Treebeard: Becoming The Change We Wish To See

How does Dawkins interpret the Quantum erasure experiment?If information isn't available in our reality then that reality is fundamentally altered. If that information is retro-actively destroyed even many years later, then the results of the experiment are changed way back in the past.
This result is a body blow to any materialist. My understanding is that Dawkins is a classic materialist. (If it cannot be measured, it does not exist.) I have read one Dawkins book but it made no impression on me.
Unfortunately Dawkins' attitude rubs me up the wrong way- but that is a failing on my part, as I have an nasty reaction to fellow ape/pig hybrids who claim to have all the answers. This is an insufferable arrogance.
Somewhere in my past I have read that mathematicians have shown that all the matter in the Universe cannot hold all the information in the universe. So if a super intelligent being were to collate all the facts it would still leave vast voids of ignorance. And if this super-being were to investigate the voids of ignorance, he would do so at the expense of knowledge he had already gained. His knowledge would be a gossamer web with more hole than substance. This is in accordance with Chaos Theory. There are very real limits to our knowledge, in the same way that the speed of light is a limit to speed.
However, there is a way of bridging the vast chasms of ignorance, and that is with Quantum computing, which to my primitive mind, is Magic itself. The Q. computer can arrive at the result without investigating the Void. This is akin to hyper space jumps so beloved by science fiction writers.
So- The basic difference between Dawkins and me is that he derides my God as the god of the gaps. And I respond that my God is the God of the Yawning Chasms of Ignorance. Dawkins can rail against the Chasm but he lacks the courage to approach the lip. He prefers the comfort of the little patch of light in which he sits.

You can say a whole lot of things about Dawkins,but having a lack of courage is not one of them.I tend to find that believers project all their fears,anxieties and distrust of atheists onto Dawkins,he has become a lightening rod for all they don't like about someone challenging their worldview.Basically,he makes them feel uncomfortable by making them re-examine their evidenceless beliefs.
I like the way you go to the very edges of fringe science and present new and challenging viewpoints.I think the vast majority of it is erroneous(eg E-Cat nonsense,unsubstantiated LENR etc),but keep it up.It's good to hear contrarian views.
Your third paragraph is…interesting.I heard that the vast,vast majority of scientist and mathematicians are atheists,but I reckon the vast majority doesn't necessarily have to be right,but would you trust with an engineering problem,somebody who knows the facts and figures or somebody who does it on evidenceless faith? I know who I'd trust.

I have just added Dr Michael McKubres critical analysis of the eCat demonstration to the Cold Fusion page.

somebody who does it on evidenceless faith?
See quantum erasure Harry.

Evidenceless faith does not apply to the measurement problem. The problem is that the evidence is unequivocal. The measurement controls reality, not the other way around. The dependent variable is the material world.

How does materialist confront this issue? To a materialist the Material world is all there is, but the Measurement problem unequivocally shows that the material world is subject to the sea of information.

Here is a prosaic example. You go fishing on a hot day and return thirsty. But you cannot remember if you put beers in the fridge, nor is there any information in our reality about whether you put beers in the fridge. Then the beers in the fridge will be in a condition of superposition. Only when you open the fridge and take a measurement will the issue be resolved. There were no beers "really" in there. The fridge both had beers in it and also did not have beers in it.

This is what the measurement problem has shown us repeatedly. It is death to materialism. There is nothing "out there."

Any attempt to portray me a loony is an attempt at an ad hominem, and this fact will be pointed out. Do not worry, I will not reciprocate.


Sounds an awful lot like Schrodinger's Cat? The Beers are in quantum flux until they are viewed.I don't understand why this negates materialism.Not portraying you as a loony mate,just someone who expounds idea out of the mainstream.I've followed up your links many times,it doesn't mean I agree with them.I try not to be swayed by confirmation bias,but it's hard work.

Great topic! Thank you for accepting your fear and stepping forward. As you can see by the other comments it does indeed resonate in this group. At the end of an 18 day private rafting trip down the Grand Canyon one of our group said “Well, back to the real world.” Someone replied that what we just experienced, the fear, the laughter, the thundering water and the terrifying beauty was indeed reality, what we were going back to was made up. The times in my life that I have seen the most personal growth were the times that I had upheaval, and the times that I felt most connected and empowered, and living in the moment. More please!

