I am, as the most prepared person I know, to embark on a battle. It is ‘tween C10H14N2, C2H5OH, and my well being. I have lost 30lbs in the last year and exercise daily thru farm work and cardiopulmonary work, as OOG knows rural America moves on diesel fuel and OH. All the positive thoughts and “prayers” are appreciated.
husband of a wonderful partner,father to great children,farmer of loved and husbanded land,oh an a fair optometrist
You can speak about whatever you wish. You know where I stand on that. Unfortunately there is a rather large cohort of people who do not wish to engage here on the topic. I have seen it demonstrated numerous times. The owners of this site avoid it . It has nothing to do with the three E’s . It cannot be quantified, datafied reduced to a chart or proven.
For me the spiritual component is the overwhelmingly largest component of life, but it is entirely personal. Part of my spiritual upaya is karma yoga which is why I engage here at all.
If there’s truly no hope for these United States, and we’re simply in decline (Roman Empire style), I see little long term reward for resilience, because it amounts to throwing good money after bad, at least in the span of our lifetimes, no matter how carefully we prepare. For example, I’m sure there are many resilient people in South Africa (of all races) but I’m also sure many of them would/did trade in their “resilience” for a passport to a more coherent and functional nation state.
Now, some (i.e. PP) may say just move to the country, away from the corrupt cities and everything will be fine once you have a self sufficient homestead. All fine and good, but the history of nations shows that that country/city are interdependent. The whole thing has to work or nothing works. See: Argentina, Ukraine, Venezuela, etc. Note these countries had some of the most blessed geography, natural resources and human capital in the world. But in the end it didn’t matter. Politics trumped everything.
Now, if this is just another Fourth Turning, and we just need to prepare to get through to better times on the other side… That’s my dream scenario and I think it’s still very possible. It’s my hopeful plan A.
However, if any of the first 2 scenarios are probable, you have to ask yourself: what’s your Plan B country? Plan C? Have you even researched immigration to other countries? Are you taking steps to achieve dual citizenship? I have and… it’s not easy/cheap/fast if you want to do it legally.
Cicerone:
You raise an important and insufficiently explored point about geography and where civilization flourishes during or after a collapse. This is an important issue because reasonable people need to get their wazoos out of the matrix and find a resilient community immediately, if not sooner (or are seriously thinking this way, and some of us have started years ago) If it is not possible to avoid the collapse, then what is the point?- seems to be your message. But your examples are land locked nations that had no chance to be resilient in the first place (Venezuala etc.) You did NOT consider the city states of Singapore, Malaysia or Iceland (which seems to have figured things out very early) and other places such as Holland during its time, the northern Italian city states, the American 13 colonies in an era of relative isolation etc.
I disagree generally with your conclusary statements regarding “history of nations shows” that it is not possible to escape a collapse because of “interdependent” nature of things.
Instead history is full of examples (which are mostly ignored in our history classes) of successful resilient communities and entire countries. BUT these are successful in large part due to geographic isolation. The best example is the Japan Islands between 1625 and 1850 (the “Edo Period”) where a complete “country” developed a much higher civilization than existed in Europe up till then and was based on energy/food/resource independence. Isolation allowed a high standard of living. For example, that entire “nation” of 20-30 million people during their entire existence never even had the black death. Their biggest problem was the development of a very intricate social system and they evolved a culture of shunning and non-cooperation with central authority figures in order to deal with the sociopath problem. (they developed tools to limit growth of sociopaths at the local level) There are many other examples, but resilience/sustainability must be combined with isolation or remoteness. Venezuela is not a good example of this.
Even the collapse of Rome was followed by long periods of resilient community popularity where reasonable people figured out how to preserve and enjoy elements of the lost culture. Many communities were built in remote regions but our history classes ignore such things because they did not involve large armies killing each other. My region of Japan (inner islands/pirates etc.) has no formal history because not enough people died to make a footnote in a history text. But our entire understanding of pre-Roman Greek philosophy for example is a result of a resilient community in Ireland that kept itself out of the darkness via resilient living and carefully copying ancient texts. Many successful resilient communities have existed and are alluded to but not a central topic of history books because not enough blood was spilled.
