If we can gauge the import of OWS by the degree of ferocity seen on this thread… well… it’s a pretty important movement. KLynch thinks we should de-legitimize the protesters (as if we would… or could), many of whom probably are just waking up to the things he mentions (nature of money and corporations) because many of them are not as educated as we? Can’t you see what is right before your eyes? People are waking up… they are debating ideas… they are getting angry and leaving their TV’s… this is what we want.
I was so pissed at Outcast’s post early on that I just stayed away from posting on this thread… but then he spilled his guts and I found a lot to like about him - not that he should care… but I learned that important lesson once again… not to judge a book by it’s cover. I still think he was overreaching the bounds of how much right to impugn Chris our monthly subscription fee buys… but we can disagree and still have mutual respect. You need to get to know more of the protesters… watch many more video interviews… there are many among them who do understand the issues. If you think this is not going to be a messy process… you are really naive.
so then… HOW do you explain this guy?
Please Chris...don't lend any kind of legitimacy to these people...they are really myopic, undereducated dropouts with the proverbial axe to grind...not any type of deep thinkers who understand the depths of the real problems we are facing.KLynchATL, The majority of the people we encountered and spoke to that particular day were prudent, educated and seeking to inform themselves about many issues, as well as willing to listen to individuals like Dr. Martenson in order to gain understanding about the depths of the real problems we are facing. Everyone we encountered was interested in learning more about the 3 E's and The Crash Course. I view it as an opportunity to help bring awareness and understanding to this movement. Livio
I am laughing my a** off. Chris has way overshot the mark by trying for inclusivity, in his own way, by catering to your demographic. Your post distills in a few short paragraphs everything Martenson should try to avoid.
**Oh, and by the way, "Do you have any grey poupon?"
You’re going to be wanting some kind of brand new forms of communitarianism to deal with the 3 e’s. Decentralized local govts with deep powers of persuasion who will encourage people to work together and towards shrinking the economy in a humane way. The future will involve starvation, thirst and dire poverty, for all but a few, if rationing of essentials isn’t part of the over all social survival plan. This is neither the era of the ‘rugged individual’ or of corporate leviathans supporting govt. leviathans. It is the era of the middle tier, dispossessed and atomized, finally organizing loosely around just one or two big issues. If they succeed in tearing down the present system, we have a chance. If they don’t…God help us.
If the rights of the individual to food security, heat and shelter aren’t somehow preserved, NOBODY will be free. Society-- left, right, or center will be completely upside down.
This is why people are protesting. They fear what is coming. Conditions have been steadily deteriorating and will likely get much worse. The protests form a strong bedrock of mutual cooperation that will extend into the every day lives of the protesters. The protests represent a shift in the collective psyche.
Move On has to Move Over and make way for the new forces which are Soros and Koch brothers, free. Neither clearly left nor right, just different.
Participatory democracy. Peaceful, messy, dirty, and takes a long time. But it’s democracy.
What is Occupy Wall Street? The History Of Leaderless Movements
"Occupy Wall Street’s organizational presence is the New York General Assembly or “GA,” which convenes numbers in the high hundreds at its squat-site in Zuccotti Park. Daily GA meetings are led by facilitators who rotate on a regular basis, and facilitation training is open to all. Specific issues, such as food, medical, legal, outreach, security and others are handled by working groups - also open and inclusive - that periodically report back to the GA. Instead of issuing top-down directives, Occupy groups use a consensus process in which anyone can join in the decision-making and propose an idea. Proposers must field questions, justify the hows and whys of their ideas, and engage a large-scale group discussion. Votes are then cast via an innovative system of hand signals, and proposals are revised until a nine-tenths majority approves.… Similar to the feminist and alter-globalization movements, these groups want to avoid replicating the authoritarian structures of the institutions they are opposing. This is part of what differentiates them from the Tea Party. Occupy will never become an arm of the Democratic Party because the Democratic Party is part of the problem. These protesters want to prefigure within their own organization the free society they seek to create. And they want to demonstrate against the corrupt and hypocritical culture in mainstream politics and Wall Street - by operating with integrity."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-leadership/what-is-occupy-wall-street-the-history-of-leaderless-movements/2011/10/10/gIQAwkFjaL_story.html
Poet
It amazes me how amorphous and whelming the rants of protestation have been. These people are angry enough to invest their personal time to protest the situation that leaves them wanting. Is it just the manifestations of a shrinking economic pie?
