The problem with your analysis Headless, is that it’s, well, headless. Who are all those well-armed Amerikuns going to point their weapons at? Their neighbors? They sure as hell won’t get as far as the Gold ManSacks monied classes. Those folks will easily fly the coop before the rednecks hit their neighborhoods. More than likely the armed forces will be called in to quell the redneck uprising.
Get a grip!
I’m feeling more and more angry every day, but when I randomly question people in my circle of contact honestly I haven’t detected a significant shift in attitude. I don’t think they have felt any pain yet or been forced to make changes in lifestyle. They sometimes sense something is not right but they’re too busy with work and family and stuff to educate themselves on how the economy really functions and they feel contacting their congressmen or senators would not accomplish anything.
That might begin to change if there is a shift in the mainstream media, like what CM noted above. But sources I heard just today like Marketplace on NPR were still full of the same old "recovery is coming now" stuff based on GDP, employment numbers, etc. No mention though of the faults and manipulation in these measures which CM has done such a great job explaining.
I’m curios what other folks have observed in other areas of the country.
Tom
Tom:
So correct. I laughed hard when Max Keiser was being interviewed by a French reporter and she said well what about unemployment, that was good news.
His reply. You have to scratch the surface of those numbers, then a simpleton explanation of the B-D complex model.
Oh well, like Greenspan said, (I’m close not exact here) the numbers can’t be conned.
Billy-Bob, what you say reminds me of an older guy I knew when I rowed, he was ex state dept. and told me how the well to do have spare houses, cars, condos, clothes, bank accounts in Switzerland. Just there in case TSHTF.
Billy bob said:" They sure as hell won’t get as far as the Gold ManSacks monied classes."
And "nobody will ever knock down the Twin Towers…"
I’ve been living in China since March, and I still keep in decent touch with my friends in the States. I’ve got to say that based on what I’ve seen coming out of the media, based on the people I speak or exchange e-mails with in the States, based on what expats in China understand – a small segment of the population actually takes the time to read or watch material, such as Chris’ crash course. An even smaller segment actually makes the effort to understand it.
I can make a blanket statement to someone like "the economy’s not doing well" and the conversation will continue smoothly, but if I try to discuss in depth issues with mortgage fincances, market bubbles, monetary policy, government fiscal responsibility, or debt burden, the conversation stops. I had a conversation with a University English teacher here, who had studied economics, in which we began by discussing the GM bankruptcy. He argued that it was important for the government to support GM for the well-being of US manufacturing and employment figures. When I tried to discuss the GM bankruptcy was just another case of government mismanagement and the power of special interest groups, and then address the roots of the financial crises, I lost him completely.
Most people’s perspective is completely shaped by mass media or by a single book or two on economics. There is a vast divide between people who understand the concepts of economics and finance and those who accept what comes out of mainstream media. It’s pretty much defined by those who invest the time to read the literature, and those who read the author’s Wikipedia page or the Sparknotes
Honestly, although I have all the hope in the world that the US finds someway to shed this disgusting cloak of rapacious greed combined with willfull ignorance, it will take some world-changing event for it to happen. The population of the States seems, to me, to be too complacant, too content with their meager mediocrities, and most critically too ignorant of what is important - self-motivated grassroots political activity, an understanding of political and economy liberty, an objective sense of what is right and wrong - too ensure the continuity of a democratic republic.
rht1786,
I think your observations are pretty close to the mark. It will likely require a huge event to spur any real interest or efforts at corrective actions. Humans are basically lazy and Americans have it pretty easy with the quantity of energy slaves we have working for us (measured in barrels of oil consumed per day per person).
Coop
Politicians (such as Mr. King above) have remarked and complained about this mind-set and related actions, but so far have proven unwilling to apply any real force to the situation.Mervyn King is the governor of the bank of england and not a politician. This is why he can speak something nearer to the truth than the UK government which is behaving like a rabbit in the headlights. When MK said on August 12th that the recession (I prefer to call it a contraction) is pretty bad, and on the same day unemployment figures in the UK rise to 2.5M (8% I believe) the stockmarket rises. There seems to be suggestions on this post that Goldman Sachs are doing some manipulation on Wall Street - any facts to back this up? Could the same be happening in London?
Dr. Martenson,
I have to say I’m deeply disappointed that you posted this seed of revolution on your site. I know they were not your words, but by posting them you have endorsed them. Even though your specific commentary was just an observation of the social mood, the post itself is just more kindling for the pro-revolution fire that is spreading through this community. I’m sure many here feel that is a good thing, but I for one, feel that viewpoint is very short-sighted.
Revolution=Unspeakable Suffering and Death.
Is that something we want for our children?
JAG,
If the purpose of the CC is to understand, plan and take action, understanding the ebbs and flows of social mood for potential outbreaks to one side or the other is essential. Anyone who feels Dr. M is endorsing the message in the title of the article has not watched enough of the CC or read enough of his writings to understand that he is politically agnostic, in my opinion. I do understand what you are saying, and with many newcomers recently, the post may send the wrong message, but I think anyone who’s been around here long enough knows that Chris posts data he deems worth observing, good, bad, or ugly. In this case, the "data" is a "main stream" voice breaking very unusual new ground. My 2 cents.
Hello JAG:
While I was saddened to read that I think:
- Judging from the town hall videos it is likely accurate
- Fore warned is fore armed
- I agree with Patrick: Chris did years of work then gave it away for free. His intent is to help
Grassroots movement.
If Citizens would begin closing their regular "for profit bank" Bank savings and checking accounts and put their money into "non-profit" Credit Union savings and checking accounts. The revolution fire would be lit. This is simple. Citizens will still have their credit and ATM cards. They will earn interest (maybe higher), and can get most all of the same products from their non-profit Credit Unions that are working for their Depositors, instead of the Banksters. Remember not all Credit Unions are non-profit. Not all are strong and healthy. Choose wisely, but choose. Vote for change with your money, and the Citizens of this Country can beat the Bankers PACs that use your money as their own.
njwatts,
I don’t know how much of this is factually accurate but this recent article sums up the theory against Goldman Sachs.
http://www.marketskeptics.com/2009/08/great-american-bubble-machine.html
Absolutely. A national movement of money would send a very strong message. If you have savings in a bank that took TARP money, move it to one that didn’t. It’s that simple.
JAG,
I understand your concerns and I admit that this is uncomfortable territory. To be clear I am not advocating nor endorsing nor hoping for any sort of social unrest or revolution.
My purpose in broaching this issue is to note that, whether we choose to acknowledge it or not, there is an undercurrent of anger and displacement that is building in this country and I want to avoid it.
My hope is that some people in power (and in banks in particular) will read this post and others like it and change their behavior before they push too far and cause something unnecessary to happen. How will they change their ways if not by having their actions and possible consequences raised in open discussion?
Further, I feel a responsibility to point out what I am seeing, the good the bad and the ugly, and I see enormous risks in the current actions of our monetary and fiscal authorities and on the part of irresponsible large financial institutions. They risk everything; our safety, security, wealth, and livelihoods. If they blow it, and I think that’s an all-too-probable outcome, then things could well become unpleasant.
If anyone here has a better way of working towards a peaceable outcome, I am quite interested in what that might be. So far all attempts to change the official actions by discussing the actions themselves have proven utterly fruitless. Discussing the possible consequences is a different tactic.
I encourage everyone to be responsible for the tone and tenor here - if you detect a post or poster that crosses a line, please either respond with your words, or make us aware of it by flagging the post.
Let me recall one of the site rules; posts or comments that advocate breaking the law are strictly forbidden. One thing that would be a shame would be to allow someone whose only intent is to harm this site do so by abusing this rule. I have noted several posts that weave dangerously close to the line and we’re keeping a close eye on things.
Lastly, I think it unavoidably newsworthy that Marketwatch ran that article. It tells us something significant about a growing mindset. I’m not sure I would characterize pointing it out as equivalent to sowing a "seed of revolution" here. There are many here and elsewhere who are still working through the anger stage and it is not my intent to either encourage or deny them their passage through that stage.
It’s a fine line, thank you for your concern. Duly noted.
These comments have a very rear vjiew mirror feel to me. They are like the covers of national magazines which shout the obvious to the so called average man. As a bear I find extreme comments like this in such a mass media forum like
CBS Marketwatch to make me seriously question my position and take the other side.
These comments make us no money taken at face value, they only entrench a wrong position. Investing it highly counter intuitive.
Hi Tom, in answer to how it’s looking in other parts of the country, I though I’d give you my perspective from the UK.
The major media outlets are cautious on the economy with some noted points of reality and cynicism. One noted commentator is Gillian Tett of the FT (www.ft.com), another is Larry Elliot of the Guardian (www.guardian.co.uk). Overall, there is sickly attention to ‘green shoots’ balanced by ‘don’t be fooled, it’ll never be the same again’ opinions.
This is somewhat supported by the political argument as the current Labour administration has been pursuing an aggressive Keynesian policy and thus is building the mother and father of all national debts. On the other hand, we have the Conservatives who expect to win the election, due next spring, saying that the debt must be repaid through a period of austerity, thus a potential return to Thatcherism/Reganism . This means that there is a lot of heat but not much light. We get better from the aforementioned Mervyn King, Governor of the Bank of England (not a politician as CM said, but actually a politically active appointee civil servant) who is fairly realistic and open.
