I must agree with Granny and Yagasjai. I know there is a whole lot to do in this crisis to keep ourselves safe and prepare for an uncertain future. Keeping busy can help keep our mind out of dark places.
With that said, though, intense times like this create lots of stress and lots of emotions. We can only stuff them so long before they come back to bite us and get in the way of us doing all of those things that need to be done. In this case, we also can lose sight of what’s important and perhaps even miss an important change in the big picture that calls for a change of course. We can also miss the opportunities that crisis always presents - often opportunities to create a future where we don’t shoot ourselves in the foot by creating conditions that invite crises.
To go farther, some mentors of mine whom I greatly respect say that the reason our society is so hellbent on accumulating more stuff at the expense of both real connection, our own future, and the global ecosystem is that we all live in a state of unresolved grief - grief from separation from nature, separation from each other, even separation from our own inner life. If this is true, the most graceful way through this predicament we find ourselves in as humans today is in part defined by slowing down and doing our own inner work.
@Chris,
Can you please link to the study with the following (or mention the minute mark in which you discuss the following)? Thank you.
Research is showing that the recommended social distance of two meters (6.8 feet) is inadequate to protect against airborne particles. Four times that amount is more likely — reinforcing the effectiveness of both social isolating tactics (like sheltering at home) and wearing masks.
Hi Missy, Chris had said on a video: put used mask, of any kind (N95 or surgical) in a clean paper bag (lunch bag?) and heat in preheated oven, set at at 173 F for 30 min. Most ovens don’t go as low as 173, so if you set it at 200, open the door a few moments & then put mask in, turning oven off & on about every 5-10 min, you should be ok. My only concern would be if you have the N95, with an exhaust valve (my preference), they are made of plastic, so I would not want the oven to get too hot. If you have an oven thermometer, used for cooking, already in oven, that may be helpful… If not, you could probably use the infra red thermometers, many folks have. I hope this helps. And you are correct. It is A LOT of info. Whew!
Take care,
Pat
Yes Ezixq1949, Australians will pay dearly for this well orchestrated misinformation campaign about masks.
I get challenged regularly for wearing a bandana in public (to protect them). I tell people it’s a fashion statement.
This is a problem which needs to be solved from the bottom up here, so I’ve been inspired by the Czech example to sew and give away masks. Do join me in subverting the dominant paradigm.
Just don't cough, sneeze or breathe heavily near me.https://mobile.twitter.com/WHO/status/1243972193169616898
Thank you so much, Pat. I had not watched the video first! That’ll teach me. Take care, yourself!
M
The number of reported cases to achieve herd immunity depends on the testing strategy and on whether having had it does result in immunity. I mention the latter condition because there have been reports of reinfections.
Thank you for the correction drbrucedale. The worst case scenario for global CFR (3.4%) would be about 265 million souls, or 5 times the estimated toll of the 1918 pandemic.
The verification of the Columbia University data on the China experience of an 86% transmission rate by unreported and perhaps asymptomatic carriers appears to be reflected in global data. I would suggest from my analysis that an ultimate 3.4% CFR also appears to be a good number.
So we are assuming almost all have the active virus? Also, have there been tests for these masks that analyze a cough or sneeze to determine how many larger particles get thru the valve instead of being trapped on the interior of the fabric?
Granny, Yagasjai, and Quercus bicolor,
I also agree with the value and power of vulnerability, and I wanted to add some additional information about Brene Brown. Besides her audiobooks and physical books, she has done TED talks and I’ve seen her on YouTube as well (although it’s been awhile but she should still be there). From her wiki:
“…The Gifts of Imperfection, Daring Greatly, Rising Strong, Braving the Wilderness, and Dare to Lead. She also hosts the Unlocking Us podcast and her TED talk is one of the top five most viewed TED Talks in the world. Her filmed lecture, Brené Brown: The Call to Courage, debuted on Netflix in 2019…”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bren%C3%A9_Brown
I wanted to also mention Chellis Glendinning and her book “My Name Is Chellis and I’m in Recovery from Western Civilization” (which I have). For me, it’s the best book I’ve read about the trauma of separating ourselves from nature, and ourselves as a result. I had an incredible amount of ah-ha’s when I read it, as well as my eyes would tear up spontaneously as I read the book.
Other authors Carolyn Baker, Charles Einstein, and Derrick Jensen too (but he can be a bit radical for a lot of people…) have also written about this topic and other parts of the huge jigsaw puzzle called our civilization, society, and culture. Besides James Howard Kunstler, John Michael Greer, and Richard Heinberg who I have mentioned in previous posts and the authors in this post, there are many others…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chellis_Glendinning
I have several of Carolyn’s books, “Collapsing Consciously: Transformative Truths for Turbulent Times”, “Navigating the Coming Chaos: A Handbook for Inner Transition”, and “Sacred Demise: Walking the Spiritual Path of Industrial Civilization’s Collapse”.
https://carolynbaker.net/books/
John Michael Greer has also written quite a few books. Here’s some of the titles he’s written under the category of economics and political change.
