The crisis explained in one chart: Debt-to-GDP

The only other nation’s debt/GDP ratio I’m aware of is ours in Australia. We have this great Professor of Economicss, Steve Keen, who runs a blog called debtwatch where you can find the info below (and a whole lot more - much of it relevant to you guys) http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2008/11/30/debtwatch-no-29-december-2008/

In recent history, there have been two depressions… and there are no prizes for guessing when they occured! Whilst our situation is not as dire as yours, there is no way we are going to escape the mire… and neither will the rest of the world.

Mike

 

This was more than confirmed when RBA Deputy Governor Ric Battellino
published a graph showing Australia’s long term debt to GDP ratio
during a speech in September 2007 (see Figure 8, which is augmented to
include estimates of non-bank credit prior to 1953).

Figure Eight

The model I’ve outlined above is extremely simple, and would need to
be substantially embellished to capture the main dynamics of a market
economy. But it is already streets ahead of neoclassical models by not
making an artificial distinction between the short and long term. To
paraphrase Keynes, “in the long run we are still in the short run”.

I’ve been through the CC several times, and given it to lots of friends and family. But, I am not completely clear on some issues Chris covers. For example:
If the Fed Res prints money and loans it to the U.S. gov, then what does the U.S. gov give the Fed Res as collateral for that debt? Isn’t it various kinds of treasury instruments? And, if so, does the Fed Res then turn around and sell those instruments to U.S. citizens, and foreign interests, to get their money back? If so, then the money the U.S. gov gets really comes, indirectly, from the public and foreign interests, who receive the treasury instruments as evidence of the "loan." So, now we have the public and foreign interests holding U.S. gov instruments, that passed through the Fed Res to get to these holders. And, the hope of the end holders is that the U.S. gov will make good on these instruments when they come due.
So, does this mean that the Fed Res is just an entity that handles the transactions, so the U.S. gov can get their funds instantly, and then the Fed Res is really the one that we will turn these instruments back in to, when they mature? If so, isn’t the Fed Res making interest from the U.S. gov on the money they loaned them? Yes. And is the Fed Res paying back the exact same amount to the end holders of these instruments as the U.S. gov is paying them? Or, is the Fed Res paying the end holders less than the U.S. gov is paying the Fed Res, so that the fed Res is making money on both ends? And, if the amount is the same, why is the Fed Res even involved in the process in the first place? i.e. Why doesn’t the U.S. gov just issue the instruments directly to the end holders, and eliminate the Fed Res altogether? I may be dense, but it seems to me that the U.S. gov is paying somebody else (Fed Res) a handsome amount to do what they could do themselves, i.e. print and distribute their own currency and instruments. Is this is not true, then how does the Fed Res make its money to stay in business?
Another way of phrasing it, is this: "Why the heck don’t we, the U.S. gov, handle our own issuing of currency and debt instruments?" What was the reasoning, in giving that job to private business? And, exactly what would be involved in firing the Fed Res and giving it back to us, the U.S. gov?
And finally, can somebody who fully understands capitalism, explain to me in simple terms why both households and businesses don’t use their own savings for expansion, research, etc. and earn the interest themselves that they pay to somebody else? Yes, I know that it might mean slower growth, but is that necessarily bad, if growth that is too fast just winds up making us illiquid and insolvent?
Maybe our greedy need to acquire more, faster, (over expansion) has been at the root of all our problems.

Yes, I too have been hearing the word "jubilee" a lot lately.

 

Would love to hear Chris weigh in sometime on the idea.

Beautifully explained; elegant simplicity.

 

If only they would listen to such reasoning!!!

 

What madness.

 

In an interview with Barron’s when asked, "What do you think we’ll learn from this financial crisis?," investment advisor Jeremy Grantham replied:

"An enormous amount in the short term, a fair amount in the mid-term, and in the long term, absolutely nothing."

Pretty much sums up the history of humankind.

 

Sigh.

(By the way, Jeremy Grantham predicted this fall from grace. And he’s Dick Cheney’s investment advisor. So much for Cheney’s claim that none could see this coming. What a farce.)

