[quote=TechGuy]Handling Lye and Methnol is hazardous. Methenol poisioning can occur if it touches your skin or inhaled. Lye is very caustic and will burn flesh to the bone, Washing lye with water can increase the damage caused, since water will feed anhyrogous lye causing it to aggressively attack flesh. A solution of Sodium bicarbonate (works with both acids and bases). Eye contact with either Methanol or Lye will result in blindness or at least impaired sight in very small quantities.[/quote]I get the impression that you’ve not actually handled these chemicals.
I think the LD50 for methanol is about 50 milligrams, but I don’t have its MSDS handy. That’s nearly TWO OUNCES! You’ve gotta be drinking it to get that much. A bit on the skin won’t hurt you unless you soak in it for an extended period, although eye protection is a good idea.
I’ve had a particle of lye get into my glove and stay in contact with skin for perhaps five minutes. It did not “burn flesh to the bone,” but it did let me know it was there with a burning sensation after a few minutes, and did leave a tiny brown spot that went away in a few days. The standard, recommended remedy for NaOH or KOH is dilution – I don’t know where you got that stuff about it being more dangerous with water. Google doesn’t know anything about “anhyrogous” and “anhydrous” means “without water.” You aren’t trying to impress us with big words, are you? Dilute, dilute, dilute – the 1,000:1 dilution of lye I use for titration can be drunk like water with no ill effect.
For either strong bases or methanol, you want a nearby continuous source of water – a hose will do. If you get some on you, you rinse it off as quickly as possible. You aren’t going to melt like the Wicked Witch of the West before you can rinse it off.
And I’m sorry, but bicarb is NOT a remedy for bases! It is only a remedy for acids! It is itself a base! Please DO NOT apply bicarb to lye wounds and expect it to do anything but make things worse! Immediately flush lye with lots and lots of water!
So yea, be careful. Wear protective eyewear and non-permeable gloves. I use cheap nitrile ones, and re-use them until they get a hole in them. I make sure most of my skin is covered – don’t do this in shorts, T-shirt, and sandals! But otherwise, jeans and a flannel shirt do fine. Common sense trumps hyperbole and fear-mongering here.
First,Let me say that I was Full-Monty into bio-d or svo/wvo usage as a fuel for both vehicle use and home heating. If there was a mistake to be made, I most likely experienced it. My emotions ran full circle from infatuation, to love, to hate, then lastly, to understanding.
I tried to respond to techguy’s post several times but I could not for the life of me make the response constructive. I heard every objection he posed and let me just respond that for those who have walked the walk, we have heard those who talk the talk.
Now onto addressing questions asked of me.
I was trying to do the “eco-responsible” thing and not let the methanol evaporate. I found that running Graham Laming’s processor set-up removed enough of the methanol that the bio-d did not produce as much soap when washing. However, by removing the excess methanol right at the end of the processing, the glycerol was much thicker when I drained it off the bottom.
Yes - I still felt that the glycerol contained too much methanol to use for soap production to be safe. I can’t remember the ratio now, but I believe that most of the excess methanol by percentage was left in the glycerol after processing the bio-d. I know there was still a lot left because you could “light” the cool glycerol sitting in a pan. The flame burned that nice Clear-blue alcohol flame color. I am not saying that you can’t burn glycerol (you most certainly can, what I am saying is that you shouldn’t be able to hold a burning match at the surface of the pot and light the glycerol like a candle)
So, I built a methanol recovery still. It worked well but I felt that I was getting further and further down the rabbit hole.
I did make some fine soap. Real soap, not the “bath-bars” found at the store. I even made a few gallons of “degreaser” and that was far superior to any commercial product.
As far as the release of acrolein when burning glycerol logs, from my “arm-chair” research, even burning the bio-d and petroleum fuels release acrolein. I am not sure if it is more or less hazardous than burning other fuels for heat. I do know that you should NOT burn the sawdust logs slowly at low temperature because it builds up more “creosote” on the chimney walls which increases the chance of a chimney fire. Yes, I made sawdust logs too.
