I watched the Teal Swan interview the day it was posted and had an intriguing but slightly negative response to her words and body language.
Couldn’t get it/her off my mind - and how Chris was really forced to dance around her responses and the subjects, so then listened to it again while out walking.
Now, after a week of still thinking about the interview - and after having checked out her website and Google background - I am finally back here on PP. Not surprised by the 100 comments and range of feelings! And after listening to Adam and Chris discuss it today…
I’ve just got to say, well done. Yes, this is a financial/preparation site and group, mostly, but it is now abundantly clear that all of us need to wander over to the human behavior side too. That is where the TRUE questions lie - all the rest is really just linear math for us linear thinkers. I realized a few years ago it is the human mind that is the super interesting part of this whole story and the future history that is being written.
Glad Chris is willing to explore that! It is a brave move! But I for one fully support this new touchy feely side of PP.
Thanks Chris.
Chris -
I think the world of what you do. It has made a real difference in my life, and the lives of some of my family and friends, who I have steered toward PP.
I agree with and support your journey around spiritual growth. Like you, I lived inside my head for too long, and as I have done my own work on that, I've found a healthier and happier self.
I want to support you with the saying, "If you're not making some mistakes, you're probably not trying hard enough". In the case of Teal Swan, I feel you may have made one of those mistakes.
"I'm the 12th incarnation of an arcturian spirit guide who was designed physically to be maximally attractive to all people on all continents…".
Quotes by Teal like this are readily available with a with a quick Google search. There's plenty out there to call into question who she is, and the credibility of her messages.
Here's the thing Chris. Yes, you are an information guy. You have a gift for ignoring politics or agendas, and talking simply about the math and the strategic landscape. This scientific perspective lends great credibility to what you do. But, when you don't give your readers the benefit of due diligence around introducing someone like Teal, you ding your credibility. And that, is a shame, because what you do is tremendously important, and desperately needed.
I invite you to do a little investigation about Teal, and to share what you find with your readers, so they can have a balanced perspective on what she is saying. I think she has some good insights personally, but I'm glad I have an understanding of her story, before choosing to hang on her every word. There's plenty out there to indicate, she's a hot mess.
Thank you for raising this in a respectful and mostly open manner.
Let me test your statements a bit.
If I understand you correctly, you are saying that her belief that she is a reincarnated being means that we can easily dismiss her as "a hot mess."
That's just something we can all readily agree on right? We don't even have to examine it much, just note her (whacky) belief and chuckle a bit between ourselves.
The fact that she believes she knows the reason she's been incarnated as a broadly attractive person is just icing on the cake right? Who but a 'nut job' could know or believe any of that, right?
Case closed!
However what are we to make of the Dalai Lama who goes by the (apparently) insane and therefore easily dismissable belief that he is the 14th incarnation of a spiritual master that only ever decides to come into the male form because that's required for maximum effectiveness.
As well, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, Native Americans, and a ton of other sects and religions share the belief in reincarnation. Those billions of people must be nuts.
Or is it that Teal lacks credibility because enough time and other people have not built an established set of practices and dogma around her for the rest of us to feel comfortable accepting what she says? If a thousand years passed would it be okay, say, like someone claiming that a burning bush spoke to them, and people could accept what she is now saying?
For me, I intuitively trust my ability to hear what someone is saying and know if that's the right message for me in this moment. I value a lot of what the Dalai Lama says and does. I think the current Pope has a huge number of great things to say. I especially value Ekhart Tolle and Sobonfu Some, as well as a hundred other sources.
And I don't take in 100% of what any of them say. but niether do I toss out 100% because they have one or more traits that make my personal eyebrow meter twitch a bit.
As always trust yourself.
That was a great, well thought out, respectful and considered post Tom.
Here are my responses (this may get long).
[quote=thc0655]
I think that one of the most divisive issues is between theistic spirituality and atheistic spirituality. Chris, it seems to me that you are personally in the practice of spirituality that has no place for a supreme being: non-theistic or atheistic spirituality. That much seems obvious to me. [/quote]
To me this is not divisive at all. I absolutely support you or anybody's right to believe in whatever form of supreme being, or encompassing consciousness that resonates meaningfully for them.
