It has been my observation, after 45+ years of marriage, that ,in general, men make the really big decisions in this world and women just make the important ones.
The presumption is that "survival of the fittest" is an equivalent term for a meritocracy, it is not. To unpack that properly would take more time than I have now. I would argue there are a number of unconscious assumptions built into that presumption, and it is those very presumptions that have created the crisis of the three "E"s that were are facing today.
The Origin of species was published just over 156 years ago and contained a series of observations that revolutionized thought at the time. A purely "scientific" view point has its attractions, it curbs mans hubris (we are after all the subject of natural law), but at the same time promises a brighter future through rational thought and self mastery, mastery of our surrounding conditions. There is a dark side there as well though which we just now becoming aware of.
History is a constant series of reversals, where an idea, concept or perspective transforms present awareness, only to become the chains of slavery for future generations as it becomes codified into an ossified belief system. Each generation seems to presume that they are at or near the pinnacle of human evolution and until viewed in the rear view mirror of history.
We are again at one of those great reversals where the linear presumptions of our current greatness are being shattered circular nature of reality. But we are not turning on great wheel, doomed to repeat our past mistakes. Reality is multidimensional, and our path more resembles the spirals of our own DNA. After each cycle, we may appear to have returned to the same place we have done so with a transformed perspective. Transformation always comes from the edge as the center collapses in on itself, what we are experiences is both new and old. Beginnings and ends are always contained together, we are at both.
The video of the interview was beyond the limit. Made me forced to think on the topic. Recession will really burn the future. Overall feeling pleased.
Why in the world would "you" assume that race issues might be more intense in Missouri? What a load of east coast superiority bias. Missouri has a very diverse population with very few racially charged issues. The last few years have regrettably highlighted underlying issues between people of different backgrounds, neighborhoods, and racial backgrounds. This is an important issue that needs we should all strive to prevent and I will not blame potential victims for crying wolf, like David Collum did with the sexual assualt issue. (Sidebar: Any one ever thought about men/boys keeping it in their pants? Or slut-shaming men as women have been since the beginning of time? Or asking any woman if she has experienced unwanted sexual advances in her life? Not to mention that the alarmingly high rape statistics cover women's entire lives (not just time in college) and include unwanted sex with partners, even husbands? but I digress… ) Just as causal intimacy on campuses needs a broader conversation, so does racial issues. And there is no reason to believe that Missouri is worse than Connecticut.
Any one ever thought about men/boys keeping it in their pants?The Catholic Church tried that I think.
We must recognise that young men and adolescents are not girls with certain additional features. They are prefrontally challenged, testosterone soaked idiots. I know. I was one.
This is one example of the fact that no two humans are equal by any measure at all. No amount of foot stamping, huffing and puffing is going to change that .
Our Moral foundations should rest on that fact. Any legal system's first imperative has to to be the dispensation of justice. Therefore the Muslims have a point. There is such a thing as provocative dress and behavior. But let us not over emphasize the issue. There was a time when a woman's ankle was considered provocative.
Over time western men been acclimatised to seeing all a woman's bits. It is getting harder and harder for women to get any reaction at all.
Muslim men on the other hand, are on the other extreme. All they can see of a woman is her eyes, and in Afghanistan even those are veiled.
Plonk them amongst our womenfolk and all hell breaks loose. Surprise, surprise. Who would have thunk?
Environmental Phyto estrogens will of cause emasculate all men. (Correction. All male chordata.)
From Arthur:
We must recognise that young men and adolescents are not girls with certain additional features. They are prefrontally challenged, testosterone soaked idiots. I know. I was one.
Therefore the Muslims have a point. There is such a thing as provocative dress and behavior.O M G I am going to just give up right now. It is beyond hopeless cause trying to get men to understand a women's perspective on sexual assault. I have resisted commenting further on this thread, but since my last post, nearly every day in the news headlines I scan daily there have been countless articles about sexual assault, harassment, abuse and so on, the overwhelmingly vast majority perpetrated by men on women.
But I guess it is we women's fault… it is our fault because of what we do or say or wear, or how we act. It is our fault. We provoke. We cause those male hormones to go bonkers causing men to lose all responsibility for their actions. We cause them to lose their ability to embrace the concept called restraint - you know, that thing which relates to humans ability to reason, and is why we are the so called superior species. But obviously for far too many men the nervous system that transmits the restraint signal from brain to penis is not working. Must be that hormonal prefrontal thingy that Arthur seems to be using as an excuse to justify all the inappropriate behaviours men perpetrate.
In reply to pyranablade on post #57:
Hi Jan. I think I appreciated your comment (#51), although you and I will disagree on some things, it was nice of you to ask us commentors to keep this conversation going."You "think" you appreciated my comment? Sorry but that is a little too wishy washy. We will definitely be disagreeing on many things because if you want to stand by disbelief of the stats re rape culture, well that is your prerogative, but from my perspective, the stats understate true reality. I believe it is far greater than what the stats show. I know most men will just not be able to agree with that. My theory is that many men - the good guys who know what restraint is - just cannot even imagine the depths of how much damage others of their gender cause.
And also, it was disappointing that despite my call for more men to comment few did. The disinterest on a topic that is so relevant to so many women is disheartening.
