Chris, of course both the WHO and Trump can be criticised and I hope they both are, because they both deserve it. Trump dilly-dallied moreso than the WHO and then tried to blamed in on the WHO and others.
So, is there anything about the current crisis that will get worse if the WHO is defunded? If so, then there needs to be a more nuanced call than simply defunding, now. If not, then I agree that it should be closed down immediately and saved money going to other project to do something positive as regards the virus.
It wasn’t just US citizens that were allowed to return from China. US residents and their families also. And what were the self-isolation requirements of those who did return? It’s a genuine question because I don’t know. If there were no requirements then the so-called ban merely reduced the risk of importing the virus from one country but didn’t eliminate that risk.
Interesting. Virginia has shops closed, but we have complete free movement. In fact, I don’t think the cops have any interest in pulling anybody over. Many speed traps have disappeared.
I am so ashamed of my fellow neighbors in Michigan. I was appalled hearing and seeing the protest and especially with how much they were not social distancing or wearing masks. I have to go to work still as an essential employee and they are putting us all at risk. On top of that, most of them had Trump signs or brought Guns and this ended up more as a political rally than an actual protest. Additionally, they were comparing our governor to Hitler because of our stay at home order, which is very extreme. I unfortunately do believe there will be a large spike in cases within the next two weeks.
Yes there were a LOT of American flags in Lansing MI. There were tens of thousands of cars and a few hundred people on the grounds of the capital. Who cares if they were legally carrying firearms, are you familiar with 2nd amendment? How about 1st Amendment? Ever hear of the 14th Amendment?
Gov Whitless has gone too far, and people are fed up and not going to take it anymore.
The reality is that the WHO has been a colossal failure to the entire world. There is no reason why any country other than China should be trying to cope with this virus. China alerted the WHO at the beginning of January that they had a problem, after it was out of control there. The WHO’s advice should have been for China to immediately close her borders and airports until such time as the virus was no longer a threat, and to advise all other countries to ensure this happened. This is what the behaviour should have been. Instead, countless people around the world are mourning the unnecessary loss of loved ones, and others are dying alone in hospital beds.
The other reality is that most, if not all, countries have their own health officials and should be responsible for the well being of their own people. In this age of instant communication and sharing, the existence of an organisation such as the WHO should be questioned.
Born and raised in MI. The Governor went too far when she tried to outlaw seeds and HCQ. We cannot further lose our Freedom in facing the realities of this pandemic. There is a balance to be struck. If we were not already facing a battle to maintain our Constitution maybe things would be different, but the fact is that we are. Those of us who value the Constitution and want our kids to have it’s protections have already been in a fighting stance before this virus broke out.
Why isn’t Alea Hewson ashamed that her Governor tried to keep hydroxychloroquine from the people, potentially causing thousands of needless deaths? The MI authorities literally threatened doctors against using it, and Dr. Dave Janda, one of my personal hero’s, took up the fight and eventually got it reversed. He talks about it, in detail, here starting at about 7:00;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHbk_-TnwWY
I saw a blog from a MI Dr that recently prescribed HCQ, and almost immediately received an email from the state stating they were watching his script writing. Thanks for the Janda Link, I first heard of him on PP in IRC, 2016.
People are FED UP. They went too far. There are lots of videos online that show the sheer volume of cars. My favorite was a professional level drone video that went all the way to the freeway. Did you watch whitless press conference? Condescending doesn’t even begin to describe it. Plenty of lawyers have already stated that her order is unconstitutional. Nicholas Somberg has offered to take on any tickets received, pro bono. He represented the first 3 that went to court, and there were 4 thrown out that day.
What is really disturbing are the number people that are completely willing to throw “violators” in jail. Chris has frequently talked about a balance. Whitless went way too far. The freaky part, nurses are being laid off, and they actually closed 1 hospital in the Detroit area. None of the patient overflow areas were ever used either. The backlash is huge, people have had enough.
What really scares me, is the number of businesses that will likely go bankrupt. One friend of mine is very successful, and owns or is part owner in three completely unrelated businesses. He’s very concerned two of them will permanently close, making several dozen employees permanently unemployed, and could take down the 3rd business too.
Another friend has completely closed up his business, said he’s done.