In fact, the form of spirituality/mysticism that appeals to me once had a long, and prominent role in Christianity. It's fallen out of favor for a while, but its current popularity should not be taken as a sign of its utility or lack thereof.
I would invite you to read this entire piece I am posting and linking to below, but this snippet should suffice:
Although Eckhart Tolle is arousing great interest today, many think he is a novelty, New Age, or even non-religious. The process—and that is what it is—that he is teaching, can be traced through the Greek and Latin traditions of contemplation, the apophatic tradition in particular, and the long history of what was sometimes called "The Sacrament of the Present Moment" (Brother Lawrence, OCD, Francisco de Osuna, OFM, Jean Pierre de Caussade, S.J.).The mystical tradition inside of Orthodoxy and Catholicism often divided contemplation into two types: infused or natural contemplation, and acquired contemplation.
Evelyn Underhill, the brilliant historian of mysticism sees three forms of contemplation:
Mystical Contemplation of the Natural World,
Metaphysical Contemplation of the World of Being and Consciousness,
Theological Contemplation of the World of God.
After the oppositional mind that set in place during and after the Reformation of the 16th century, and after the Enlightenment of the 17th-18th centuries, this ancient tradition was largely lost, except among individuals. We lost the older Tradition of "praying beyond words" as the entire Western and Eastern Churches became quite preoccupied with words and proving words to be true or false.
This is the only period that Protestantism and Evangelicals have ever known. So for at least 400 years, we have had neither an understanding of infused nor acquired contemplation! It is such foreign terrain to almost all Protestants, and most Catholics and Orthodox that they immediately think it is heresy or even pagan, when in fact, it is the solid tradition of the first 1400 years of Christianity!
Tolle is, in fact, rather brilliantly bringing to our awareness the older tradition of both "infused" or "natural contemplation," and the two first types in Underhill's listing. These are both the ground and the process for breaking through to theological contemplation of God, and acquired contemplation of Jesus, the Gospels, and all spiritual things.
He is teaching process not doctrine or dogma. He is teaching how to see and be present, not what you should see when you are present. Tolle is our friend, and not an enemy of the Gospel. There should be no conflict for a mature Christian. "Anyone who is not against us, is for us," as Jesus said, and he also said, "Fear profits nothing." (Source)What Ekhart Tolle is teaching speaks loudly to me, as it asks me to be present and to be in full control of my ego, and to go ever deeper into the great mystery of being alive. that works for me, and as an adherent of that, I absolutely have zero interest in and no energy for attempting to tell anyone what is right for them.
I've got my hands full with myself! So this next question of yours I can dispense with out of hand:
What is not obvious to me is whether you can tolerate and embrace those whose spirituality is theistic (i.e. it includes a supreme being).Not only can I "tolerate it" I will fight to then end your right to believe in whatever speaks most loudly to you. As well I preserve my right to change and your right to change our stances whenever and as often as necessary as we move through life, should that be desired or required.
Next:
I have discovered that the supreme being I know is much, much more intrusive and demanding than just the shellfish I might eat, the place and time of my worship, and the bad words I might use. I believe he wants to OWN me, and "fundamentally transform" everything about me and my life. And I'm good with that, since I am so limited and have screwed up so much. I don't think it's my place to pick and choose among the supreme being's demands I'm going to follow based on my own evaluation. And when I do that anyway (and I do) that's what I call "sin."This is where I will agree to disagree. My own felt sense and experience of the divine leads me strongly to the sense that whatever divine or higher power may exist is so far transcended from the human form and ego that I simply cannot make the same leap you do.
But I do believe that if I live in full integrity with my true authentic self that I will know right from wrong without anybody, any book or any law having to tell me so. I will simply know.
This is most eloquently expressed (to me) in the Shambala Warrior (Buddhist) tradition which states that by attaining a pure and fearless heart is the path of such knowing. The more I open my heart to the world, the more I 'just know.'