I never used KOH but I too have heard that it is better than NaOH for using the glycerol in compost.
In the end, I went back to “straight” wvo use. For me it was simpler, one because I didn’t have a lo of different engines to run and I found that blending with mixes up to 50% did not effect vehicle performance and didn’t require a separate fuel delivery system. What I did give up was the use of biofuel for home heating. The viscosity of the straight wvo was too much for my burner to handle.
OTHER THOUGHTS:
Since I have moved to NC, I have not dipped back into the pool of biofuels. I have had a hard enough time adjusting to the local psyche. Perhaps if I was in the Triangle area, I would have found more like minds. But, out on the coastal plains… Lets just say I keep a keen ear for the sound of banjos. In all fairness, I just watched a news story the other night where local farmers were planting - guess what - rapeseed for biofuel production.
As for the issue of methanol and lye safety, all I can say is yes you do need to be careful. If you become afraid to the point of paralysis, this gig is not for you but please, please do not use the wrong orifice of your body to speak from when warning others. Household cleaning chemicals are just as dangerous to use when used incorrectly, so are methanol and lye.
I was a city kid and never planted a cash-production crop in my life. I can only defer to those who have farmed. If Ready says that oil seed production is net energy positive, I believe him. I have no reason not to.
What I have seen in many different areas where “conventional wisdom” states that something will not work like in the growing and pressing of ones own oil. I can address this in a couple ways; one, while it may be true that if we planted every square inch of available farm land in the greatest efficiency oil seed crop, the resulting oil from that annual yield would only produce enough oil for a couple days supply, then of course biofuels are not the answer. BUT, this was not a discussion about industrial mass-production of biofuels. It is a discussion that fits very well with this entire site. Small, local, and personal sustainability. Second, it has also been asked what happens when the waste oil stream “drys up” when TSHTF. I say, it hasn’t at this point. Are we not supposed to use this time to prepare by learning and adapting and becoming resilient. Something that I have learned about those who farm is that they look inward to themselves and their land to solve a need. They do not look outward to others to solve their problem.
All in all, I know for a fact that bio-d “home brew” and wvo/svo on the local or personal scale works. It isn’t easy but it isn’t hard either. It requires the ability to stay on task and be organized. With fuel costs growing faster each month, everyone is out there talking about alternative fuels. Competition for the waste oil has increased ten-fold since 2005 when I entered the game. Back then restaurants were having to pay the rendering companies to haul it away. All I had to do was provide a barrel and agree to haul it away each week for free. Now, savvy restaurateurs charge us local guys. Even the large rendering companies have gotten in on the act and in some cases pay a small amount or with an exclusive contract, haul it away for free.
I would look to those like Ready if you are considering jumping in. From his photos, he has a very clean, organized and well thought out set-up.
C.
[quote=RNcarl]I built a methanol recovery still.[/quote]How did you heat it?
I turned a hot water heater into a vacuum still, but the glycerol burned onto the heating element, creating an insulating layer, and the element then burned out. One friend has reported good luck swapping the 220VAC element out with a 110V one, which apparently doesn’t get hot enough to burn the glycerol. I was also thinking of putting two in series for the same reason.
Been there, done that, got the (oil soaked) T-shirt. 
So you’re simply blending diesel/WVO 50/50, and not heating it? What sort of engine and pump? I’ve heard that’s only possible with Bosche inline pumps, and that much increase in viscosity will destroy a Standyne or Lucas pump within tens of kilometres.
Also, you must live someplace warm, no? I’ve heard of people in Tucson running non-heated WVO in Mercedes engines (Bosche in-line pump), but I don’t think that’s going to cut it in southern Canada.