There is no question in my mind that efforts to build resilient communities such as CM’s Massachusetts new property and associated group can and will be the most important thing going for humanity in general. Every person should find a place that is hard to “get at” either physically or spiritually. (ie. a place that the sociopaths who are oozing out of the framework presently either ignore (because we are stupid, poor dirt farmers) or cant deal with geographically due to energy costs (an island in the Pacific, Iceland, a community in Siberia).
I am responding to your good comments because this topic is very important and I want to get more information . Does anyone know of a single book or source of information of geographic communities that were built after/during Roman collapse for example? I find references to such in larger tomes but can find no research/description of this subject per se. Fortunately for me a 200 year history of a 20-30 million member advanced resilient community (which was ignored in all of my history courses) exists as one example because the Japan Islands group was able to write their own history books. There is a good book on the Irish monastery that I mention. But many others existed. Someone needs to review this larger topic and write a book on this. I would be happy to join you, if you take the initiative…
Again CM’s efforts in Massachusetts is a shining light. I am on a small island and our future has never been as bright as it is now. We have young families moving here from the big cities and bringing skills with them. Other small farmers in this small-farmer country are seeing their businesses grow dramatically now.
A resilient community designed/built/operated by rational thinkers who respond to logic (such as engineers or scientist-thinking of CM here) could actually be considered the next step in the development of human civilization. Such thing is worth spending all your time/money on and even (at some point) dying for. These new resilient communities have been generated successfully before and likely will propel humanity to a new golden age.
prozac was found to reduce viral loads in vitro by 2 orders of magnitude at normal dosage. however other SSRIs tested did not have this effect. also south korea gave babchi seed extract to patients with SC2 and it significantly improved outcomes. babch seed is an old aruvedic remedy… available over the counter in europe.
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.14.150490v1
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.antiviral.2020.104781
https://www.news-medical.net/news/20200616/Antidepressant-fluoxetine-(Prozac)-suppresses-replication-of-SARS-CoV-2.aspx
https://www.firstpost.com/india/covid-19-treatment-german-researchers-say-anti-depressant-fluoxetine-can-reduce-viral-replication-in-coronavirus-patients-8485301.html
Jim, I don’t wish to engage in questions of spiritualism, magic, little green men or quantum anything. I have only seen one thing in my life that has never been explained to my satisfaction. My stepmother could raise tables. This falls into the category of telekinesis I guess. I suspect that whatever was going on there was not particularly mystical or spiritual. In fact, I suspect that if we could figure it out, it is probably common as dirt.
When my stepmother was a young woman she was approached by an Asian woman who told her that she (stepmother) had this ability. My guess is that the power is rare, but not spooky.
Raising tables was something she did at parties or at random when there were enough people around with an interest in seeing it.
The set up was that my stepmother would sit at the end of a table, any table. People would sit around the two adjacent sides of the table, leaving the opposite end open. Everyone would rest their hands on the table palms down. My stepmother would then start commanding the table to rise. Soon afterward the opposite end of the table would rise off the floor. She could get it up on one leg too.
Then she asked the participants if they had questions they would like answered, not including questions about death. She would set up the rules: tap once for yes, twice for no, that sort of thing. She could get it to spell out answers, but that usually took too long because the table would tap out the letters, 1 for A, 2 for B, etc.
After witnessing this many times and having a lifetime to think about it, I have concluded that she was unconsciously controlling the answers because they always seemed to be answers that she would give if she were having a chat with friends. And, the answers would never hurt a person’s feelings. That was her nature. Also, the tables were never particularly right in the answers. I think usually they were what the asker wanted to hear.