- The Long Descent: A User's Guide to the End of the Industrial Age (New Society Publishers, September 2008)
- The Ecotechnic Future: Envisioning a Post-Peak World (New Society Publishers, October 2009)
- The Wealth of Nature: Economics As If Survival Mattered (New Society Publishers, May 2011) ISBN 978-0-86571-673-5
- Green Wizardry (New Society, 2013)
- Not the Future we Ordered: Peak Oil, Psychology and the Myth of Progress (Karnac, 2013)
- Decline and Fall: the End of Empire and the Future of Democracy in the 21st Century (New Society, 2014)
- Collapse Now and Avoid the Rush: the Best of the Archdruid Report (Founders House, 2015)
- After Progress: Reason and Religion at the End of the Industrial Age Paperback (New Society Publishers, April 2015)
- Dark Age America: Climate Change, Cultural Collapse, and the Hard Future Ahead (New Society Publishers, September 2016)
- The Retro Future: Looking to the Past to Remake the Future (New Society, 2017)
Nordic-man
You are on to something here.
As Dtrammel points out we need something more than 60 degrees C to sterilize masks in a reasonable time.
(he pointed out that:
“1) SARS virus was killed in 90 minutes at 56C/132.8F
2) SARS virus was killed in 60 minutes at 67C/152.6F
3) SARS virus was killed in 30 minutes at 75C/167F”
Some baby bottle sterilizers can be set to 70 or even 80 degrees C for a programmed time (60 minutes at 70 degrees or 30 minutes at 80 degrees). These use moist air (not necessarily steam) to transfer heat from a water bath so I would not expect mask deterioration at 70 or 80 deg C in a bottle “sterilizer.”
Kunga
- Copper, silver and gold all work to destroy bacteria and viruses on contact via a similar property (they are in the same column of the periodic chart and their outer electron configurations are similar).
- Because it is so cheap, copper (usually as copper sulfate) and not silver or gold salt is used to kill algae in ponds, used to kill bacteria in swimming pools and used to pressure treat wood to make it mold resistant.
- It is the ionic form (salt form in solution) which is active and works by ripping off electrons from things like proteins, and denatures them. Colloidal (metal) form does NOT do this, but instead is convenient to add to goops and gels which under the right conditions slowly dissolves into the ionic form (which does the denaturation/killing) and make great bandages and creams for burn victims etc.
- All heavy metals (cadmium, lead etc.) have this destructive property. If you add a lead salt to a protein solution in a test tube, the protein scrambles and you can see it precipitate- I used to teach this in my biochemistry lab when I was a college teacher. But the weaker acting silver/copper/gold are less toxic and their weaker effects more easily blocked by the reducing environment within a complex cell. The reason why silver/copper/gold are preferred is because their destructive effects are prevented/reversed by sulfhydral reducing agents such as glutathione, which are abundant inside animal cells, including the complex cells of your body. This allows discrimination between human cells (scrambling of proteins-often by messing with cystine cross bridges is prevented by glutatione) and bacteria/viruses, which are not protected by glutatione.
There is an amazing amount of misinformation on this topic infecting the internet. Most people really dont want to learn or understand the science or hear this kind of explanation. I am learning much by discussing science details with people like Dtrammel AO and Sandpuppy here.
Thanks for the information filled post. I found that if I screen shot which post of Chris’s and then a post to refer back to I will be able to find it again. Lol. Always looking for new podcasts and now audio books. I will check out a few I am not familiar with. Chris has had some as guests in the past like Carolyn Baker, Richard Heinberg and John Michael Greer. Just search and you will be able to listen to them.
Great resources, thanks a bunch!
AKGrannyWGrit
I really appreciate the commentary on the importance of feeling our emotions during this crazy time. Quercus, you mentioned grief, which is important. I want to add anger to the list. Most of us have very compromised relationships with anger because we often associate feeling anger with behaving violently. Those are two separate things. When we can sit with our anger and name the protest inside, e.g. I’m angry that this virus is here and I don’t like quarantining, then we are acknowledging what’s true for us. When I acknowledge my anger, I free up that life force for important things like how to best respond. When I pretend it’s not there, stuff it etc, I harm my physical body because it takes literal contraction to contain that energy and the anger leaks out sideways anyways when we snap at our beloveds etc. Here’s a brief piece I wrote about this on my blog. In my opinion it’s totally natural for big feelings to arise when our whole way of life gets tipped on its head even if we have been prepping for years. By feeling our feelings we increase our capacity to tolerate the uncertainty of what’s happening and stay connected to the people who matter to us most right now.
https://globalnews.ca/news/6752238/coronavirus-used-masks-in-interior-health-to-be-sterilized-stored-as-emergency-backup/
New use for ovens of closed restaurants?!?
At the bottom of the landing page you have “Recommended 3E Sites”. It would be beneficial to have links to resources such as Suzi’s and maybe Carolyn Bakers etc…I suggest asking Suzi or Linda for recommendations
This is an update that would provide needed benefits during this crisis. After all people don’t prosper if they are crazy??