My problem with heated WVO is that I live on an island, and by the time the engine gets up to temp, I’m at my destination. As fossil sunlight gets more dear, I think this is going to be a bigger problem for many WVO enthusiasts, as the average trip becomes shorter. I designed Veggie Van Gogh (link above) for long-haul Interstate running, and it did wonderful on WVO for that. But I no longer take long trips!
As I mentioned, we’re embarking upon an American Chestnut experiment, because in the long term, I think we need to be pushing toward perennial systems whenever possible.
I urge anyone getting started on a “doomstead” or Permaculture site to focus on protein and fat first, then carbohydrates, then vegetables. There’s a large body of vegetable knowledge out there, but much less with the other food requirements. Plus, if you integrate animals in for fat and protein, their manure greatly enables production of carbs and vegetables. But I digress…
As RNcarl writes, “Small, local, and personal sustainability” is the key. Don’t worry about feeding or fueling the world – we’re past that point. The world will have to feed and fuel itself, and each of us has a personal role and responsibility in that!
Good luck Aaron, come home safe.
1 - Disc and mother nature. Some folks here go no-till at all.
2 - Yes, when it needs it based on soil testing. Mostly it is manure.
3 - Don’t know how to do it with a broadcast spreader - maybe someone else does.
4 - I would just start with google - I’ve never been to Oz
5 - I’ve got quite a bit of variation. Clay down 1 - 3 feet, loamy on top
6 - Not really - you need to figure the best plant for your area. Olives may be it for you.
7 - interesting
8 - VegiStroke www.biofuelstechnologies.com
9 - I think that was covered in my reponse to techguy.
What was meant by that sentence was to find out if WVO was available.
To answer the water question, I use a hot pan test, however I dewater everything that comes in via centrifuge, so I don’t care what the starting water content is unless it has been sitting for a long time. WVO is a biocide, but critters live in the water and eat the oil. Algae can also grow. So getting a water free oil is only important if you are going to store it as is for several months before processing. Personally, I always store de-watered, filtered oil.
use it as a pre-treatment in BioD. Remaining meth and lye will be put back in to the starting WVO.Then use a babbington ball to burn the rest as an energy input into the system - like degumming pressed oil using hot water.
[quote=robie robinson]
OBTW, I’ll grow and combine on yield share anyone who is serious about BioD in our area. Southcentral VA.
[/quote]
Robbie, if you lived near me, we would be happy little clams. You’d keep me in seed, and I’d keep you in fuel. Too bad there aren’t more folks willing to look at it from that perspective.
I googled “olive oil as biofuel” and came up with this site: http://www.make-biodiesel.org/Ingredients/biodiesel-feedstock-oils.html
It’s got a ton of info on oils. I think olives might be a good alternative for me. I like the idea of a perennial crop (hat tip to bytesmiths), olive trees have low water requirements (Southern California), and they’re good eatin’, too!
Great idea, Nigel!! Thanks!
1. How did you heat it?
I turned a hot water heater into a vacuum still, but the glycerol burned onto the heating element, creating an insulating layer, and the element then burned out. One friend has reported good luck swapping the 220VAC element out with a 110V one, which apparently doesn’t get hot enough to burn the glycerol. I was also thinking of putting two in series for the same reason.
Been there, done that, got the (oil soaked) T-shirt.
2. So you’re simply blending diesel/WVO 50/50, and not heating it? What sort of engine and pump?osity will destr I’ve heard that’s only possible with Bosche inline pumps, and that much increase in viscoy a Standyne or Lucas pump within tens of kilometres.
Also, you must live someplace warm, no? I’ve heard of people in Tucson running non-heated WVO in Mercedes engines (Bosche in-line pump), but I don’t think that’s going to cut it in southern Canada.
My problem with heated WVO is that I live on an island, and by the time the engine gets up to temp, I’m at my destination. As fossil sunlight gets more dear, I think this is going to be a bigger problem for many WVO enthusiasts, as the average trip becomes shorter. I designed Veggie Van Gogh (link above) for long-haul Interstate running, and it did wonderful on WVO for that. But I no longer take long trips!