Which means we are in alignment:
I say all of that to say that I believe morality and ethics come from our spirituality, whether it be theistic or non-theistic spirituality. Often I think people accept portions of the spirituality and morality/ethics they receive from parents, teachers, and other people without doing the work of discovering it for themselves.And, by the way, that "work of doing it for themselves" you mention I found to be exceptionally challenging work. Not for the faint of heart. It took courage and involved a lot of uncomfortable moments for me.
There are, however, many paths to such knowing, and it is essential work for humans to undertake. That's why there's a version of such a path in every culture that's ever existed.
And I 100% confirm and support this last part of your excellent missive:
All of that is not irrelevant for creating a world worth inheriting. These spiritual issues are the foundation for anything positive we might do in that direction. How much energy should each of us consume? How many children should I have? What's the best social structure to live in: nuclear family, primitive tribe without family units, a blend of tribe and nuclear family? How should we deal with those whose choices and behavior are environmentally or economically unsustainable, even blatantly destructive?If we are going to create a world worth inheriting, then we need to change. And change begins inside of each of us. Period. Full stop.How do I handle the despair I feel as I watch us continuing down the path to destruction? I say we keep doing our best to incorporate spiritual issues into our 3 E's discussions as we strive to create a world worth inheriting. We all have a lot to learn.
"As within, so without." This is my guiding edict in my personal life. If I want anything to be different on the outside, I have to first change on the inside. This is most especially and acutely true for my relationships.
But change is hard, and so I'll leave you all with this cartoon which captured the human experience quite well.
I too am a little unsettled by Teal Swan, but I'm keeping an open mind. After all, I put all my trust in a lunatic who claimed he was the incarnation in human form of God Almighty, who claimed to speak the very words of God, who claimed to raise the dead and heal the sick, and turned water into wine. (The Pope thinks pretty highly of him too.) By comparison, Teal's claims about herself are small potatoes.
Chris -
Many individuals are adept at lacing pearls of truth and wisdom in what they say and do. Look at Janet Yellen. Janet has some occasional useful information. Many hang on her every word, but these tend to be people who don't know the full picture of who the Fed is, and what the Fed is about. They take Janet's words at face value. And as I remember, while you have not called Yellen "a hot mess", you've voiced your perspectives about her in humorous ways at times.
The reason you can do that with credibility is that you have done your homework. As I said in my comment earlier, Teal has some interesting perspectives I agree with. She has some others that make me wonder. Better understanding who she is and her story helps me to make a determination about whether I should give credence to all she offers up.
In this case, PP did not really investigate that. And I personally like it when you back what you offer up with some analysis. That said, I get how "analyzing" spirituality feels like it may be missing the point. In this case I think it's about analyzing the "spiritualist" (using some of the skills used at analyzing the head of the Fed), and determine if everything feels ok or not.
This is worrisome and a bit ironic. I agree with Chris regarding the value and necessity of discernment. It seems that Ms. Swan does not. Here is Teal Swan explaining why in her opinion, there is no such thing as "healthy skepticism." https://m.reddit.com/r/skeptic/comments/3mqvzf/
Teal Swan has many amazing thoughts,ideas and insights. A great guest for sure. That said, my discernment side sensed something not quite right about this too. So I did a little research and watched several videos of Swan going on and on about space aliens and extra terrestrials. I watched another one where she talks about leaders and those in power being ruled by these "alien beings" as well. This seemed rather strange to put it mildly. So, while I appreciate some of her insights, going forward, I would suggest interviewing other spiritual voices and not focusing on this one.
See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGG8LCLEKTU and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvFYcClwxN0
I have been following PP and sharing the Crash Course with as many people as will listen (yeah, not many… 
) since around 2008. As with possibly multiple others on this site, I consider myself reasonably resilient in many ways, and woefully lacking in others. I am a little older than Chris, with kids about the same age. For perspective, I was brought up in a traditionally religious family but don't consider myself religious. I was really excited to see Ms Swan being interviewed by Chris, as the spiritual part of my life has been quite prominent for me over the last year. I am actually surprised at how few commenters admit to having had or being on a spiritual journey similar to Chris and his family. For my first post, I am going to go out on a limb, summon up some of that courage that Chris asked for, and share a few of my personal experiences regarding my relatively recent spiritual quest. Sorry, I have no mind expanding insight to share but thought others might be interested in aspects of my journey.