When the pie was expanding, it was okay to have people garnering large pieces for themselves because most could see opportunity to improve their own lot. Now that the economy is contracting, fewer see the promise of opportunity. It makes it easy to point the finger elsewhere. Don’t get me wrong, I think there is plenty of people and institutions that have taken advantage of laws and regulations. I’m not saying that the protests are unfounded. Ask yourself: Why now? Why didn’t the protests happen a few years ago?
With global energy constraints likely to become more pronounced as we go forward and the mind numbing debt at all levels of society, the situation will worsen. These protests will likely grow. The fringes will likely become violent - due to frustration. Then, ‘the powers that be’ will have a justifiable reason to try to squelch the protests.
I don’t have any answers that are palatable. I’m watching it unfold like most of you.
Grover
I agree that democracy as presented above smacks heavily of mob rule. But without trust in the corrupt political system, it’s difficult to imagine anything else working for the 99%. The problem is that this mob rule eventually turns into the sickening political correctness that plagues us today. rhare is right when he questions, what will be the next thing they go after, when all the wealthy are deposed. That’s what happened in communist Russian and China. It didn’t work there, and it has even less likelihood of working here in the USA, I HOPE!
Or this guy…http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avG4LgTF0ho&feature=player_embedded
[quote=Damnthematrix]
[quote=Grover]…With global energy constraints likely to become more pronounced as we go forward and the mind numbing debt at all levels of society, the situation will worsen. These protests will likely grow. The fringes will likely become violent - due to frustration. Then, ‘the powers that be’ will have a justifiable reason to try to squelch the protests.I don’t have any answers that are palatable. I’m watching it unfold like most of you.
Grover[/quote]
There will likely be violent offshoots but I think the panic in government and in the financial sector (which we are now getting glimpses of) is the potential of the #occupy movement to morph into a "gentle revolution." The delicate balance for the government is to in some way gain control without being overtly draconian. The government can control violence (mostly), but it can not control a non-violent movement aimed at destabilizing support for the system. In the age of internet and cell phones, mainstream media no longer has control over the message.
[quote=agitating prop]I am laughing my a** off. Chris has way overshot the mark by trying for inclusivity, in his own way, by catering to your demographic. Your post distills in a few short paragraphs everything Martenson should try to avoid.
Oh, and by the way, "Do you have any grey poupon?"[/quote]
Keep laughing till your a falls off, but you may not be the last one laughing. In any event its not a laughing matter for any of us. You might me routing for the inevitable crash but are you really prepared? In light of all the environmental, nuclear and climate events we are having are you sure you picked the right place to live post crash? Money whether fiat or PM is not going to save as many a**es as family, friends and community.
I think you missed something important that is happening. The OWS participants/protesters are practicing democracy and leaning important skills firsthand that will serve them well post crash. Skills like sharing, cooperating, goods and services exchange, caring for each other, etc. The crash course is more than the 3Es, its also about family, friends and community. No matter how the movement ends OWS is winning and will keep on winning.
Hello everyone - I am new to this site, having just discovered The Crash Course three days ago. When I read Chris Martenson’s blog about ‘Occupy Wall Street’ I felt comfortable joining. I was relieved to read his inclusive and open-minded description of this movement, and his plans to return and share/learn more. This is what I see happening daily at Zuccotti Park - active, intensive conversation, thought, and growth. And a sense of community. As the movement spreads and grows, so does the conversation. For years I’ve been experiencing a growing feeling of distress about our country’s - our world’s - situation and a nearly debilitating helplessness about what to ‘do’ to help myself, my family and my community. I am thankful for any sort of conversation or movement that has the potential to facilitate real change, even if that change ends up being simply within the hearts and minds of a collection of individuals.
onward…
The American Nazi Party supports Occupy Wall Street. The Communist Party in the U.S. supports Occupy Wall Street.