Here is something to think about. I have been sexually abused. Of three sisters, two of us were abused. My sister who was also abused is a totally messed up person. Of my seven closest friends, three have been abused. My cousin was abused and committed suicide last year. I strongly suspect more cousins were abused, but they are not talking. So let's see, for this run of the mill average woman, who is like so many other run of the mill average women in society, out of the circle mentioned above 6 out of 11 have been abused - more than 50%. I have no doubt whatsoever that if I asked for a show of hands of abused women in the office it too would be above 50%. So if one were to extrapolate this to the general population, which I truly do not think is unreasonable, it sort of doubles the quoted stats that you guys are disputing and finding so hard to come to terms with. The level of abuse and harassment is, and remains sickening. The psychological and emotional damage is debilitating. The memories never go away, ever. You cannot undo abuse.
I see no hope whatsoever for finding a happy consensus on this subject. I do not think that men are capable of understanding unless they have been abused themselves. And certainly not when many continue to blame the victims and make it our fault while totally absolving themselves for any lack of restraint. I do have one friend who experienced horrific abuse as a child who uses a rather vulgar saying to try to get her men friends to understand sexual abuse: "try to imagine an unwanted dick up your ass!" Apologies for the vulgarity, but I have to agree with the sentiment. It is the only way to adequately convey the absolute horror of being violated.
Jan
I read your complaint that few men commented, and went to try to find your RFC (request for comments)… I couldn’t identify what it was; eventually I gave up.
I may not be the only one who gave up.
Would you care to specify what it was, for which you wanted comments?
For painting me as a rape apologist.
I have commented that no two humans are of equal value. Making the best of a bad situation, my morally considered opinion is that we should use a large swath of humanity for spare parts.
After all, a thing is defined by it's function, not it's form. Just because it is bi-pedal does not entitle it to call itself my equal.
Having said that I realize that a human is not an object, it is a process. There was a time that I was was a young man too.
Were you ever a young man? How then can you judge their state of being? You are judging young men with a woman's yardstick. The correct people to raise young men are older men.
You womenfolk's efforts to raise boys have been an abject failure. Where are the Real Men defending their womenfolk in Sweden? Triapsing about in tu-tus to the delight of feminists. You want Real Men to defend your right to choose the father of your children? Give the boys to us. If not, you will have to make your own arrangements.
Try making cartoons about acceptable behavior. That is what is being tried in Europe. I kid you not. Cartoons against an invasion. I'm sure they would have terrified Genghis Khan and sent him scurrying back to Mongolia./ sarc
Anyway thank you for your obsession with me.
[quote] the absolute horror of being violated [/quote]
Horror, yes. And let's not forget the major practical fact that sex causes babies. The risks and consequences of "going all the way" are hugely disproportionate between men and women.
Modern birth control methods can change the odds of conception, but they don't negate the fundamental imbalance.
The sanest context for sexual activity is within a committed relationship that has the support of the community and where the man is committed to sticking around to help raise whatever children he sires.
Any man who seeks sexual contact without that commitment is not a lover, he is a user.
Westcoast Jan said:
In reply to pyranablade on post #57:Hi Jan. I think I appreciated your comment (#51), although you and I will disagree on some things, it was nice of you to ask us commentors to keep this conversation going."
You "think" you appreciated my comment? Sorry but that is a little too wishy washy
I read your long comment (#51) putting the best construction on it. It sounded like you were communicating in good faith. But I also knew that you were outraged, or at least a little upset about my earlier comments on this thread.
Here's the thing: when you communicate online there often aren't any non-verbals and those non-verbals are what people really rely on when interpreting the comments of others. I read your comment (#51) thinking it sounded like you were a really nice and well-meaning person that just happened to disagree with me on some points. If so, then I really did appreciate your comment.
Maybe I should make it clearer to all on this thread: Gender issues is a divisive topic. This is not a gender issues blog. You have my sympathies, Jan, for being a victim of abuse. Is it time for all of us to leave it there (at least for now?). I think so. If not, however, I have more material to contribute.
See post #49 paragraph two.
What I would specifically like to know is why AKgranny got ganged up on for a comment that some found offensive and called her sanctimonious garnering about 15 thumbs up when a post like this https://peakprosperity.com/comment/184419#comment-184419 gets a pass with no one calling Arthur on it for racism? I alerted the moderators re this comment but no one responded to me and I am unaware of any action taken. I would imagine if he had said Martenson the Jew then it might have hit the mark…
And then there was this post by Hugh K on the thread for "Forbidden Words and Symbols in the Land of the Free https://peakprosperity.com/comment/186790#comment-186790
What Hugh is alluding to here is the conversation where former member, and my friend, Joyce got blasted and ganged up on by many. When I tried to support her I was take to task by the site administrators. That kerfuffle had a big impact on a lot of members, and resulted in some of us backing off of or leaving the site altogether.
If one were to read all the comments on the Forbidden Words thread, it is rife with racism and discriminatory comments, with Arthur being the main contributor in that regard. I am not sure if it was this thread or not but I called him on one of his posts and told him to "give it a rest" which I seem to recall garnered about 15 thumbs up. Recently Arthur sent me a PM which said "so what is wrong with racism?" I did not and will not respond to him, especially given that I am deaf and experience all kinds of discriminatory behaviours on a regular basis. My only intolerance is of people who are intolerant.
So, once again, it is not my intent to hurt this site by bringing up old battles. But I sincerely want to know why no one is holding Arthur accountable, why people are quick to gang up on some women posters for things that I perceive as being pretty minor in comparison to some of the stuff Arthur has been spewing out? Why are their double standards and different bars of acceptability for different posters?
This site used to pretty good at self policing. