QE 4: Folks, This Ain't Normal

Okay, the Fed's recent decision to boost its monetary stimulus (a.k.a. "money printing," "quantitative easing," or simply "QE") by another $45 billion a month to a combined $85 billion per month demonstrates an almost complete departure from what a normal person might consider sensible.

To borrow a phrase from Joel Salatin: Folks, this ain't normal.  To this I will add ...and it will end badly.

If you had stopped me on the street a few years ago and asked me what I thought would have happened in the stock, bond, foreign currency, and commodity markets on the day the Fed announced an $85 billion per month thin-air money printing program directed at government bonds, I never would have predicted what has actually come to pass.

I would have predicted soaring stock prices on the expectation that all this money would have to end up in the stock market eventually.  I would have predicted the dollar to fall because who in their right mind would want to hold the currency of a country that is borrowing 46 cents (!) out of every dollar that it is spending while its central bank monetizes 100% of that craziness?  

Further, I would have expected additional strength in the government bond market, because $85 billion pretty much covers all of the expected new issuance going forward, plus many entities still need to buy U.S. bonds for a variety of fiduciary reasons.  With little product for sale and lots of bids by various players, one of which – the Fed – has a magic printing press and is not just price insensitive but actually seeking to drive prices higher (and yields lower), that's a recipe for rising prices.

Then I would have called for sharply rising commodity markets because nothing correlates quite so well with thin-air money printing as commodities.

That's what should have happened.  But it's not what we're seeing.

Instead, stocks initially climbed but then closed red.  Gold was mysteriously sold in the thinly-traded overnight markets and again right after the announcement in large, rapid HFT blocks that swamped the bids. U.S. Treasury bonds actually sold off on the news.  The dollar hardly budged. Commodities were mixed across the board but more or less flat on the day, with the exception of the metals, and especially the precious metals, which were sold vigorously.

The markets are now well and truly broken.  Not because they don't conform to my predictions, but because they are no longer sending useful price signals.  Instead, my hypothesis here is that the markets are now just a giant and rigged casino, where a relative handful of big firms and other tightly coupled players are gaming their orders to take advantage of this flood of money.

When your central bank badly misprices money and then bids up everything related to bonds, nothing can be reasonably priced.  Risk is mispriced; the few remaining investors (as distinct from speculators, which are now the majority) are forced to accept both poor yields and higher risk – so we know the price of everything, but the value of nothing.

QE4

So what exactly is this new thin-air money printing program all about?  Well, unlike any prior Quantitative Easing (QE) announcement, this one was tied to a fuzzy and quirky government statistic: the unemployment rate.

QE4 is Just-In-Time Fed Policy to Avoid Calamity

Dec 13, 2012

We got the most thunderous Just-In-Time monetary policy today that is a substitute for the absence of any degree of stimulative fiscal policy.

You might say that QE4 is now going to act as both monetary and fiscal stimulus– another $85 billion worth of Fed accumulations of Treasury bonds and mortgages- that is meant to keep stock prices moving higher and residential home sales climbing briskly.

The goal is to drive economic activity, especially residential home building, so that unemployment drops from 7.7% to 6.5%. The surprise move is meant to signal the Fed’s awareness of the softening economy; it sees the gritty numbers before we do.

Getting unemployment down to 6.5% without inflation rising to a level higher than 2.5% is not expected to happen until 2014 at the earliest. And it could go longer if there is no deal and we go over the cliff.

But, you should know that the only reason unemployment is 7.7% is because hundreds of thousands of males have dropped out of the search for regular work. A very depressing tale.

The key point here is that the Fed is now actively running both monetary and fiscal policy because it will now be in the business of funding nearly 100% of all the new government deficit spending in 2013.  And it is pumping a bit more than $1 trillion of hot, thin-air money into the economy as it does so.

The odd thing here is that by tying their policy to the unemployment rate, we could be in for a very long wait for the stimulus to end.  The reason is that the unemployment rate has a couple of moving pieces, one being the number of people who are unemployed, and the second consisting of people who have given up looking for work, which is tracked in something called the 'participation rate.' 

As more people leave the labor force and the participation rate goes down, the unemployment rate goes down, too.  Somewhat confusingly, as more jobs are created, the unemployment rate goes down, too.  As you can see, these numbers work in opposition to each other because as more jobs become available, more people re-enter the work force.

Before the crisis struck, the participation rate was around 66.5%. But now it sits at just 63.6%, meaning that, at roughly 1.4 million jobs for each percent, a bit more than 4 million jobs would have to be created just to absorb the folks who left the labor force but presumably would like to work again. As those 4 million folks come back to work, the unemployment rate will not budge at all.