I have tried to express this point in response to some of Treebeard's posts several times over the last year or so, but forum moderation didn't allow my comments to be posted. I'll try one more time because I think it is important.
The nature of this conversation is what is called "lip zen" and it is extremely counterproductive to all involved (or listening to) the conversation, and here's why: it obscure's the truth.

While I have no doubt that Treebeard and Dr. M have the best intentions, what they are speaking about actually cannot be spoken about, and to do so only serves to reinforce one's self image (aka ego) even further. It's a trap of consciousness, a form of intellectual makyo, and it is the cause of great suffering.

Dr. M quoted Shakespeare's "There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so….". A more applicable version of that quote for this situation is "There is nothing either me or you, but thinking makes it so."

One cannot use the intellect to transcend the intellect. The body is the only way.

I hope this doesn't offend anyone because that was sincerely not my intent.

All the Best…Jeff

Chris and Andrew, That was a treat. Thank you for the podcast. I’m glad you brought up McGillchrist’s Left/Right brain concepts, and the duality of technology. Chris, I’m also very glad you brought up Carl Jung in the end (and Herbie Hancock, one of my favorites). Jung’s process of individuation is the circumambulation of the Self. Integrating your shadow is bringing attention and awareness to the evil/darkness inside of you, which is what the two of you were mentioning. Circumambulation also includes the integrating of all types (Hero/Shadow, Anima/Animus, etc) Jung often saw the blaming, or seeing others as evil, as the external projection of the shadow. I’m not sure we can ever directly face or completely own our shadow side. Here in the US, we definitely have embraced the Hero archetype and have ignored the Shadow. We love a winner as CA Fitts points out in the video Arthur posted.
Jung believed that to directly confront the shadow could potentially create a psychotic break. I would guess the same is probably true with the collective shadow.  I also don’t think we can truly own the responsibility of all our actions since we are never completely conscious of them and all the ramifications. I think we can move through life and become more conscious of the process of integration, which moves us in the direction of being more centered, balanced, and whole. I keep coming back to balance and centeredness. I like to think that in our dualistic world, being at the intersection of this dualism, or the cross section of these symbolic streets, gives you a pretty good view what’s coming, time to prepare, and adjust your attention. You can’t see them all at once, but if you use your periferal vision you can see about three out of the four…about all we can ask for.

Chris, I would like to comment that although you say at PP that you try to steer clear of beliefs, the entire PP message and community is built on a belief structure. That’s not to paint it in a negative light. I understand that beliefs not rooted in facts have less rational validity, but so much of our culture and society has been built up around fact/evidence that we have to question what has been left out of the equation? Economics is the study of human choices, but the underlying assumptions of this study, i.e. rationality/optimization, equilibrium, and empiricism has to be questioned in a way that lies outside of rationalism. Otherwise we wind up back in the same circular arguments.  In the end we can’t escape our belief structures because they ground us in reality and help us bind together as a community. It’s too bad that religion has such a negative connotation with some. “Religio” means to “bind together.” So in the right “spirit,” we all try to live religious lives. In the end we have to put our faith somewhere so we can make decisions within the context of completely unknowable future.

 I personally think we experience reality directly in every moment, but we filter it through our unconsciousness. This creates the suffering we experience…the layers of repression brought on by the Ego. The more I repress into my unconscious, the more filters I use during my waking hours and the more distorted the world looks. I think we delude ourselves in thinking that we can be completely conscious of all we are seeing/hearing/experiencing and can rationally interpret it in “objective” way. The materialistic approach that other posters are debating is the epitome of this delusion and intensive filtering. Do we ever hear discussions of our dreams (literally the dreams while sleeping, not aspirations/dreams)? Not really, those are discarded because they are often repressed the minute we wake up. How many of us take the time in the morning to bring attention to our dreams, possibly write them down and contemplate them. They can often shine a light on the unconscious filters we use during the day. Our dreams can speak to us in our ancient archetypal symbolic language, but unfortunately we convinced ourselves through our narratives in the conscious world that these dreams are meaningless artifacts from our daytime experiences, or the product of a bad meal. Jung’s incredible insights came through the attention he gave to his inner world, and that was primarily through personal dream analysis.  He was no saint, and not particularly a good writer, which is one of the reasons I like returning to his works…warts and all.


Finally, I agree, we are all hypocrites and responsible for our predicament. In this realization lie the seeds of empathy and love. 