As I mentioned, we’re embarking upon an American Chestnut experiment, because in the long term, I think we need to be pushing toward perennial systems whenever possible.
[/quote]
- I used a 30 gallon barrel and made an active system where I circulated the glycerin from the bottom up using the Harbor freight pump. The condenser was a galvanized 3" pipe using copper scrubbers to increase surface area. The heat came from a 220VAC water heater element that I powered with 110VAC. The element lasted longer and depending on how you set up the element inside the barrel, (i did it the wrong way) you could easily change the element. I bought out a supply of them from a close-out Home Depot was having but it required a lot of effort to change the element. I only did it once just to see the build-up. Once the pump bogged down due to the glycerin getting much too thick to pump, I drained the hot glycerine for storage. Once cool it became nearly solid if I recall correctly.
- My 50/50 mix was mostly in the '83 Benz 300SD and only during the summer. She had new glow plugs and I kept her block heater plugged in except for the extreme temps in July/August. I was living in Massachusetts at the time so night time temps were pleasant for us but did make starting the Benz harder until I left her plugged in. In the CRD Jeep Liberty, I only mixed (max) 50/50 in July/August. It is important to mix outside the vehicle in some sort of fuel can. I mixed by putting 5 gallons equal parts WVO/D2 in a 15 gallon plastic barrel and rolled it up the driveway to the cars where I hand pumped it into the tank. In the winter, November, December, January, Only used D2 in the Jeep and 20% in the Benz. I never tried adding 10% RUG like some blender do because I didn’t want to trash the expensive injection pump in the Jeep.
As an aside, once I found out the strain I was putting on the complex injection pump used in the Liberty, I only added 10% WVO and that was because of using the ultra low sulfur fuel. Also, there is no fuel pump in the tank of the Liberty so the fuel is sucked forward by the injector pump system that has a pump on it.
I replaced the entire fuel line in the Benz from the tank to the injection pump, cleaned the in tank filter, and changed the in-line fuel filter once a season.
The Benz is back home awaiting a trip to the scrap heap, not due to the engine, but due to everything else falling apart, I have a nephew who may take the engine out and put it into a Jeep Wrangler.
I think the only reliable way to use WVO is with a properly designed two-tank system. That said, I recently read a discussion on the VW-TDi club site about the modern D2 fuel systems and how they treat “hot” fuel by de-fueling the engine when the system sees the hot WVO and thinks its hot D2.
Either way, it is important for everyone to understand that we are using a fuel type that has parameters the the original engine design did not account for so, each person needs to educate themselves before just going out and buying a diesel car and either dumping veg oil into the tank or trying to brew bio-d.
[quote=Ready]use it as a pre-treatment in BioD. Remaining meth and lye will be put back in to the starting WVO.
Then use a babbington ball to burn the rest as an energy input into the system - like degumming pressed oil using hot water.
[/quote]
I never got really good at that however, the first time Itried it, I used a lot less methanol.
C.
Does anyone have any expierence running the new John Deere epa approved engines on 100% Bio d ? Any insight would be much appreciated.
No specific experience. I don’t actually know what is meant by EPA approved. If that means they have a Diesel Particulate Filter, you will need to figure that out. Does it go thru a purge cycle and dump unburned diesel into the DPF when it senses back pressure? If so, BioD would be a no-no. What will happen is the higher lubricity of BioD will allow it around the rings of the engineif unburned (purge cycle) and will eventually overfill your oil pan. If left unchecked, it can cause major issues.
But, that is on-road technology that came out in 2007.5 on road trucks. I was always under the impression that off road vehicles were not expected to comply with these new rules. I would do a lot of research before going B100. B20 will most likely be OK in any modern engine. B5 is guaranteed.
For what it’s worth, I had a DPF on my 2007 Duramax that I was able to remove and run B100 without issue. I have since gone back to pre-DPF trucks for both my wife and myself to avoid the headaches.