Wendy

 

For New Zealand (NZ) Debt graphs see http://www.johnpemberton.co.nz/html/debt_graphs.html

The data is current to March 2008 (end of NZ Financial tax year). The site points to the raw data at the Reserve Bank of New Zealand so you can go off and verify the data and see more recent data if you wish

The charts tell their own story of NZ’s love afair with debt

Regards,

Gibber

Splitting the data into two at 1985, based on the 170% level, seems arbitrary.

If you work back from now, the trend has been more or less exponential since 1970, following a flat period in the late 1960s. It was then that the US experienced Peak Oil, and became an oil importer. It now imports 5 billion barrels of oil each year, and at $147/barrel that is $741 billion/year, which is a huge slug out of any economy - enough to make it crash, in fact.

If the economy hadn’t crashed with oil at $147/b, the price of oil would have gone higher still. From the start of 2007 to mid-2008, the oil price tripled yet only 3.3% more oil was brought to market. This is the proof of worldwide Peak Oil, and of the failure of the economic theory of "free market mechanisms".

The breaking of the peg to gold was a default of sorts, and the lack of that solid backing has been used by the US Government to inflate their problems away.

In the end though, China and Russia may decide to drop the US Dollar as the world trading currency, and they will be eagerly joined by Iran, Syria, Venezuela, Bolivia, Cuba, etc. The Gulf States may also ditch the dollar for their own currency for oil exports and trade. That will prick the US bond bubble we are currently seeing, and bring in the great hyperinflation.

 

 

 

Thanks Chris for the easy-to-understand explanation. I have passed it on to all those who might be receptive. Here is a complementary article that I think CM.com readers might find enlightening (if also a bit frightening) I would encourage all to take a look.

The bond bubble is an accident waiting to happen

The bond vigilantes slumber. As the greatest sovereign bond bubble of all time rolls into 2009, investors are clinging to an implausible assumption that China and Japan will provide enough capital to keep the happy game going for ever.

for more go to:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/4218210/The-bond-bubble-has-long-since-burst-investors-ignore-this-at-you-peril.html#comments

Chris and his followers:

I am trying to grapple with the ultimate truth. I don’t want to get so caught up that I become a "believer" - it is not my nature. So I was reading this post for the xx time and comparing it to all I have learned. I came upon a post by Chris on FSU in 2006: "The United States is Insolvent" at https://peakprosperity.com/martensonreport/united-states-insolvent which stated:

"If we perform the same calculations for the US, however, we find that the official debt stands at $8.507 trillion or 65% of (nominal) GDP but when we add in our “off balance sheet” items the national debt stands at $53 trillion or 403% of GDP."

 

This debt/GDP % of 403% from 2+ years ago compares to the % in today's post of "340 percent of total GDP. "

 

Are these calculated differently or has the percentage actually dropped from 2006?

 

Any help here? I am getting lost.

 

 

[quote=Lisa G]


"If we perform the same calculations for the US, however, we find that the official debt stands at $8.507 trillion or 65% of (nominal) GDP but when we add in our “off balance sheet” items the national debt stands at $53 trillion or 403% of GDP."

 

This debt/GDP % of 403% from 2+ years ago compares to the % in today's post of "340 percent of total GDP. "

 

Are these calculated differently or has the percentage actually dropped from 2006?

 

Any help here? I am getting lost.

 

[/quote]

I’m having the same issues with not always being able to figure out which method is being used to calculate debt to GDP ratio. There are four measures floating around - one which gives a figure of 8.3%, one which gives a figure of 74.3% (this one does not include citizen debt or our longer term obligations such as social security, its the number most frequently used among mainstream economists as far as I can tell), one number gives a figure of 340%, and the last I have heard gives a ratio of 403%.

So I will join you in being confused!

However, I think I understand the difference in the last two numbers. Where Chris reports the GDP as 403% he is (probably, I think) including our long term debts (social security, medicaid) AND the debt of private citizens in addition to regular old govt debt, and in the 340% figure (I THINK but could be wrong) he is either leaving out private debt or he is leaving out social security/long term debt. So the two ratios aren’t using the same measure.