It will require two full years of 150,000 jobs per month just to absorb the 4 million missing workers, which means that this QE effort will be with us for a very long time.  Three to four years is my best guess, and that's only if the economy magically recovers.  And I have very strong doubts about that.

This means that the Fed is most likely on track to increase its balance sheet by another $3-4 trillion.  Ugh.  That's 300% to 400% more money created in the next year than was created than during the entire 200 years following the signing of the Declaration of Independence.

The other part of this new QE policy is that they will continue this as long as inflation remains below 2.5%.  Again, this is a very fuzzy government statistic subject compared to the usual massaging and political biases, but it has top billing as the one that is most likely to force an early termination of the thin-air money printing efforts.

However, I remain convinced that the Fed will change any rules and move any goalposts it needs to in order to continue its mad money printing experiment.  Because there really isn't any other alternative at this point.

Secretly in the Open

Once upon a time, it would have been considered in bad taste to suggest that the world was being centrally managed in secret by a small-ish cabal of bankers whose actions served to either prop up the excessive spending habits of the very governments that conferred upon them the power to print money, or to bolster the health and profits of the banks they mainly serve.

That was then. Today you can just read about it in the Wall Street Journal:

Inside the Risky Bets of Central Banks

Dec 12, 2012

BASEL, Switzerland—Every two months, more than a dozen bankers meet here on Sunday evenings to talk and dine on the 18th floor of a cylindrical building looking out on the Rhine.

The dinner discussions on money and economics are more than academic. At the table are the chiefs of the world's biggest central banks, representing countries that annually produce more than $51 trillion of gross domestic product, three-quarters of the world's economic output.

Of late, these secret talks have focused on global economic troubles and the aggressive measures by central banks to manage their national economies. Since 2007, central banks have flooded the world financial system with more than $11 trillion. Faced with weak recoveries and Europe's churning economic problems, the effort has accelerated. The biggest central banks plan to pump billions more into government bonds, mortgages and business loans.

Their monetary strategy isn't found in standard textbooks. The central bankers are, in effect, conducting a high-stakes experiment, drawing in part on academic work by some of the men who studied and taught at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in the 1970s and 1980s.

While many national governments, including the U.S., have failed to agree on fiscal policy—how best to balance tax revenues with spending during slow growth—the central bankers have forged their own path, independent of voters and politicians, bound by frequent conversations and relationships stretching back to university days.

If the central bankers are correct, they will help the world economy avoid prolonged stagnation and a repeat of central banking mistakes in the 1930s. If they are wrong, they could kindle inflation or sow the seeds of another financial crisis.

If it feels like you are part of a very grand, high-stakes experiment, congratulations!  You're exactly right. We are all collectively prisoner to whatever outcomes are in store.

The rather politely ignored truth right now, at least by most news outlets and politicians, is that the world's central banks have wandered very far off the reservation and are running an experiment that really has only two possible outcomes.  One is a return to what we all might call 'normal and stable' economic growth.  The second is the complete collapse of the fiat money and their attendant financial systems and markets.

While it is technically possible to achieve some other middling outcome, that possibility has been receding to ever more remote territory with every passing month and new round of money printing. 

The basic predicament here is that more and more money is being printed while the world economy, predictably for those who follow the net energy story, has been entirely stagnant and constantly threatening to slip back into economic retreat. Of course, more money + the same amount of (or even less) hard assets = the perfect recipe for inflation.

So the rise of inflation will signal the beginning of the end of this slow-motion tragedy.  I use the term 'tragedy' here because it doesn't have to end this way.  We have other options; we could make other choices and use our time and resources to try and do something other than maintain a broken financial system that desperately needs to be changed.

In Part II: It's Better to Be a Year Early Than a Day Late, I explain the facts behind why I am more convinced than ever that this all ends in one of the most disruptive financial and currency events ever seen on this planet.  And while the repercussions will be felt by all, taking prudent action while there is still time can greatly improve our individual odds of weathering them safely.

Click here to read Part II of this report (free executive summary; enrollment required for full access).

