
Main
Thanks for the articulate post. So much media hype at the end of last year focused on those "stupid homeowners who bought more than they could afford" as the supposed cause of the current collapse. This crowd is too smart for that blame the little guy $%^&*. Keep the eye on the ball - keep the eye on the banks.
Strabes,
I fully agree that there is an attempt to shift focus and/or blame on homeowners in over their heads. It certainly does seem a likely ploy to by the heads of finance and state to avoid the consequences of their actions. However I don’t really see that it’s working very well though… most people I know are certainly irritated with paying for homeowner bailouts and by extension with the people receiving said money, but that irritation PALES to the anger and malicious thoughts directed towards the financial PTB and to some extent our elected officials as well. Maybe that’s just a reflection of the people I’m around, but I don’t see the biggest offenders getting off the hook THAT easily…
As for for anyone currently in trouble with their home loan (whether or not it’s any fault of their own)… I feel badly for anyone in that situation, especially for those who ended up that way primarily because of job loss. But any large purchase such as a home is a risk to some degree or another, and sometimes we just end up making a bad call or get caught up in an unfair situation. To the people who aren’t looking for bailouts and are trying to handle their bad situations the best you can, all the blessings and luck in the world to you and your family. But for the people who are screaming that the situation is unfair and DEMANDING help from taxpayers, well, in the words of Dr. Denis Leary: "Life sucks, get a f—ing helmet" ;^)
That, was one of the very best posts ever on this site. Thanks mainecooncat…
Mike
Just stop servicing your debts…
‘They’ can’t bankrupt 100+ million Americans, now can they?
Mike
Mainecooncat’s points all well-taken. I believe what CM and others are getting at in this thread is that even though it may seem like we are pitting ourselves (the little people) against one another, what we are coming very close to reaching is the tipping point, the perverbial straw that broke the camel’s back, that will send us all (the little people) whether labeled as "responsible" or not over the edge, into the streets, and on our way to taking our country back "for the people".
Its building. I can feel it. Whether its at home, in the office, or riding in the elevator to the office, people are talking. They are agitated. They are angry. Every day there are more and more desperate (both employed and unemployed) people in this country. They want a pound of flesh for the wrongs that have been committed by the man behind the curtain. All our politicians (both parties) are doing is fanning the flames of dissent. Whether its the "liberals" or the "conservatives". This mortgage bailout for the "responsible" homeowners might just be that straw breaking the camel’s back. If not, then whatever comes next may be. I believe the Celente’s of the world are right. We will be in the streets in 2009.
(In a perverse way I find these times to be exhilirating. Looking back, growing up in the 80’s was terribly dull and boring!)
Before you can escape the Matrix, you have to recognise that it’s there. Then you have to learn where its boundaries are, and invent ways to unscrew the lid.
It’s not easy… but it’s not impossible, especially if we do it all TOGETHER! You know what they say about two heads…
Let the revolution start here. Like Maincooncat said/implied, we’re on our own…
Mike
Lisa, actually the scorpion could have killed him with a single sting. We didn’t have medic support in the middle of the desert operation we were on. The soldier would’ve squashed him as he was being stung, but at least he would’ve taken down his oppressor.
But it would be way easier for a collective group of people to "jump out of our jar" and take down our shaker. I’m looking for people willing to be the scorpion. Sacrifice might be necessary to save 6 billion people from the current elite. Another elite would eventually gain control, but I don’t care. Those bastards need to experience the wrath they have wrought, just like Louix XVI, Ceausescu, etc.
Stop fighting each other and giving into the media programming. Focus on the $10T, not the $85B.
Two things I noticed today.
I’ll post this on the DG of the 20th. www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tKP4P5ime0&eurl
[quote=cmartenson]
Saying, “…help as many as nine million families refinance their mortgages or avoid foreclosure…” is also presenting something as fact that does not even stand up to the slightest scrutiny. The $75 billion price tag divided by 9 million gives us a value of $8,333.33 for each of the nine million homes. There is simply no possible way that $8,333 each is going to make the difference between 9 million people keeping or losing their homes. It might if that was applied to this year’s balance gap, but over the life of the loan? No possible way. [/quote]
Is it possible that rather than helping to pay the mortgage itself over the life of the loan, the intent is for the $8,333.33 to help cover the penalty and costs of breaking a high-rate mortgage so that people could refinance at new lower rates? If so, that would be worthwhile because then many people who could afford the lower mortgages could stay in their houses.