I think the following chart that I prepared will explain the matter, but not in any comforting way:

 

SOCIETY REVENUE AND DEBT BURDENS

(Based on 2008 Fiscal Year)

(Tabular $ in Billions)

 

OVERALL

Total GDP $ 14,500

Total Credit (3.6X GDP) 52,200

Unfunded Debt of Government 50,000

Total Debt of Society $ 102,200

Percentage of Total GDP 705%

 

Equivalent to Individual Earning $50,000 per year owing $353,000 in debt

 

FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PORTION

Gross Revenue $ 2,500

Total Debt 60,000

Debt as Percentage of Total 24,000%

 

Equivalent to Individual Earning $50,000 per year owing $1,200,000 in debt

 

REST OF SOCIETY

Gross Revenue $ 12,000

Total Debt 42,200

Debt as Percentage of Total 352%

 

Equivalent to Individual Earning $50,000 per year owing $175,800 in debt

 

 

 

There’s some interesting discussions on Financial Sense from 1/10: http://www.financialsense.com/fsn/main.html

Go to 3rd hour with Jim and John and listen to the forecasts. They cover the normal range from gloomy to optimistic, and then talk about the more "outside the box" forecasts of a serious crash. Good listens.

monty -

Nice work. I’ll use your numbers to help me illustrate the severity of the current and coming situation when I try to engage people and spread the word about this site.

Skylight, Lisa:

The calculation is done the same way. Remember that there are two dynamics though. Debt can go up or down and GDP can go up or down driving the percentages in directions that don’t make sense on the surface. You could have an increase in debt with a corresponding increase in GDP that makes the % drop. On the surface that would seem good, but you have the combination of two effects at work - GDP increasing (Good) more than the increase in debt (Bad). You could get a false sense of security from this.

On the other hand you could have rising debt and falling GDP (both bad, like we currently have) which makes the % rise even faster.

As long as you keep track of which factor is driving the direction the % is going, you can keep it in perspective.

Now let’s hope we can see debt start to fall while GDP rises - but that would require responsible actions by our government and society - and why would we expect that to change? Besides, hope without action is a losing strategy.

One of the things that made me FURIOUS when I watched the crash course was how our government has eroded the power of GDP by changing how it is calculated.

Was the calculated GDP used in this graph the number used by the government or a real GPD calculated by an impartial source?

The graph might appear different if we were to use actual numbers.

To those who were wondering about "real" GDP, Davos does a nice breakdown of how cooked Uncle Sam’s numbers most likely really are (scroll on down to post #7), which makes the implications of the subject of this particular thread even more ominous.

Hi montypelerin,

I think what you’re getting at has to do with what’s explained in this article, which was widely circulated on-line a couple weeks back.

The subject of GDP$ return on Debt$ injection was most recently addressed by Matt Savinar of lifeaftertheoilcrash.net, which just so happens to also refer to the aforementioned article.

The ‘debt’ should be no mystery, revelation or ‘shocker’. When a society uses ‘evidence of debt’ for its medium-of-exchange there will be debt and lots of it because there is nothing else. We need a medium-of-exchange that represents wealth monetized debt-free as an asset not a liability. Curently, the money supply only increases with more borrowing. Time does not increase the money supply. Time only increases the indebtedness. The unpayable cost of money (interest) is constantly added to the costs of production. However, no like amount of money is ever created to pay the cost of money resulting in a constant and growing spread between the price of raw products and the cost of finished products.

Mainecooncat,

Thanks for your response and references. I had seen one of the articles but not the other.

Debt has become less effective because it has polluted our economy. Rational enitities realize the unsustainabilty of the current overleveraging and will repair their balance sheets. So-called economists push for a stimulus package because they claim a tax cut would be "saved" by the unwashed masses. This rationale is incredibily stupid and elitist. To these economists, Individuals don’t matter; it is the collective good that must be served. It is hubris and desperation of the highest order that causes them to think that the will of the people can be subverted. The people will not alter their objectives because they know they cannot sustain their own personal levels of debt. They will remedy this imbalance in whatever ways they can, regardless of what the government does.

I guess my problem is still with the notion that a dollar of debt appears to have never been able to produce a dollar of GDP. The data set I have goes back to 1960 or 48 years ago. I grouped years into four year periods where my first four years ended in 1964. The change in debt over that four years when divided by the change in nominal GDP for that period was 1.7. So, even back then it took $1.70 of debt to produce a $1.00 of GDP. That relationship was relatively stable up until the late 70s when it started its dramatic rise. The most recent period the relationship was over 6.