This is a companion discussion topic for the original entry at https://peakprosperity.com/qe-4-folks-this-aint-normal/

so help me out here.  it seems like bernankes plan could work.  the government now prints the money it needs instead of borrowing it.  so there is no interest payments.  now that they are offering such low interest rates no one in their right mind will want treasuries, so it will be entirely printed.  good-by private financing of government.
but that could be good.  interest rates are irrelevant to the borrowing since there is none.  inflation is determined by the entire quantity of dollar denominated equity–let say 70 trillion for round numbers.  then 85 billion a month is chump change, and would only cause .1% per month inflation, 1.2 % per year.  even adding on the nominal deficit spending of the government, the net infaltion is only 2%.

in the previous scheme, growth casued inflation and this paid the interest on loans.  now in a regime where there is little or no growth, then printing money causes the inflation, and this money now pays the interest.  any money the government doesnt get from taxation it can get from printing.

now 16 trillion is a lot, and a significant fraction of the dollar equity, maybe 25%.  but even if it goes to 100%, this is only 75% inflation, which over 10 years would only be maybe 6%.  so the government is no where near the point where the system is out of control.  in fact, in a no-growth world, this inflation takes the place of growth in funding interst payments.

and those that hold equity are unharmed in the sense that the value of their property goes up with the inflation.  so for example this helps homeowners, whose homes are inflating in value–so this reduces the effective rate they pay in interest in real term, or said another way, increases the value of their property so it is worth paying the interest.

of course the printed money doesnt go out in a fair way, and those that spend it first get the most out of it.  but in the end t seems like this regine will work.

and i think bernanke has convinced the rest of the worlds bankers that this is a workable new regime, and they can all benefit by it.  so they all start printing money.

for commodities, they will see the same level of inflation as other things.  the inflation rate is measured against the total of all money divided by the total of all equities. 

you folks are the smartest people i know.  explain why this is wrong.  thanks

Njinear,
It depends on how you calcuate the inflation rate and/or what you include in the CPI (many high inflationary products are subracted out). The same is true with unemployment. The same is true when calculating the GDP, etc. Markets are being dramatically manipulated by the greater powers, and what CM is pointing out is that the usual economic model indicators are not acting in correlation with the expectations inherent to those models. Manipulation has always occured at some level within the economic data presented by officials and governments and of course within the economic mechanisms, but the problem I see is that the manipulation (and increasing black market) has reached dangerous levels, which is why markets and expectations are not correlating. When manipulation is low or even moderate, markets are more or less predictable within the models we have created, but when things don't add up?..well, I get the feeling the Fed is rolling the dice and hoping this "new" course will be something that works. Honestly, I think they're terrified.

On another note, my heart breaks for my CT neighbors who have lost or been effected by this tragedy. I have a seven year old daughter, I could only read the news and cry.  My thoughts and prayers go out to all of you. People often point to this or that as to reasons the reasons why these things happen, but I think it's too complicated to know what brings a person to do such a terrible thing. In the end it is just horrifically tragic. Please let's all continue to try and create a better world.

Peace!

well, how equity is calculated and inflation is calculated is interesting but in the end it's the ratiuo between the money quantity and the assets that are owned.  in the short run there will be dislocations and trouble for individuals, but in the end the question is what is the aggregate effect.  in this case, since only asset and money totals are involved, the calculation is somewhat independent of method.

"inflation is determined by the entire quantity of dollar denominated equity–let say 70 trillion for round numbers."I'm not convinced.  Maybe the relevant baseline is not the entire quantity of dollar denominated equity but rather something like M2, which I believe is around $10T.  That's a big difference.  Of course, if we add credit as part of the money supply (as I believe we should) then we're back to a much larger number.  What happens if credit starts to expand, amplifying the effect of the Fed's printing?

There are several facts that are unaccounted for. 1.  The Federal Reserve is NOT federal… it is owned by 6 banking families.  This happened in 1913.  Thomas Jefferson warned us about this possibility.  Apperently that was a concern when the constitution was first written.  Therefore you must understand what is happening with the money that is thought to be printed.  The 85 billion a month is purchasing morgage backed securities.  In plan English this means;  the six banking families are "printing" (that is creating funds).  The funds are put into their accounts and they buy the morgages of every American citizen who has a bank owned morgage.  The banks, not our government, now are in place to own every piece of real estate when the final collapse of the economy happens.  This collapse is designed by the bankers.   They have all the money in the world… now they are after control. 
out of time… a lot more could be said.  check it out.