But does that mean Occupy Wall Street supports them or wants their support or is part of them?!? You sure the many non-whites in the OWS want that kind of endorsement?
You still believe that bull? Well, white supremacist David Duke supports the Tea Party. Silly now, aren’t we?
Sheesh.
Poet
[quote=Poet]The American Nazi Party supports Occupy Wall Street. The Communist Party in the U.S. supports Occupy Wall Street.
But does that mean Occupy Wall Street supports them or wants their support or is part of them?!? You sure the many non-whites in the OWS want that kind of endorsement?
You still believe that bull? Well, white supremacist David Duke supports the Tea Party. Silly now, aren’t we?
Sheesh.
Poet
[/quote]
Everyone knows there are going to be fringe elements in any protest that are not supported by the majority. The problem is that many of those that have and continue to label the the mainstream Tea Party racist due some fringe elements, are willing to look the other way if similar issues come up at OWS.
It is that double standard that bothers many people.
[quote=frobn]
Frobn, This is the paragraph I was responding to in K’s post:
"Please Chris…don’t lend any kind of legitimacy to these people…they are really myopic, undereducated dropouts with the proverbial axe to grind…not any type of deep thinkers who understand the depths of the real problems we are facing. We could have an unlimited supply of free energy and these dopes would still be screaming bloody murder about how "unfair" everything really is!"
I’m NOT routing for the inevitable crash. Like the protesters (by the way, I would be there in the thick of it, if I could) I want to see vast political change that will help facilitate just what you are describing. A political revolution or evolution is necessary to bring about the very changes that the Crash Course addresses. Martenson is doing the right thing, by taking his gloves off and actually reporting from Ground Zero of the coming financial collapse.
Chris complimented RT for reporting more fairly about OWS. He’s supporting those who are attempting to tell the truth, as they see it, against those who intentionally lie. Framing it as a right or left issue is playing the moral equivalency card. Right or left has nothing to do with it. It’s intentional oppressive deceit (Fox) versus people who seem to be genuinely trying to get to the gist of the problem.
Many many good posters have simply thrown up their hands and left the site because moderators on the forum, in the interest of not offending anybody, have taken them to task for blowing up at the constant harangue of being called, ‘liberals, leftists, or statists’. These posters ARE the OWS types, crying from the rooftops that the deep politics aren’t left or right.
My personal opinion is that Chris has to intervene, when he can, to remind forum members that it is extreme wealth against the rest of us. He’s on our side and he NEEDS to step into the fray and support those on his own forum who attract readers by drawing attention to this point. Well intentioned moderators who take people who are very well read, who think deeply, and warn them not to lose their cool, are doing a HUGE disservice to this community. There is no polite way to tell a poster who has been reading drivel and watching Fox television that they are, in fact, spouting nonsense.
I’m happy to see CM is finally coming out of the closet and hope he provides a decent platform for more OWS types and tears the bullhorns out of the hands of people who spew the same rhetoric of intentionally unreliable sources.
and it’s this Marine sgt… who gets it;
http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/1-marine-vs-30-cops-occupywallstreet-ows-video-marine-wins
Who is looking the other way, Goes? Chris appears to support the OWS. Do you think he is purposely looking the other way? How about all of the OWS supporters on this forum? Who exactly are you talking about?
If anything, the OWS is striking a blow at international fiat fascism, by protesting Wall Street. If you support the general thrust of a movement, you don’t split hairs, starting at day one, overturning every rock to see if there’s a Nazi or Commie under it. You do what Chris is doing or you read sources you trust who are intimately involved with the movement. You can’t check every stupid endorsement. Pelosi endorses. Dems will be tripping over themselves to endorse it. Doesn’t mean anything other than it’s a warning shot to OWS to actively and publicly shun endorsements that represent a clear confict of interest. The tea party was easily co-opted because many involved don’t have a handle on the realpolitik of the situation.
Aweome find, Jim. I’m sharing it with my friends.Those guys just looked ashamed. They didn’t dare say anything back.
Of course there will always be those who wonder if he’s "actually a veteran".