Thank you for your posts. I respect the measured and articulate way you laid yourself bare in front of the crowd, I don't know if you're couragous or a fool, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and call it couragous.  I feel as though I want to sit down with you, knee to knee, take your hands in mine, look you clearly in the eye and say "My brother/sister, I love you.  I respect your beliefs, your intellect, your courage, integrity and sincerity.  I have deep respect for everything you said, and I disagree with you on almost every single point you made.

I think one of the great, and perhaps insurmountable, challanges for this and any other culturally heterogenious population is, will we be able to recognise the importance of water, shelter, food and companionship to the entire community and make sure that everyone is warm, fed and feels somewhat secure, before we delve into the finer details of how we as individuals keep our shit together in the face of the vast unknown.

I have a genuine belief in humanity.  I also have enough knowledge of life and history to know that things can, have and will go horrable wrong.  

Courage and faith, love and peace,

John G.

Chris and Treebeard:  Good discussion and good comments that have followed.  I think this is an important discussion  to add to the mix at PP.  Searching for the "why" in addition to the "hows" behind the things that we do.  I like mobius's idea of calling this a fourth "E".  Existence. 
Arthur.  I love your posts.  You continually force me to push my brain down new paths and to make me exercise my old and sometimes very lazy neurons. I don't agree with everything you post or propose but reviewing your comments and the attachments are great thought adventures.


mthorn, others-
I believe that we can all care - those from a western religious background, those who are more eastern, new age, and those who are atheists.  And I think we have enough space here at PP to allow all four of them into the Big Tent.  We are few enough in number, we can't afford to lose anyone.

Mthorn, if you were to approach an atheist from the place of neutrality (rather than from the standpoint of wanting to set him straight in an area where you are sure he's gone off the rails) you might be able to hear his answer as to why he cares.


deserves mention in this conversation.  Intro to Quantum Physics and Eastern spirituality.
Followed by God is not Dead.  (God=Quantum Consciousness).  Good reading.  Zen

PS Great ideas on "enlightenment" too, especially his Quantum Creativity book.  I met the man and he's the real deal.

Best podcast ever. Keep it coming Chris. Your insights on this topic are very useful. We are all on the same journey in our own unique way at our own unique stages. If we weren't we never would have entered the Peak Prosperity world long enough to hear your podcast. We would have said "this is not me"; flung aside the Crash Course book, clicked past your webpage and ran the other way… back to the standard narrative in search of solice there (good luck with that). Maybe some of us did, at first. And maybe we all still do that to various degrees… circling in and out of the standard narrative… trying to find a balance between the old path and the new path in ever decreasing circles of confusion. Please do more podcasts like this. (Great idea Mobius on adding E=Existence to the 3 E's).

Bob says it best for me.

In a soldier’s stance, I aimed my hand At the mongrel dogs who teach Fearing not that I’d become my enemy In the instant that I preach My pathway led by confusion boats Mutiny from stern to bow Ah, but I was so much older then I’m younger than that now
The rest of the poem is worth committing to memory too.

Um, one might be unconvinced by the evidence one has looked at (could be about anything, not just ‘faith’), but that doesn’t make it valid to assert that there’s no evidence.

That is a false dichotomy.
Please let’s take better care with logic.

Thanks for the comments you made to Mthorn10. I have been a Christian since I turned eighteen, forty-two years ago. It has been a very interesting walk and I do not regret a moment of it (except maybe those moments when I was not operating based on my faith). I know that many participants at PP are atheists, agnostics, or just not into any type of belief or faith in anything beyond the here and now.

I have not used the platform at PP to proselytize. There are other places for that. I do feel my participation here has brought me insights helpful for understanding the world and have clarified aspects of my beliefs and how to live them in our current situation.  Hopefully, some of my comments and thoughts have done the same for others.

 Over the years there have been postings which could be taken as negative towards anything spiritual.  There have been times when those snarky and negative remarks left me feeling marooned on an island where no one spoke my language.

When I saw Mthorn10’s words this morning and then read HarryFlashman’s replies my heart skipped a beat.  Here we go I thought. Christians vs. atheists, spiritualist vs. materialists. The lines will be drawn and the bashing will begin. I was pleasantly surprised to see the two of you reach out to Mthorn10.  You didn’t let him off the hook about the nature of his comments but you did not attack his person.  No ad hominem bombs. Both of you went out of your way to invite Mthorn10 to participate further in PP.