This might get too tin foil hat for some, and I don't expect anyone else to understand or relate to what I have experienced. As a scientist, it has been a pretty woo woo year for me too, however the series of synchronicities and coincidences that have entered my life this past year cannot be ignored. I have no idea where the experiences came from, what they mean, or why this has occurred to me at this time of my life. Of course, being a curious person, I have initiated a quest for answers. Very similar to the quest for answers to financial and resource issues that draws many people to this site. I decided to remain open to wherever and whatever my search turned up, practicing the same discernment and critical thinking that I do with any information these days, and trying not to allow any limiting beliefs restrict my quest for answers to why these events are taking place. I am relatively confident that some of these can be logically addressed upon further study, but believe me, I am also confident that many cannot.
With all due respect to Jung, my journey did not start with pain. I did not instigate my spiritual search; the best description I can give is that it found me. I actually feel as if I was "activated". To me, it started with noticing 11:11 or 3:33 or 4:44 on my bedroom clock. So often, that I finally had to look up if it meant something. Apparently there are millions of others that have experienced the same thing. Well, that essentially spurred my spiritual search. Numbers have been a prominent part of the synchronicities I have experienced since then. I won't get into the details, but trust me there have been numerous instances that are beyond plain coincidence and sometimes comprehension.
My deceased father appears to be playing a role in the "festivities", but not in a grieving way. He was an amazing person who passed away several years ago at the age of 89. Sure I miss him being with us, but he lived a long and happy life and we all pass on. Two unrelated people (not me or family) have seen what we assume is him in spirit form in my mother's house. And yes, I believe he has left me and other family members signs of his presence on several occasions.
I am not sure if this is related in any way to the numbers, but on four occasions last year I observed UFO's from my yard (first time in my life). Three orange orbs and a triangle of lights, not flying saucers and not saying alien, but we have lots of air traffic in my area and these were all different from that. That these observations happened within about the same period that the numerical synchronicities were occurring is just coincidence, right?
Ok, so what to make of all this? (and yes there is more…) I can't help but think there is something that threads all of this together. That has led to my spiritual quest and I feel I am still in the very early stages of it. I still can't meditate worth beans. However it has challenged my old views of the meaning of life (and death) and psychics, and has opened up many avenues of information for me to explore beyond the typical PP resilience material that I was focused on. I am trying to keep an open mind in regards to all of the information that I am investigating. And we all know some of it is pretty out there, with much of it total BS. That being said, I have found some real gems that have led me further in directions I would never have dreamed of, with some that appear to be supported by science. I was aware of Teal Swan early in my journey, but have not looked at anything recently from her. There are others out there that I feel provide information that is more in line with what I am looking for at this time. I am certainly not looking for a guru as part of my quest (at least not consciously).
I am much less fearful of the future, as I learn to be present in the moment and pay attention to the sometimes bizarre experiences as they happen. I am trying to apply the Universal Laws to my life to see what comes of it, but appears old habits and beliefs are hard to break. Have to say though, the last year has been a blast when you get beyond the weirdness. Of course, I am still learning about permaculture, researching super-insulated house building, following the financial shenanigans (potential opportunity of our lifetime), as well as perfecting my bread making, gardening, and charcoal Weber cooking skills.
Thanks Chris and Adam for all you do, keep pushing the boundaries (are there any?). With all the unreal manipulation and cover-ups in the "real" world, I personally don't see why anyone would question the validity of spirituality as part of a resilient life. I wish everyone an interesting journey.
Resilience is 80% mental and 20% physical, because you can loose everything but not your body and brain.
I would recommend https://www.innerengineering.com/live/ (I am not affiliated with this sight, but have done the course and I like it) The guru, is a teacher and does not teach that you need to follow him or he is the only one. He is extremely rational and simple in his teachings. I like him what Stefan Molyneux is to philosophy and Chris Martenson is to sustainability Sadhguru is to knowing yourself (spirituality).
Sadhguru has a lot of youtube videos, look him up.