At any rate, I know the phenomenon was real because I lived with her and she was a painfully honest person. She would do it spontaneously when she had no time or equipment to rig something up. Besides, the most she ever carried was her purse. No place to conceal equipment necessary to lift large heavy, usually dining room tables.
At any rate, I’ve always wondered what the force is that allows such things.
“But only a single $1200 stimulus check has been sent to the poorest of American families.” Ummm…no.
People who lost their jobs, even 1009 contractors who would normally not be eligible for unemployment compensation, are receiving not only their state’s unemployment compensation but an additional $2400 a month from the federal government. Studies indicate that up to 20% of recipients are actually making more on unemployment than they did when employed and a majority are making just as much as they did while employed. That in addition to the CAREs money they might have received. The unemployment benefits will likely be extended and chances are good that everyone under a certain income level (this time likely a bit lower than the $99K income in the first round, which Chris describes as the poorest of Americans…seriously $99K income is the poorest of Americans?) will be receiving another stimulus check from the government. Furthermore, the federal government has implemented rental and mortgage help of various kinds to those who need it. So even if you still have your job and make under $99K, you got free money from the govt. If you were unfortunate and lost your job, you are getting much more! This is not to say that these measures will save us; they may only stave off a reckoning.
My point is: the doom and gloom in this post mimics the doom and gloom we got on this site post 2008. I bought it hook, line, and sinker last time. Not so fast this time. I learned that the Fed has unlimited magic tricks. In my understanding, the Fed can pull this off as long as there is trust in the dollar and economy. I don’t have a crystal ball so I have no idea how long that will last. No one knows when the Fed will run out of magic tricks (or the tricks will no longer work) and it a conceit to proclaim this knowledge.
Now as to the realities on the ground. I agree many in this country sense that the system is rigged and the elites are the recipients of a rigged system. But, there’s a lot to unpack there as the outcomes are nuanced. For example, I am willing to bet that many of those protesters are able to protest because they are unemployed BUT receiving checks from the government. The news media are driving certain narratives….I just wonder how it is that we suddenly have a lot of starving people when anyone who lost their income can easily apply for and get unemployment PLUS $600/week. (I, personally, am not drawing COVID unemployment but I have talked to enough people that have told me how easy it is to get.) If these people were food insecure before COVID, they are probably food insecure now because they didn’t have a job when COVID hit.
This also explains to me why I am hearing from my friends and family that the tourist spots are packed. My friend who owns a hotel and restaurant on the beach has done double the business this summer. Another friend who has a resort on the East Coast, same report. My brother has Airbnb’s and he has never been so fully booked. The same was reported by my friend who has several Airbnb’s. We’re not talking about tourist spots for the rich, these are just your every day, middle-class type of vacation facilities. At first it confused me. Then I thought it through. If you temporarily or permanently lost your job during the pandemic, the government is giving you MUCH more than $1200. The lockdown drove you and the kids crazy; you’re not working but still getting money deposited in your bank account. Load up the kids and road trip to the nearest tourist destination.
As for real estate. I pay very close attention to two real estate markets: Austin Texas and Los Angeles. I have seen nothing but a hot seller’s market where houses are flying off the shelf. As a personal anecdote, my dad just sold his $1M + house that is in an area of Austin where houses usually stay on the market for months. He had two full-price offers within a week of listing it and closed in less than a month. Maybe LA and Austin are anomalies, but at this point, I don’t see the move out of urban real estate.
I have tried to make sense of all this. A few things stand out for me. The economy will almost certainly be propped up (and people will continue to receive money from the federal government) until at least the election. Most people sense that the system is corrupt, but they don’t really understand the Fed’s role in this. That is very complicated and most people aren’t going to dig that deep. The “elites” and the media are all too happy to turn everyone’s attention to the problem of white privilege as the culprit.