Chris,
I am impressed you managed to make it through this without expletives. Your self control is commendable. As for me, I am absolutely enraged and despondent at once.
When begging for bailout plunder becomes more financially lucrative than hard work, creativity, and ingenuity, we will have seen the end of the Republic of the United States of America. This is a sad day for America, made sadder by the utter lack of understanding that the population has on the consequences of these actions.
"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." — Thomas Jefferson
I’m familiar with the chart you speak of and I expect a pretty solid "Wave 2." My only question is do you think there will be significantly fewer defaults because this is no longer "subprime" mortgages? Still, even if it is only half the intensity of the first one, things look ugly…
Excellent, this reminds me of the words of a certain wise Congressman from Texas who has tirelessly fought the Fed on his own for his political career. In terms of stages of awareness, he is still in the "ridiculed" phase. I fear these basic truths won’t be accepted as self evident until after his death…
Hi Mike,
Don’t know if this is addressed to me or not, but I definitely mentioned this topic earlier. My take on things now – and that could change – is that the next wave will be significantly worse. One, there’s more loans that are going to reset. Two, the issue isn’t sub-prime or prime it’s ARM’s versus fixed. Regardless of one’s credit score, if one’s mortgage payment goes up by a few hundred dollars, that puts stress on your financial house. Third, house values will be less in one, two, or three years’ time, so there’s a greater chance of being underwater. Fourth, I don’t see an alteration in the unemployment trends, so more people will be foreclosing on their homes simply because they lost their jobs.
But just to repeat, these current trends could be redirected by many different factors over the next several months and years, so we’ll have to see what happens. Though, as you say, the perspective today affords doesn’t look very good.
I’ll collect some data and put it up here later. I know Davos recently posted some graphs pertaining to this subject.
The next wave isn’t just the alt-a, ARM, jumbos, etc. It’s the commercial real estate sector. The subprime wave is just a minor blip on the charts compared to that.
[quote=Mike Pilat] I am absolutely enraged and despondent at once…This is a sad day for America[/quote]
BS. $10 trillion to the banking elite over the last 5 months should’ve been the days of true rage…yet more blatant proof that we’re all slaves to the banking oligarchy. But now a day when some pocket change goes out to little people and everybody’s all upset. Amazing. Yet sad, very sad, that I’m seeing my hope in an uprising against the oligarchy going up in smoke because they’ve successfully manipulated all of us little people to be enraged at each other with this almost irrelevant story in the grander scheme of things.
You supposed free marketers better stop defending a system of banking slavery where you live the life of a serf for 30 years in the hopes of earning a 4-walled structure called a house from Lord Bank who is under the system of King Federal Reserve who manipulates the system to enrich the monarchy. That aint free markets folks. Direct your rage at your feudal lord and his king, not at the little serf next to you who just got handed some scraps to keep him from revolting. Your current rage is justifying and supporting the banking structure. Your claims of responsibility and avoiding moral hazard are playing right into the bankers hands (moral hazard is what happened in the Wall St bailouts and the Fed leveraging its balance sheet). You’re saying moral behavior = little people submitting to the corrupt banking establishment…they’ve made you make their argument for them. Damn they’re good at playing us for fools.
[quote=Goal Digger]Its building. I can feel it. Whether its at home, in the office, or riding in the elevator to the office, people are talking. They are agitated. They are angry. Every day there are more and more desperate (both employed and unemployed) people in this country. They want a pound of flesh for the wrongs that have been committed by the man behind the curtain. All our politicians (both parties) are doing is fanning the flames of dissent. Whether its the "liberals" or the "conservatives". This mortgage bailout for the "responsible" homeowners might just be that straw breaking the camel’s back. If not, then whatever comes next may be. I believe the Celente’s of the world are right. We will be in the streets in 2009.
[/quote]
GD, I’d like to know more about what you see or hear that makes you think things are changing. When Joe the Plumber or Middle Aged Maria is in the street and wants the government to end the fed, then I’ll think the times are changing in a positive way. Right now, I think they will be in the street demanding that the government fix the situation and that fix will inevitably involve printing lots of money. It will take a hyperinflationary crisis to wake people up to the root cause.