I work for a large fortune 50 corp. What’s public knowledge is scary. Large scale temporary layoffs, some unknown permanent layoffs. Salary employees pay reduced 20-50%. This is on the public side. I’m very worried about MI economy. 20% reduction in tens and tens of thousands of employees, and hundreds of thousands of union employees collecting partial pay is going to hurt and hurt bad.
What is going to be interesting is to see how to start up assembly plants. Thousands of global suppliers all deliver parts on time to the assembly plant. One part not there, means the line doesn’t start. Given the global startup timing, how do you start it back up again? It doesn’t start until the last plant gets started making parts.
Notice how many partisan flags are present in the drone video… a couple. This was a non partisan protest. Next one will be 10 times larger, count on it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6e7DXa12rQA
There is no reason why any country other than China should be trying to cope with this virus.I very much doubt whether that could have been the case. As Chris has mentioned many times, this is a very tricky virus. If they'd caught the very first case and quarantined him or her then maybe. But anything else is just wishful thinking.
I am not a “WHO apologist”. I wrote, “There is plenty of blame to go around — China, the WHO, and the US Federal Gov’t…” So I included the WHO among those deserving blame.
I am not a diplomat. So, it is true, I cannot “be specific” about the other ways to put pressure on the WHO. (Guilty as charged.) I did hear an actual diplomat suggest that there are other ways (Madeleine Albright, on CNBC, I believe), and – thinking for myself – I judged her to be credible on that point.
I did not, and do not, say that “either you support the WHO, or you support Trump”. I’ve never said that – not here, nor in any other venue. Ever.
I do think for myself. That’s why I’m a PP member (and a Unitarian Universalist, and…). I do not “buy[] into … framing … provided to [me] by someone”.
I also said, “I’ve been a paying customer for almost a decade now, so clearly I value your input.” I meant that as a compliment. But I was shown the door. That felt like an over-reaction.
There is plenty of blame to go around. The US for not having the supplies, not manufacturing the supplies when they still had plenty of time. ( almost 2.5 mos ) China, not to blame, they do not need to release everything, BUT as you see, there were plenty of studies and reports coming out of there than were all accurate (Chris was privy to that -it was available to all )
Chris and several other mature, responsible , logical people knew what the drill was in late January. We couldnt stop the misinformation band from saying their garbage and censoring out accurate evidence. Michael Furmento ( 30 year writer on pandemic hysteria ) is another one to blame - I reamed him a new ahole. He kinda blew me off…after several strong emails back and forth since january. and was still spewing its nothing more than flu stuff - as of mid march. I wonder where he is now… Especially because I reamed him - for culpability - as he has not biology background to sound like an authority - especially since the idiot moron is a lawyer too… gosh…
So, bottom line- Chinese not to blame. DO blame , the president, the US federal govt, the CDC, Media , media drs… and other writers, google and facebook censorship and the F’n WHO. Chris with a $50 internet connection had all he needed in information… But people who get paid millions, who job is to do nothing but this, were nowhere near to be found… with all their spying , wiretapping, satellite eye in the sky surveillance. And trillions in budget money… They are all criminal against the US citizens are culpable for all the deaths we are seeing now. Its one thing if the deaths are unavoidable… and we did everything we could and should… but to worry about the flu. , censor people like Dr Martenson, while having media drs and correspondents that are monkeys and having authority organizations that are on the take to disseminate lies for whatever agenda… its nothing less than criminal… PERIOD
EDIT: at the end of the day, I actually things its a great thing the way our governors have behaved and handled this. I believe this is the final of the 4th turning… AND i believe after this all is done, people will be ready to do away with the current defunct US government - I think we were at a tipping point before all this started… I think we will beyond it shortly… mostly after the food shortages… My prediction… is really US dollar will be worth less than toilet paper ( even at today’s value ) The US govt will lose so much trust, as will wall street, the banks, and the fed… It will all be pulled in true revolt style… The only question is will that be in the form of violence or a more civil revival of the US constitution… with the individual states leading the way taking care of their own… and the Federal govt falling by the wayside along with its enormous military expenditure and world governing… Ultimately this will have severe repercussions for energy… after food… even though oil is abundant now… if the US govt and dollar crashes - our ability to leverage the oil markets goes to zero over-night.