Many years ago when I frequented this site, I started to question the wisdom I received here. My questioning comments were pilloried enough that I just checked out of the website. (It felt a bit cultish.) With COVID, I happened upon the site again and I think Chris offers a lot of interesting and good information. And I believe Chris is sincere. But this post reminds me of why I decided the site did not contribute to my rational sensemaking.
Will this come tumbling down? Yep, someday - I know not when, but I won’t be surprised if it doesn’t happen in my lifetime. In the meantime, I am going to keep my eyes and ears open, but I am not going to “brace for impact.” Been there, done that.
@Mots:
Thanks for the counterpoints. I hadn’t thought of Japan. Edo Japan is certainly an inspiration. Ireland as a beacon during the Dark Ages is also something of a model. Both islands, obviously.
The other examples I’m not so keen on. After Rome fell, the remaining residents of the Italian peninsula endured centuries of rape and pillage by and between barbarians vying for control. It took nearly 1000 years for the city states, founded by said barbarians (e.g. The Lombards) to stand on their own and develop coherent cultural identities that people were willing to die for. They were successful because the fortified city offered protection and strength in numbers. Nonetheless, after the Renaissance, the city states were overrun and carved up by France, Spain and Austria until nationhood came in the 1800s.
In other words, if a regular Giuseppe could, in year 400, peer into the future, he’d probably jump on a boat to Byzantium rather than run to the hills of Tuscany and plant a garden. That’s certainly what the “smart money” did and “Rome” lived on for another 1000 years because of them.
As for places like Holland, Singapore, etc. these kind of small trade dependent nations only thrive in a peaceful environment between their large neighbors. As for Argentina and Venezuela, both are countries that have abundant natural resources, seaports and every natural reason to be successful and self sufficient, but yet, they’re crappy unsafe places to live because of internal politics, whether you live in the country or the city. Well, Argentina isn’t Venezuela level of course. Malbec, steaks and beautiful women. They do know how to live! Certainly some lessons on how to collapse with style!
Anyhoo, I guess my point is that I have a hard time finding examples of small scale homesteads thriving when, just a 100 miles away, there is an urban collapse scenario. Perhaps, like the Swiss, we can carve out an isolated mountain republic that will secede from the US proper. I cringe a bit, but you can’t knock what the Mormons have accomplished in the Utah high desert.
The historical lesson I’m drawing here is that there’s strength in numbers. Strength in culture. Strength in well run cities and armies. And yes, strength in geographical isolation, self sufficient agriculture, etc. But unless you’re talking about a temporoary soft collapse (e.g. another Great Depression), none of these lessons point to tiny, isolated, car dependent cities in Western Mass being a great strategy long term. Just saying…
You raise some interesting points and questions.
First you ask if “there is no hope for these United States”? The US obviously is a political construct. All political constructs will eventually end. That is an indisputable fact. If you have a vested interest in this particular political construct I could see why one would be concerned with its continued existence. Of course citizens of the US have for centuries enjoyed the fruits of empire. It is a very seductive state of being. It is well to remember this political construct was born on land stolen from indigenous people who were murdered and incarcerated on gulags. It was built by slaves who were brought here in chains. The descendants of those people are now asking for their piece of the pie. Thus we are experiencing an increase in violence and protests. We see that because clearly there is no other recourse. Voting is a complete joke.
I find it very interesting that you mention PPer’s moving to the country. That seems to be a solution to the dilemma. There are two aspects to your query and points. One is the macro the other the micro. The OP is about the macro and a number of responses have to do with the micro, ie. what individuals are doing. I can assure you that moving to the country is not a panacea. I have lived in the country for 50 years in different states. It presents another set of issues.
So the question is about hope. Is it in regards to the political entity or the people? Is it about hope that things will be the “way they were”?
My position is I am a citizen of the universe who has been born under the rule of a particular mafia known as the US. Not identifying as a citizen has enabled me to look at the world through a different lens. I have more flexibility in where I choose to live and a host of other choices.