[quote=NJINEAR]so help me out here.  it seems like bernankes plan could work.  the government now prints the money it needs instead of borrowing it.  so there is no interest payments.  now that they are offering such low interest rates no one in their right mind will want treasuries, so it will be entirely printed.  good-by private financing of government.
[/quote]
The government prints nothing, the Fed prints everything.  And it's LOANED, not given freely.  And of course it's loaned at interest, the interest is just very low right now.  But that won't stay that way forever…it can't!  And when the interest rates rise to address inflation, we're screwed. 
As was said before, the FED is not a Federal Agency, but run by a group of banking families, who's soul purpose is to keep power from the people.
This will not end well.  It CANNOT end well.
I think you need to go back and try to understand "What money is".  Then you'll understand the predicament.
 

Higher interest rates don't matter to me the consumer because inflation has already screwed me. My money doesn't buy me the same amount of goods it did 25 years ago. I can't got to the grocery store without spending $300+ a week just for food to feed a family of 3. Its ridiculous! So all this talk about being screwed when the interest rates go up is just a bunch of baloney. We're already screwed…

well, i still see this as a game changer.  i dont see why you would only include one form of dollar equity like m2 in comparison to the whole enchilada.  and no matter who owns the fed, essentially the money is given to the gov at no interest.  hell, i could do it, gimme a piece of paper.
and there is crcumstantial evidence that i am right.  ALL the central banks are doing it.  i bet they got a convincing arguement from mr  B.  i'll bet a little research would reveal this is the "MIT" plan subscribed by the cohort from which mr B and many other central bankers come.

i dont think this is necessarily a bad thing.  after all, i would rather just have the government print the money than borrow it from private capital–who ever came up with that stupid idea anyway?? private funding of the government has caused a world of troubles–not just interest payments, but control by the rich too.

and it still leaves us all wanting some kind of equity–after all as the lake rises we want to have our net worth float on the total money supply, not be denominated in a fix number of dollars.  but it may mean that there are a wide variety of equities that will work.

So help me out here. it seems like bernankes plan could work.  the government now prints the money it needs instead of borrowing it.  so there is no interest payments.  now that they are offering such low interest rates no one in their right mind will want treasuries, so it will be entirely printed.
Help you out is right.  The government now prints the money...  Absolutely not.  The treasury issues bonds and the FRSystem prints the money out of thin air against those bonds.  The Government owes all of that money back plus interest.  So contrary to your statement we are still borrowing money, and lots of it.  The only thing you really need to know is to buy physical gold and silver, which have been on the rise since 2000, and when to finally exit that market once the cycle is nearing it's end.  Silver this year alone is up 17% this fiscal calendar year.  Do not buy so called precious metal stocks or ETFs.  As unlikely as it sounds, expect the Dow and Gold to meet in terms of value (1 to 1 ratio) at some point as it did in the 1980's.  Play to win and exit with your profits before that peak.

After this response, I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince you.  You haven't done your research, that's painfully obvious by some of your comments.  You're wasting your time here with this attitude.[quote=NJINEAR]
well, i still see this as a game changer.  i dont see why you would only include one form of dollar equity like m2 in comparison to the whole enchilada.  and no matter who owns the fed, essentially the money is given to the gov at no interest.  hell, i could do it, gimme a piece of paper.
and there is crcumstantial evidence that i am right.  ALL the central banks are doing it.  i bet they got a convincing arguement from mr  B.  i'll bet a little research would reveal this is the "MIT" plan subscribed by the cohort from which mr B and many other central bankers come.
i dont think this is necessarily a bad thing.  after all, i would rather just have the government print the money than borrow it from private capital–who ever came up with that stupid idea anyway?? private funding of the government has caused a world of troubles–not just interest payments, but control by the rich too.
and it still leaves us all wanting some kind of equity–after all as the lake rises we want to have our net worth float on the total money supply, not be denominated in a fix number of dollars.  but it may mean that there are a wide variety of equities that will work.
[/quote]

with LogansRun. Please read the CC, and do more DD. You are trying to argue within an economic framework that really doesn't exist anymore. What the central banks are doing has never been done before on a global scale. The cracks in all our systems, economic or otherwise, are opening in a big way. That's one of the reasons most of us are here. We are trying to make sense of how to prepare for what is looking like a major change in the way we all will live. None of us knows exactly how this will play out, but we are in agreement that our current systems are not sustainable and are beginning to fail. Look around, countries are simultaneously running into sovereign debt insolvency, our environment is changing at an uprecedent pace, species and cultures are being wiped, our resources are becoming more scarce and more expensive to mine. Even if what you suggest works according to a "model" in the short run, there are too many other forces at work here (EEE) that will throw a wrench into the mix. CC, DD, and EEE…I kind of like that.Thank You

Something I've never been able to understand: how exactly can so many people be counted as having "given up" looking for work? It seems ridiculous to claim that all of these people can support themselves solely on means other than working a regular job, at least over an indefinite period of time.

I could be wrong but my understanding was that the FED pays back to the Treasury most of its benefit. So if this is correct that would mean that the interrest rate paid by the Treasury to the FED doesn't really matter?

  CM Wrote: The key point here is that the Fed is now actively running both monetary and fiscal policy because it will now be in the business of funding nearly 100% of all the new government deficit spending in 2013.  And it is pumping a bit more than $1 trillion of hot, thin-air money into the economy as it does so.
  I thought that the $40B/month of QE3 was used to buy mortgage-backed securities (MBS) so that's not really government dept?  

[quote=angle]Something I've never been able to understand: how exactly can so many people be counted as having "given up" looking for work? It seems ridiculous to claim that all of these people can support themselves solely on means other than working a regular job, at least over an indefinite period of time.
[/quote]
It's called living off relatives or significant others OR
welfare OR
Social Security disability (whether you do or don't deserve it) OR
workman's compensation disability (whether you do or don't deserve it) OR
taking an early retirement lump sum payout OR
retiring early, period OR
working outside the tax system for cash OR
conducting a criminal enterprise OR
becoming homeless OR
take your pick …
 

The central bankers, including China, are coordinating shell game moves.  China certainly is not going to rock boat as long the shell game can be managed (after all that is how Communists work).  But at some point greivances will come to the fore as the free market is not involved (think Mafia).   So I expect the first event to be a large war.  South Chin sea?  Probably not.  Israel bombing Iran?  Most likely.  It is good to remember governments never admit mistakes; they only find scapegoats to deflect the electorate attention.  Ask the Jews (no offense intended).  Be damned British!

ghendric said

I can't got to the grocery store without spending $300 plus a week just for food to feed a family of 3.
Good Lord, in SC I feed a family of FOUR for $130/wk, including toiletries and a little wine. In NY--three years ago-- I fed a family of one for $70, and I cooked all my food from scratch even though I was working 80-hour weeks. It's just healthier than the prepared stuff - healthy food was how I could manage 80 hour weeks in my 50s. Is it the cost of diapers? Otherwise, unless you are buying a lot of prepared foods I cannot see how a grocery bill that high that is possible. This is not to disparge you or your partner - many younger people today lost the skills and do not realize that cooking from scratch often takes less time than eating out or heating something pre-made. It always saves you money and much of it is incredibly easy to learn.

Send me a private message and I will be happy to help.

in history have been conspiracies.

So it's surprising how often this reality is rejected by the masses until it slaps them upside the head.

And even then, there is much doubt and disbelief lingers.

"Once upon a time, it would have been considered in bad taste to suggest that the world was being centrally managed in secret by a small-ish cabal of bankers whose actions served to either prop up the excessive spending habits of the very governments that conferred upon them the power to print money, or to bolster the health and profits of the banks they mainly serve."

Wait a minute Chris.  Doesn't this belong in the basement?;-)

 

It's interesting that just this week, I'm confronting the issue of dealing with G codes and a whole new level of bureaucracy involved in Medicare reimbursement.  More time spent documenting that isn't reimbursable time.  More time spent with the patient explaining why we have to do certain measurements and tests that seem to be only obliquely related to the actual problems they are experiencing.  More time spent on this means less time treating them.  And for all this, we will be paid even less.  And not only that but our taxes will go up to support an army of non-productive bureaucrats that will be regulating us ever more closely ... and imposing more rules which take more time to learn and comply with and for which we will be paid even less.  And the circle continues ... in a downward spiral. 

 

Here's a cute little gem we came across this week.  This is a patient that I've seen in the past so I'm very familiar with him and we have a very good relationship.  He was seen by me earlier this year but still had some Medicare visits left before reaching his cap (i.e. spending limit).  I saw him this week for a new problem and we submitted his claim but it was rejected.  It's rejected because Medicare has access to motor vehicle records and this patient was in an accident recently.  He was experiencing neck and back pain so Medicare assumes it's from the accident.  The only thing is, the accident did not involve any personal injury and the patient's problems are from a completely different cause altogether.  And it's a bureaucratic mess to get it all straightened out.  But the big question is, what is Medicare doing with this patient's motor vehicle records?  The answer, of course, is that in our emerging totalitarian global state, little by little, more and more is being controlled by fewer and fewer via progessive restrictions of liberty and freedom through fear based means and via the progressive extraction of wealth from the middle class, shrinking its size, power, and influence and redirecting the flow of that wealth to the very top to consolidate the power and control of the elite (while still allowing a small token volume of wealth to trickle to the bottom to ensure that the voting block of the entitlement class is securely bought so there is still the appearance at least of legitimately acquired power).