Perhaps members could provide recommendations? Might want to delegate?
Helping Granny
First, here is a fabulous TED talk about Emotional Agility - some of you may be familiar with her book of the same title: https://www.ted.com/talks/susan_david_the_gift_and_power_of_emotional_courage
I am dealing with a serious family conflict because of this. As many of you long time members know it is incredibly difficult to talk to the slow/non adjusters about serious things, especially those that we love and care about. While it is one thing to have one’s knowledge and beliefs dismissed when the good times are rolling, it is much, much harder in situations like this where not paying attention can be a life and death matter.
I bigly flubbed an interaction with my dear sister last week, triggered by her saying “never gonna happen” re wearing a mask. We are not talking 
A niece laughed saying “no way” when I sent her a pic of a fashionable mask and asking if she was into the new trend.
It is incredibly difficult to watch people you love having slow or not existent adjustments to this crisis, knowing that such simple measures will make a big difference. I am certain this is playing out across all communities…
Sometimes there is nothing but feelings of resignation and it will play out however it plays out. People are going to stick with their belief systems no matter what evidence is presented. To that end all we can do is deal with our own responses to their rejections. Far easier said than done when they are people you love - for me anyway!
This is and will continue to test us big time, for a long time. I know many here are well prepared physically. I think as Granny has indicated in her overture re feelings that it is time to also focus on the mental and emotional aspects of how we are dealing with it all. Let’s face it, the deep pantry won’t mean shit if we go to pieces in despair and conflict.
Here is my challenge to the ‘men’ here: let it out and let us in. What are you feeling, and what are you doing for your mental and emotional health? Women too! What helps sustain your collective spirits? Perhaps this is fodder for another forum.
With sincerity,
Jan
Can someone please provide the link for the airborne droplets coming put of your mouth whilst talking? It appears to be Chinese or Korean. Thanks
I would like to officially acknowledge the actual CFR. I have heard testimony and watched numerous videos from doctors on the front line. The numbers are pretty clear. First, they all suggest that the hospitalization rate is 20% , but everyone wants to pretend they are only testing serious cases. - No, or they would not say this. The WHO , CDC, wuhan studies, all are on agreement of this figure now. So, it consensus of officials ( who have been wrong ) but also front-line doctors ( who are probably right ) Again , as Chris says, we have to go on what we have been given. There is a lot of unknowns and a lot of knowns. I would say , that the WHO and CDC take a more conservative approach and deny until proven. So if they finally, state something, my guess is its correct. They are better at denying facts than making incorrect ones. So to that end.,
Do not think , more ventilators or overwhelming the medical system will change the out-come or save lives. I mean it will, but it will really be a much smaller proportion than people think. It is clear, that 30% of the people who enter the hospital will die , no matter what treatment or support is given. And furthermore , 86% of all people ventilated die. So , the vent is just a means to the end. Its not something that will save you if you could get one. That changes my whole understanding and belief how we should go about this course and treatment of disease. I also submit that the small 15% that will survive a vent , will have a life-long disability and impairment. So, the only question now is what do we do? is there something that they are doing in the hospital that can keep some one from going critical? Or are we really just watching people and making them more comfortable, hydration, oxygen? and waiting?
Using the above information of 20% need hospital, 30% of hospitalized die, 5% critical ventilated, 86% die. comes to a very easy CFR of about 5-6%. Of course all populations are different; Different diets, supplements, vaccinations, weights, age, activity, which can affect each populations hospitalization and death rates. But I am going to settle here for this. And I believe , whether hospitalized or not, out-come will not change for more than 75% of those.
With this knowledge, I still would not open the flood gates to the economy. But , I would not burden the medical system. Id leave that to other health issues as it was. I would tell people that we can give you oxygen ( people should be visited at home by medics ) if oxygen is low , to make more comfortable and reduce chance of organ failure while the body immune system responds… If cannot , you parish anyway… no other treatments have been proven. ( unless you are trying to treat secondary stuff - like bacterial pneumonia )
The reason, for my post, is just to come to some sort of standard belief of all the numbers flying and what is real. what can be believed. I feel these are conservative , yet accurate enough to get close to real. We are deep enough into this , that someone has to use what is given , and there is a lot given that is consistent. I am not about to start to entertain that oh, so many are infected that dont know it… I believe the true asymptomatics are really like 1% or less. There is no evidence to the contrary . Also, I would like to add yes , I know of some missed an not counted cases of mild illness and I know also of many deaths that were never recorded. I would think this is a wash and yes we have a lot more of both than reported. I know we have questioned china’s numbers and as Chris said , I agree the actual cases and deaths off by a factor of 10 at least. However, I also said in other posts, that I believe the numbers given to use by the chinese are accurate to reflect the correct ratio, though , its just a subset of total data. Meaning , CFR and severe cases will not change if it were a billion.