It would seem that at some point in the past a dollar of debt had to produce at least a dollar of GDP growth. Further, up until the late 1970s both the Monetarist and Keynesian models appeared to reasonably reflect underlying reality. Yet, with the relationship of 1.7 or thereabouts to 1, I am unsure how that relationship would have held, especially using something as straightforward as the Quantity Equation.

Still perplexed.

 

 

"The surest way to overturn the existing basis of any society is to debauch the currency. It engages all the hidden forces of economics on the side of destruction as does so in a manner in which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." John Maynard Keynes

This is what’s happened. Our medium-of-exchange has been corrupted …switched from an evidence of wealth to an evidence of debt. It must once again represent wealth not debt.

The effects of the Monetary Control Act?

[quote=cmartenson]If I was ever given just one chart, just one piece of data, to make the case that we were on an unsustainable path that had a date with a long period of contraction and economic hardship, it would be this one.

Figure 1: This chart compares total debt (or “credit”) in the U.S. to GDP (or Gross Domestic Product) on a percentage basis. Current total credit-market debt stands at more than 340 percent of total GDP.

As we can see on this chart, the last time debts got even remotely close to current levels was back in the early 1930s, and that bears a bit of explanation. The debt-to-GDP ratio back then didn’t start to climb until after 1929 (blue arrow), because debts remained relatively fixed in size, while it was the GDP that fell away from under the debts. With the exception of the Great Depression anomaly, our country always held less than 200 percent of our GDP in debt (green circle). In 1985 we violated that barrier and have never looked back.

What does this chart tell me? It says that what each of us knows to be “just how the economy works” is really a historically unusual experiment with debt that is barely 25 years old. In the sweep of economic history, this barely qualifies as a blink.

It says, if you listen carefully enough, that all of our global economic growth has been fictitious. An illusion of debt.

Consider that debt had most recently been growing at a rate six times faster than the underlying GDP and you’ll begin to appreciate just how bogus the recent “growth” really was.

Here’s an example. Consider two families living side by side. Each is earning $50,000/year. At our first “GDP snapshot” of these two families, we find that each has a GDP of $50k. But the next year one of the families goes out and buys an additional $50k of goods and services for itself, using a combination of auto loans, credit cards, student loans, and a home equity line of credit (HELOC).

At our second “GDP snapshot” one family is still mired in a $50k GDP but the other has undergone an exciting 100% growth in their economy and is now sporting a GDP of $100k.

But the underlying reality is that each family still has $50k of earning power. The measurement itself introduced a fallacy by neglecting to factor out the use of credit when measuring “growth.” That is exactly analogous to the US GDP situation and explains why the US, and much of the world, is now in for a very painful adjustment process.

Debt-to-GDP for family #2 assures that they will be living under the strain of paying down those loans for years to come. Time spent living beyond one’s means necessitates a future period of living below one’s means.

And this is why “unlocking the credit markets” is pure fiction.

Nothing needs to be unlocked. What we need is to recognize the vast damage that we did to ourselves as we elevated and then clung to a set of falsehoods.

The interesting part, as is always true of every bubble, is looking back and wondering how it is that we ever believed these falsehoods.

  • It never made sense that one country could consume wildly beyond its production forever.
  • One cannot borrow and consume one’s way to greater prosperity.
  • It is not possible for an economy to be 80% service based, at least not sustainably.

A point I made in the Crash Course chapter on debt, which was that assets are variable but debts are fixed, can be broadened to include the claim that incomes are variable but debts are fixed.

That same spike in debt-to-GDP that weighed down the US during the Great Depression is now set to vault to some new stratospheric record of possibly 500% or 600% or more.

And the choices for reversing this ratio to a manageable level, notwithstanding Paulson’s confusing alphabet soup array of government bailout programs, are quite limited.

  1. Pay the debts down
  2. Default on them
  3. Inflate them away

That’s it. Those are all the options. All you have to do is decide which is the most likely outcome, and position your life and investments accordingly.

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