 

When we begin looking at people and events ranging from the House of Rothschild, the Rockefellers (and John D. and, more recently, David in particular), the British Royal family and the power and control they still hold (both overt and covert), the events behind the start of most modern wars (ranging from the Lusitania to the Gulf of Tonkin incident), the creation of the Federal Reserve, the implementation of the Federal income tax, the global banking system (including the BIS and IMF), US presidential assassinations (and attempts) linked to ill fated monetary reform measures (Jackson, Lincoln, Garfield, McKinley, Kennedy), overseas economic and geopolitical exploits described by economic hitmen such as John Perkins, acceptance of Nazis into the US when their technology is to our benefit (i.e. Werner von Braun and NASA's rocket program), Nazi mind control techniques from MK Ultra being integrated into the CIA (and being involved with a host of individuals from Ted Kaczynski to Sirhan Sirhan and perhaps James Holmes and other contemporary gun linked nutcases), the development of the surveillance state (from Echelon and Carnivore to the Utah Data Center to drones and nanorobots), the relationship between the CIA and companies such as Facebook and Google, the growth of the size and scope and power of the TSA, the development of military groups for domestic operations in violation of posse comitatus, the Patriot Act, the NDAA, the occult involvement of the elite in such things ranging from the Skull and Bones Society to Bohemian Grove to the Chateau des Amerois, false flag events (both planned and actual), the prevalence of the sociopathic personality among the elite, the documentable and traceable corruption of almost every high level government official, the two tiered rule of law allowing a Jon Corzine to walk while some lowly financial advisor gets hammered because he didn't submit government mandated indecipherable paperwork in a timely manner, the absence of any regulatory teeth to organizations such as the SEC or CFTC when it comes to dealing with connected and powerful corporate entities, the long standing absence of tort reform, the absence of any substantial tax reform that would enforce fair and equitable corporate taxes for such entities as GE and Google, the pharmaceutical functional decimation of the population with everything from statins to SSRIs, the poisoning of our food supply (with everything from GMOs, fluoride, aspartame, etc.), etc., if we don't start to get just a little bit suspicious, we are crazier than the tin foil hat crew (who, by the way, may have something there, given some of the nefarious uses of maser technology).

 

By the way Chris, I see that your statement above has unofficially initiated you into the tin foil hat crew on one of the blogs.

"With his commentary this week Chris Martenson became the latest financial writer to earn his tinfoil hat."

http://www.pinnacledigest.com/blog/dscaron/everything-manipulated-gold-oil-libor-electricity#comment-44325

Don't feel bad.  It was a small and lonely club for a while but membership is growing fast ... exponentially, in fact.;-)

Yes, that's what the official story is via propaganda.  It's not reality though.  Do you really think a private bank would give their profits back from their own loan???  No way in hell! 
Take the time to think about this subject…please…Why would a privately run bank, want to print the money/currency of a country?  For shits and giggles?  No way.  It's for profit…!!!  So with this, do you really believe the current banking cartel is sitting there thinking " Oh, it's cool that we're making nothing off of the money that we're creating…no biggie!"  No way.
Sailaway, I respect you very much.  And I appreciate what you bring to the forum!  But I'd hope that you'll take the time to really understand the workings of the SOB's that are running the world.  The Elite Banking Families aren't going to GIVE power/money away, without a reason.  There are NO coincedences.  
If you need help in understanding the real workings of the Western World, PM me…I'm sure AO could do the same.

I could be wrong but my understanding was that the FED pays back to the Treasury most of its benefit. So if this is correct that would mean that the interrest rate paid by the Treasury to the FED doesn't really matter?

   

hey folks, i am just an engineer.  i follow the facts and evidence.  i have no interest in making important decisions personal. following the evidence is always the best strategy in the end.  even if it uncomfortable for a while.
folks, the fed is not "loaning" the gov money that has to be paid back.  they are doing a shell game that in the end is an interest free (print-money) plan for the us government.

thats the way money printing works.  there aint no stinking interest.  they dont even have to keep track of the amount… because in the end it will resolve itself with inflation.

just take a look at the smirk on bernankes face.  you think he is panicking?  i tell you this plan can work.  then we just have environmental degredation, resource depletion, and climate change to worry about.  one less thing.