I am not sure what they are worried about. In fact I believe they have no authority to do so… Years ago , may still exist , NJ would revolk MD license form any dr treating Candidiasis with antifungals. Which is crazy. If the drug is FDA approved… A dr should be able to prescibe it … There are may drugs used off label… Meaning for diseases other than originally designed. Because through empirical drs discover other benefits… hey remember monoxidil? Drs should have the liberty to be drs… and use a drug if available… period. trust me they are not interested in killing their patients.
HQC is used to treat arthritis and lupus , both disabling but neither fatal… If its safe enough to treat people with non-fatal illness, it should be safe enough to treat people with potentially fatal illness. RISK/REWARD/… this one is an easy no brainer.
I do not understand this fuzz. I never subscribed for YouTube so they cannot unsubscribe me. When I open Microsoft Edge I will get a “notofication” every time PP has a new video or new daily news. I do not use ridiculous expensive Apple goodies, or riduculous simple Android children shit. Just Microsoft as I do since MSdos 3.1.
In my view Apple and Google are the most dangerous companies to the free wor(l)d and everybodies privacy. Besides as much as possible money they mostly love the power. Microsoft only wants to sell software for a reasonable price.
I have a 160USD minix computer, then installed WinPro 10 for 22 USD, then connected it with HDMI cable to my huge TV 50" screen and presto, I have a fine setting for the price that Apple would charge for only a mouse.
Then I wonder why everybody loves Apple and hates Microsoft. Amazing
The world created the WHO
Then all the world agreed to follow the lead of the WHO in case of an outbreak. It is called a “protocol”. Governments love protocols, they follow it and nobody is to blame. Well WHO gave bad recomandations and even didnot follow their own protocols. As all big institions it will get “politiced” from day 1. Leadership and nice jobs are available to distributed to, often, failed leaders. They are “promoted” to a place outside the view of where they failed.
As in Holland, after an elected person failes to get re-elected or even fails to do his job, he will get a nice job in Brussels, some NATO, UN or whatever place, or the King will appoint him to be mayor or governor for live. It is a big shame, and it is showing the failure of our democracy. Governments only think in the interest of themself and not the people they suppose to “serve”
The uprise of totally new outsiders like Trump, or movements as we see now in Europe (they are called “far-right” but this is a BS defence of the burocracy) are ONLY the reaction of the people on the failure of burocracy. In the past it delivered guys as Napoleon and Hitler. I hope in the future they will only function to reset the thinking of the ruling burocracy.
Whatever, please do not let left/right discussions rule your world nor this PP place. It is a lost discussion from the start because it has nothing to do with left nor right and as Chris mentioned, it is only loss of time, better use it for more constructive effords.
Printing money leading to hyper inflation? Maybe not at all. Hyper inflation will only start after people loose confidence in it. Well, give the people just enough to live and they will keep believing the system. Money is scarce to most (almost all) people, no matter how much is printed. Trillions fish in the sea and if you’re hungry your happy to have a 20 fish bill in your hand.
I looked at the statistics - it is true. Post-soviet countries have completely different situation. We don’t have pandemic here. We even would not notice this if WHO would not declare pandemic and our countries would not go to lock-down… I don’t know the reason but it’s true… Statistics here.
alan-
I think the issue is one of blame vs consequence.
Blame is something that makes the one placing the blame feel less stress, but no actual behavior is altered.
Consequence is serious pain inflicted on a person or organization that provides an opportunity for reflection. No change occurs without consequence. That’s just the condition of life on planet Earth.
Recessions usually provide consequences for bad business leaders. Rubbing nose in poop does this for pooping dogs. Eating losses does this for greedy investors.
2008: “Bad banksters! (Here’s a bailout).” Blame. No behavior was changed.
2008: “No bailouts.” Bankruptcy. Consequence. Learning takes place, behaviors change. Maybe: no more credit default swaps, just as a starter.
In your model, you would have us use diplomacy (i.e. “blame”) on the WHO, and you would then sit back and expect them to change. Dog poops on the rug. You use diplomacy - you shake your finger and say, “bad dog”. Will the dog change behavior?
To cause change, you need to provide an undesirable consequence, and you need to link that consequence directly to the bad behavior. The worse the behavior, the more severe the consequence must be.