As for day to day life where I am, there is little feeling of recession or economic concern. However, I suspect that is because I live in a rural area with a high retirement population which has been somewhat protected (despite the falling yields on cash deposits).There is also a significant farming sector here, which has been coping well. Unemployment is rising (now 7.8% of working population and highest since 1995) but, apart from the personal stories featured every now and again in the media, at first glance there seems to be little heart to fight. Nearly half of the unemplyed are aged under 25 and the worst job losses concentrated in the usual industrial heartlands across the south Wales, the midlands, Liverpool/Manchester, the north east, Glasgow/Edinburgh, so there could be a lot of muted acceptance - especially as social benefits do pay enough to keep you alive.
Even amongst the ‘usual suspects’ around here, such as those in my own network involved in permaculture, sustainability issues, LETS or the Transition Towns movement, there is no real economic awareness. They are all aware about climate change and peak oil but not about economic collapse (I’m changing that!). Things are also a bit confused with the MPs expenses scandal that has got nearly everyone very, very angry.
Despite what I say, however, in recent years there has been a significant rise in one-issue campaign organisations covering issues such as personal freedom, climate change etc. There is also a growing movement to change our electoral system, not least because there are plenty of people willing and able to protest because there is no other way they can make a difference. This may coalesce into something more focussed.
My own view is that TSHTF will happen when food and fuel shortages impact the population at large, which will precipitate protest and uprising, which itself will be forcibly squashed by the authoritarian government. So, be debt free and part of a rural, local and self sufficient community.
Be well
Regards, Bill
Woodman and rht1786-
I’m with you. Other than my spouse, those in my circle of friends and family are unwilling to consider that maybe it’s not normal for the average family share of the national annual interest obligation to be higher than average annual family income. NPR is part of the problem. In one segment of reporting they disclose dismal figures and then in the next segment they report that everything is fine. (Like this morning.) If they want to be a viable institution, they need to restructure and become much more comprehensive.
The Silent generation (precedes Boomers) are only concerned with preserving what the have now and can only be counted on to protest government action if it infringes on Social Security and Medicare. Generational cycle authors Strauss and Howe predicted in The Fourth Turning (1997) that Boomers would sit on their hands in the upcoming crisis (the one we are in now) until it is too late. The younger generations (and Boomers and Silents as well) are simply numblers (numb bumblers) walking or driving around talking or peering at some electronic device in their hand or ear.
The manipulators continue to come up with ways to grab money from investors. One friend has told me that his investment advisor has him in some kind of inflation-proof product. It will go on till all of the credit is washed out of the system and this guy will stick with the system until the account statement reads zero.
Those who are protesting these days are Ditto heads and Beckites who are running on emotion and not intellect. ( A world view shaped by these two is not very deep – nor very wide.) Many of them invoke Tom Paine and Ayn Rand without having read any of their work. I recently saw a truck that had "Palin 2012" bumper sticker and a "Who is John Galt" sticker. Talk about a disconnect. Promoting the best known religious fundamentalist of current times alongside the best known atheist of the 20th century.
We’ve got a ways to go before any constructive action will occur.
Just to clarify, I am not advocating for violence. But I do think that a revolution in the way that our country is governed, our economy is run, and our society operates is sorely needed. We are on a patently unsustainable path that almost guarantees future violence, hardship and despair. The way I see it, either we make some painful and difficult changes now or we face the catastrophic consequences of not doing so later.
Unfortunately, recent history has shown that the powers that be won’t willingly cede their control and the rest of us won’t force them to unless we are truly up against the ropes. It very well may take social unrest on the scale on a revolutionary scale to bring about the magnitude of change we need.
I believe it is possible to achieve such a transformation without widespread violence. It has happened before, and it can happen again.
JAG,
I haven’t noticed anyone coming close to crossing the line, which our host defines as "posts or comments that advocate breaking the law are strictly forbidden."
The time has come for us to excercise our legal rights as never before; which includes the freedom of speech and the freedom to protest in mass. I’m encouraged to see the righteous anger of many of my fellow citizens as it is based on a growing understanding that our constitution is being shredded and the international banking cartel is stealing us blind.
Righteous anger and passion will give us the collective backbone to stand up and say no to those who are breaking our laws by ignoring the constitution and allowing the international banking cartel to destroy our economy.
This is the truth and we have an obligation to do what we can to stop it; within the law, by becoming proactive. If we sit idly by and don’t do anything, then we are being complicit. We’re on our own folks, don’t look for help from the corporate media.
And please, don’t forget that we have the final say, as long as enough of us say it together.
Larry