Chris and Treebeard have opened up a door.  If we keep it open it will lead many of us to uncomfortable places we would not have chosen. My sense is that the “why” and “what does it all mean” questions are in our genes.  We all face them, even if only to finally scoff at the whole effort, decide there is no meaning and go off to have a beer. (Not advocating that, but even as a Christian I have friends that have come to that conclusion and we still find ways to get along.)  Having faced these questions will be a source of strength when things become difficult.

 To HarryFlashman:   It is possible  to  choose not to be offended.   One of  the ideas from the podcast was that you can control your reactions.  How you react will greatly affect the world around you and your ultimate well being. I try to not take offense, especially if the offender did not intend to offend.

To Mthorn10.  Jgritter said it. You are courageous.  I would love to discuss some of your thoughts and comments in a one on one communication.

Sorry this is so long.  Thanks to you all.  PP is one of the most intelligent and adult places in my life.

I recently watched a documentary on Netflix titled "I am". Before the film was half over I had a notepad out so I could capture the names of the interviewees, some familiar to me and others not, and the institutes that are described in the film as working at the intersection of the domains of both science and what has come to be described as spirituality, to include the religions. The film opened the door for me to the existence of the Institute for Noetic Sciences and Heartmath. What little I've absorbed so far has given me a new jolt of optimism about the futures of ourselves individually, our species and the planet. Much of what took place in your podcast here resonates strongly with the discussions in the film.

So much to resonate with here… having one of our own step forward and bring their passion better in to view for the benefit of all of us… Thank you Treebeard!  The response in comments is remarkable too… so many new/old members/posters have been drawn to this…  I sure hope the series will continue Chris and Tree.  So much fertile ground there.  
While I may preach in the Gold threads… I will not do so here.  I can only relate my own experience, which was to reject existentialism early on and be open to my own interpretation of what God is rather than accepting one of the pre-packaged concepts.  For me, the more I learn about quantum mechanics, the more I grow convinced that we are tied into the universe through our consciousness - and that we, or our souls if you will, remain so after our physical bodies die.  I join others who enjoy Arthur Robey's meanderings in the realm of quantum physics.

I have come to believe… or really to know on my own terms… that death is merely a transition, not to be feared.  I would highly recommend Eben Alexander's book, "Proof of Heaven" in this regard… about his near death experience.

While I have had my own experiences… I will relate one from a friend of mine who lost a very close friend of his last year.  The guy who passed was in plumbing and heating… owned a small business.  He was also an ex-marine and gun enthusiast… and he made a really stupid mistake pulling a loaded shotgun out of a barrel that had a "sock" on it.  He had told my friend at one time that his furnace was OK, but that the electronics on it were the weak link and prone to failure.  The day after he died, my buddies furnace went out.  He went down to check on it and it was flashing an error code.  He reset it, and it ran for a while, then went back to an error code.  He reset it again and it was better after that.  Coincidence, or the application of a small pulse of energy from one realm into another as a way of saying, I am still here, and I still have my sense of humor?                           

The podcast was fun and touched a number of emotionality sensitive spots, worthy of further discussion( if you can afford the time). I, however, live in Alberta within the sight of two flare stacks that are attached to a series of pipelines delivering gas to many of you living south of the 49th. We can't ignore a depleting resource world, but can we afford to hole up and wring our hands over the plight of our human condition (I suppose, if you have the time).
Peter Tertzakian has written, the End of Energy Obesity, which delightfully explores a different scenario and may warrant reading. You cannot ignore human history or our avaricious nature as part of the future. For most of us, it is really a matter of time. I think it was Sam Goldwyn who said, "what has posterity ever done for me!".

It would be interesting to hear responses to this:

Hindsight really is 20/20, eh?

Chris & Andrew, great conversation gentlemen.  I cannot begin to tell you how pleased I am to know that key community members hear at peak prosperity are awakened and receptive to higher and expanded levels of human consciousness and awareness.  I'm not surprised by this discussion really, as the pull toward peak prosperity and the deep resonance with Chris's and his team's work has been "intuitive" and "instinctual" as much as it has been intellectual.  I suspect that there are many in the pp community that will be pleased to hear you step into this line of discussion.  The headlines and the madness of the world today are not the problem, they are the symptoms…symptoms of a  largely misdirected and misguided sense of self within much (most) of the earth's population.  A growing awareness of this fact and a wider spread awakening to the higher reality is key to our future on this planet if we are to survive long term.  Your reference to the work of Eckhart Tolle made me smile…one of the most enlightened individuals alive today in my humble opinion.  Thank you for the great work that you and your team do in sharing and expanding this emerging human awareness.