Although he is a Guru, he is not a "FOLLOW ME OR DIE" type of guru.
Chris: Thanks for mentioning the Christian mystics and their long history. As with everything else touched by humans, the traditional churches have been responsible for much that is bad in our history but have also been the conduit from antiquity for much that is good. Many people look at the traditional groups as requiring all believers be in lockstep with each other, not realizing they have a long history of many different people approaching spirituality in many different ways.
Closer to the present, one person whose early writings were very influential in my journey is Thomas Merton. He lived through the first three quarters of the last century and went from being a rather well to do, person of the world, to becoming a Trappist monk, devoted to a shared life of silence and meditation. Towards the end of his life he also began an intensive study of oriental/eastern traditions examining how their spiritual searching complemented his own lifetime search. I particularly like Merton because he was a man of our times. His early life, would feel very familiar to most folks who grew up in the twentieth century west. In that respect his journey is illustrative of how any one of us can be struck by the need to understand the realms beyond the everyday physical world and universe within ourselves.
Here are some of his thoughts about the natural universe:
“When we are alone on a starlit night, when by chance we see the migrating birds in autumn descending on a grove of junipers to rest and eat; when we see children in a moment when they are really children, when we know love in our own hearts; or when, like the Japanese poet, Basho, we hear an old frog land in a quiet pond with a solitary splash - at such times the awakening, the turning inside out of all values, the "newness," the emptiness and the purity of vision that make themselves evident, all these provide a glimpse of the cosmic dance.”
Respectfully as always.
JT
pbwebb…You might check out TM. I learned it in 1969 and still use it today. It is a slowing down or calming of the mind. The way it works is you repeat a "mantra" silently in your mind like "ohm" or "iang" or any 1 syllable word …with you eyes closed …sitting in a relaxed position. As you repeat this mantra a thought will break in. For example "I forgot to water the plants" …so just acknowledge that you had a thought interrupt your meditation, but don't pursue the thought, and for sure don't get up and water the plants. As soon as you realize that you stopped saying the mantra …go right back and start again. The thoughts will break in and interrupt your meditation a lot at first, but as quickly as you realize that a thought came in, you must get back to the task. After a while the thoughts break in less and less often, and eventually you go for long stretches with no thoughts. And you start to feel a calmness descend over you. (kind of like a glass of a good Cabernet) The optimal length of time to meditate is 15 to 20 minutes. A good time is at the end of the day before dinner when you want to wind down.
I regard it as "mind jogging". There is no guru or religious connotation attached for me. If I am upset or anxious TM really helps… If you have questions…you can always PM me.
Authentic leadership is a theme discussed in the interview.
Whatever you think of Teal I suggest that you will be hard pushed to find a stronger example of authentic leadership than what we've seen from Chris recently.
Now one general comment -
Chris wrote
'But I will completely put an immediate end to anyone saying "I have the one and true way, and unless you too follow it we have a problem!" That's religion without spirituality and it just creates friction and difficulty for online communities.'
and
'There are many paths, and many teachers. Most of them say exactly the same thing to me when you strip away the social and legal wrappings that got layered on over time.'
There is an old analogy that likens the spiritual journey to the ascent of a mountain. It talks of many paths which converge at the summit. We naturally tend to have a degree of attachment to our own path so my question to you is - Are you high enough up the mountain to percieve this possibility?
The following is one of the best talks on the development of religion that I've ever come across. Perhaps unsurprisingly, it's affiliated with the Johns Hopkins psylocybin trials. I'm providing the link to the video, but I'll sum up what I think is one of the most important points from the talk:
All religions are, at their outset, founded upon some kind of mystical or transcendental experience. Out of the initial organizing around that experience, doctrine, ethics and rituals are developed. Unless the religion is renewed by mystical experience, however, doctrine hardens into dogma, ethics harden into legalism, and ritual hardens into ritualism.
I think this dovetails quite well with Chris's response to Tom's post.
Check out http://www.amazon.com/The-Relaxation-Response-Herbert-Benson/dp/0380006766
I like to imagine the interrupting thoughts rolling off the back of my shoulder: thought is presented to front of head then let it roll off the back.