The other question that comes to mind is timing. Is this a slow decline or a rapid collapse? As stated SC2 has accelerated events. Also relations with other countries especially China are as bad as they have ever been.
Finding a bugout country is certainly an option but with flexibility comes options. One member I am friends with has a boat. I find that a workable solution. When I was in Mexico I met a couple who had a “homestead sailboat” complete with chickens, tomato plants, solar panels and a solar distiller. I know one thing for certain being able to think outside the box is a very valuable talent. Here is an example. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5pZ7uR6v8c
Chris Hedges has explored the collapse of the US, here is his take.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csI8JLJ15Ak
Ironically what comes to mind is the Chinese curse, " May you live in interesting times"
- The Yale social scientist James C. Scott has written a number of books focused around his combined respect for agrarian societies and early non-state organization (which he categorizes within the designation “anarchism”). You might find it interesting to review some of his effort to reconstruct the outlines of early non-state societies in upland China (“The Art of Not Being Governed: an anarchist history of upland southeast Asia”), and his critique of state efforts to make life better (“Seeing Like a State: how certain schemes to improve the human condition have failed”). The first goes to the importance of being able to isolate geographically that you mention - but something I maintain is not really possible now. Even in your situation the fact remains that the Japanese central government could exert control whenever it chooses, which was not true for early state governments. They could not militarily enter remote, difficult terrain with either the tools to let them dominate local resistance or the strength to fight upon arrival. (This is why the early Hebrews were “mountain people,” and why the Berbers lived in tents in the deep desert. It is also behind Ayn Rand’s visionary Gault’s Gulch.) Those days are gone; there is no place on the globe where a state cannot extend its reach efficiently and with overwhelming force. (Relatedly, Scott has also written on forms of peasant resistance, and the art of resistance in situations of domination.)
In my opinion, if “Atlas” wants to “shrug” in the modern world he must do so by withdrawing from the market economy and strive to live inside some state’s borders as a non-participant. Even that cannot be done 100%. The “Grey Man” approach becomes useful here, too.
The US may not be the best place to weather the coming storm, but the simple fact is that we do not know how each country will respond to the breakdown of our interconnected international economy. You plant your personal flag somewhere and strive to build the 8 forms of capital in whatever time remains. Then kiss your butt and pray. I also think the average American is very decent and in hard times we will largely pull together. In time, too, our cultural DNA will assert itself, leading to a restoration of individual liberty and sound market principles, undertaken with greater sobriety. In my post-apocalypse Utopia those who want the right to appropriate commons resources will be responsible to also help provision them - that’s what produces frugality and sustainability. We just need to weather the interval between “now” and “then.” And that’s what arks are for. - Political economist Elinor Ostrom took an economist’s view on governing, especially at the very local level, with an interest in evaluating shared governing of the commons. In “Governing the Commons: the evolution of institutions for collective action,” she uses a half dozen past and current examples of self-governance by very local groups to identify what is essential to successful self-governing communities. Her cases involve several vertical levels, with increasing complexity and sanctioning authority. Along the way, she also visits the benefits and drawbacks of outside recognition by state powers or their regional delegates. You might enjoy reading about successful very local self-governing groups. One Spanish group has been going over 500 years; another, in the mountains of Switzerland, has almost as storied a past.
A primary lesson I drew from her work is that those with rights to appropriate a common resource must also have responsibility to provision that resource, and must be held accountable by the community for following the community’s rules about both sides of the equation. This, in my opinion, points to a primary problem with cities, and indicates why larger cities are necessarily more fascist (government intervention in private enterprise), statist (strong power to regulate interpersonal and personal expression), and colonial (appropriating resources from the periphery to sustain the center without participation in the provisioning those resources) in orientation.