FWIW, I think the reaction you got from Chris is the result of a decade of seeing only blame, and no consequence. He is…frustrated by this pattern of behavior from our “leadership.” Anyone who has had a dog knows this doesn’t work. And yet…we see this again, and again, and again…
Will it ever be time for Consequence?
Reading through, early this morning, I’m struck by how the left-right politics of contemporary American mass media, social media, and pop culture is rearing its (rather ugly) head in the PP community.
I recall when I first started reading PP’s public side mid-last year my initial perception was that it leaned to the Left. I mean, just the implication of the name - that prosperity could peak, rather than continue growing endlessly - is as “leftist” a concept as peak oil, in the popular imagining of the Red Team v. Blue Team dichotomy. So my question as I started reading PP was just how far Left the site tilted.
I came at it from a (categorically) Right-leaning perspective. That’s because I lean strongly toward true free markets, and I value the Constitution as written because it is about as close to a federal level anarchy as can be structured, devolving the vast bulk of power to the state and local levels where it is more easily kept accountable to people.
But this is the same concept as the “localism” many who self-identify as falling on the Left pursue - and it was my realization of that some years ago that started moving me away from Red v. Blue political and economic power analyses to Local v. Distant. Also, I’m a lifelong advocate for organic and (what I’ll risk controversy calling) “real conservationism” (distinct from hysterical). I’m a charter member of the Real Organic Project, a response of mostly-left leaning small scale farmers, consumers, and advocates to last year’s collapse of the longstanding organic standards of the USDA’s National Organic Program and its now corporate-controlled National Organic Standards Board.
Increasingly, I’ve discovered that my actual commitments and concerns don’t neatly fit into the Red v. Blue dichotomy our cultural conversation demands. Both sides are becoming increasingly intolerant - totalitarian in the sense of totality; insisting one must accept the whole “party line” to be a party member in good standing, and insisting that either varying from or opposing the party line at any point makes one an existential threat who must be forced into compliance or discredited and destroyed. (That’s what’s behind deplatforming, for example, and the ideological application of “fake news” appellations; to labeling opponents as either “nazi” or “communist” - they’re all nothing more than neat ways to avoid having to think critically about differing viewpoints, or about one’s own intellectual commitments.)
Both sides now call me anathema. But, refreshingly, I’ve come to see that Chris and Adam’s website and philosophy don’t lock into the ideology of either team. I don’t agree with all of their espoused views on social, political, economic, or environmental issues. I don’t think I have to in order to like them and the site, or in order to learn from and share with the PP community. Nor do I think any two people can be truly intellectually alive and agree on all points. Where such straitjacketed minds are found, zombies are afoot; Left or Right, they’re political coppertops.
And that’s what’s showing up in this thread as ideologues from the Red and Blue teams are taking issue with Chris’ refusal to properly align either “for” or “against” the current President and his pursuits. If “the Left” hates him, any who hope to be considered in any way “legitimate” or “honest” or “truthful” by left-leaning citizens have to also hate him and everything he’s done or champions. Ideological purity demands that there be zero recognition of good done by a man or party deemed bad.
If “the Right” loves him, no “right thinking” person can take exception to anything he champions, however that varies from day to day. Ideological purity demands that whatever he does be declared “good” regardless of what mental gymnastics are required to make it appear so. There can be no acknowledgement of anything bad done by a man or party deemed good.
Both sides are increasingly adopting the “1984” dictum that 2+2=5 if the Party says it does.
That’s nuts! People are neither all one thing nor the other. Even “bad” people do good things, while even “good” people do bad things. Good and Bad are not absolute attributes of individual human beings. We are all doing our best to do what we think is “right” and “good” according to our understanding, experiences, current circumstances (needs, fears, opportunities, failures, accomplishments), and human commitments - and the distilled wisdom that comes from all of that; wisdom that is not fixed or final, but only ever transitional and penultimate.
If a person cannot find anything to praise in the actions, values, or commitments of a person, organization, movement, or philosophy with which s/he disagrees, that person is a prisoner of ideology.
If a person cannot find anything to criticize in the actions, values, or commitments of a person, organization, movement, or philosophy with which s/he agrees, that person is a prisoner of ideology.
I see prisoners here, this morning.
Chris mentioned that his sister saw neighbourhood kids playing outside together in California.