Poet
[quote=agitating prop][quote=goes211]
Everyone knows there are going to be fringe elements in any protest that are not supported by the majority. The problem is that many of those that have and continue to label the the mainstream Tea Party racist due some fringe elements, are willing to look the other way if similar issues come up at OWS.
It is that double standard that bothers many people.
[/quote]
Who is looking the other way, Goes? Chris appears to support the OWS. Do you think he is purposely looking the other way? How about all of the OWS supporters on this forum? Who exactly are you talking about?
If anything, the OWS is striking a blow at international fiat fascism, by protesting Wall Street. If you support the general thrust of a movement, you don’t split hairs, starting at day one, overturning every rock to see if there’s a Nazi or Commie under it. You do what Chris is doing or you read sources you trust who are intimately involved with the movement. You can’t check every stupid endorsement. Pelosi endorses. Dems will be tripping over themselves to endorse it. Doesn’t mean anything other than it’s a warning shot to OWS to actively and publicly shun endorsements that represent a clear confict of interest. The tea party was easily co-opted because many involved don’t have a handle on the realpolitik of the situation.
[/quote]
AP,
Slow down there and read what I said. I was making no comment about CM’s report of OWS or OWS supporters in general. I actually agree with what Poet was saying. I have never been to a Tea Party or OWS event but I do believe the two movements have more in common than they have in difference. The tea party movement is more centered on taxes and bailouts whereas the OWS is more of a fundamental criticism of the current system. The tea party is certainly more political at this point but only time will tell what happens to OWS if the democrats try and take ownership of it.
As to "Who exactly are you talking about?". As a general rule, if YOU have felt free to condem the tea party for fringe elements within it, don’t act surprised when OWS gets criticized for elements within it. If YOU have not been guilty of criticizing the tea party for fringe elements within it, you have every right to be angry at those that attack OWS for the fringe within it. Anything less is a double standard.
To what end?
What would our country look like if the OWS protest work? We “Prosecute the fraud! “
Would this be the end? … all walk away happy?
What if the banks and corporations were found innocent under our laws?
Do we try to change the laws through our current form of government or do we have anarchy?
Are these protest related to the protest around the world? Egypt? Europe?
If not Capitalism, then what? Specifics please!
Is the answer to extreme wealth, TAKE it back? What if there is nothing we can do because the laws as written say it was legal? Do we now break the law? What happens when the answer to food storage is to TAKE it back?, or to gold, TAKE it back? You may be the 1% of something.
No pun intended here but, I need to know what I’m buying. I think Chris’ support for the protest was premature. I am not convinced that we will have a “better system” if all goes the way of the OWS protesters. I don’t think it would be considered a success if it just “stimulates thinking”. They want major changes to the system, as do I, but there fix to the problem may be 180 degrees from mine. The PROCESS has always been an extremely important element in our country. Protest are great to bring awareness but to get things done you need to follow laws and get elected to office.
I’m not feeling this sense of awakening. I am not excited and at peace. I am feeling sadness and regret for a once great nation. I am watching it fall apart, be taken apart, polluted, looted, and plundered and QE’d piece by piece. What went wrong?
I want to know the overall values and principles of the individuals behind the protest? Is it individual rights?..fairness?.. social justice? …equal justice for all? I don’t want vague terminology. Democracy to one individual is different to another. I know everyone will suggest that I attend an event and as Jim H said, “get to know the community”. That’s not happening right now. I got taxes to pay,mouths to feed and a crisis to prepare for. Anyway, I have the CM community to keep me informed. 
As my parents said “You can tell a lot about someone by who they hang around with”. I will be watching the people and groups that support this movement as a strong indicator of what they stand for. I understand not all groups or people reflect the movement but fringe supporters like the Communists party USA and others need to be publicly rejected.
Can we unite on a specific problem yet be very different in how we believe this country should change? I know others that say yes, but I have doubts. There is nothing that I have in common with someone that thinks Communism is the way to go. I have never felt so distant politically from so many people (not refering to the OWS protesters) in this country.
Until trust can be rebuilt the system will continue to fall apart.