I’d almost argue that real personal freedom is not possible to the urbanite, only to the agrarian journeyman; that what we mean by “liberty” in our modern, urbanized culture is what any agrarian philosopher of even just 100 years ago would label “license” because today those who take have no obligation or expectation to return in kind and quantity. The farmer of yesteryear understood you can’t do that or you’ll upset the balance of nature - including moral nature. But in the city with its 24/7 culture of superfluous consumption and profligate waste there is no conception of obligation or (moral) duty to build up the resource one appropriates and lightly tosses into the gutter.
The citified society is “the brave new world” where “all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins” (see comment #30). It’s living against “nature’s laws” and “nature’s God” – something our farmer founders understood that we don’t (we’ve banished both nature and her God from the cityscape and the culture it spawns), but which if we did would spotlight why our current way is failing.
Thank you VT
I definitely have to look up your references.
I wonder how the mennonites Pennsylvania/Dutch or whatever you call them, fit in regarding your comments in paragraph 2.
Very astute observation about why cities are fascist. I would want to consider this phenomenon when creating obligations at the rural level as well. A very good point.
By my light, Mr. Martenson has laid out our predicament pretty well. I’m most grateful for his letting us in on the (unending) journey to understand it, although I don’t really understand being resilient in a predicament (there is no way out). I guess I’m one of those evil good-for-nothing boomers (put man on the Moon, computers, organic natural foods, meditation, internet, every imaginable flavor of iced cream, MIND CONTROL, moohahaha!) that have screwed up the world. I understand how you feel, haven’t been much of a fan either (BTW: Richard Millhouse Nixon was part of the Greatest Generation, “turning” somewhere between 2nd and 3rd on a stolen turn, but definitely Right-wing’n). You want to throw me into a box and send me over a cliff. OK, OK! But before you do you might want to hold on to the box because your children might need it. No matter which way they are “turning”. Can we at least sing together before my final flight? “Highway 61, Revisited”
Next time you see me comin you better run.
Great post.
guys, I found these two dosage protocols… which are for prophilaxis and which are for anti-viral… who knows?
| Drug: Hydroxychloroquine
Hydroxychloroquine 400mg twice a day (BID) on day 1, followed by 200mg BID for days 2-5
Drug: Azithromycin
Azithromycin 500mg on day 1, followed by 250mg once daily for days 2-5
Drug: Zinc Sulfate
Zinc sulfate 220mg once daily for 5 days |
|
| Experimental: Experimental Arm 2
Hydroxychloroquine
Zinc sulfate
|
Drug: Hydroxychloroquine
Hydroxychloroquine 400mg twice a day (BID) on day 1, followed by 200mg BID for days 2-5
Drug: Zinc Sulfate
Zinc sulfate 220mg once daily for 5 days |
I have been searching in the US for months… where can I get access to this??
The dosages you posted are for treatment not for prophylaxis.
It is to the best of my understanding that 400mg once a week is sufficient for prophylaxis. It has a half life of 40 days in the body. No one knows since there are no studies. This is NOT medical advice
You cannot get a script for HCQ for off label use. You can get a script for Lupus, Rheumatoid arthritis and a few other dermatological uses. You can also get one for malaria prevention if you are traveling or living in a place where there is a risk of malaria.
I doubt any doctor at this time is going to prescribe it if you don’t have a previous history of need. Your options are ordering online from India (search the forums for a thread posted by Peggy about that) Or you can get Chloroquine from River Pharmacy in Canada online w/o a script. You cannot get the HCQ from them.
Option 2 is get some Ivermectin. It is an anti parasitical that has a very good anti viral profile. It is a one time treatment. See my post Ivermectin in Peru. Chris was supposed to post a video on it but has not as of yet.
Good Luck
BTW I highly recommend you check with your physician before you take HCQ. You need to get an ECG to make sure you are not at risk of cardiac issues. HCQ does have contraindications and side effects.
The title of the article is disingenuous. I couldn’t find anywhere in it that the president called the virus a hoax. Correct me if I am wrong.
This is not in support of Trump, I am just tired of manipulative headlines.
…and, yes, plenty of lies have been told during this entire fiasco.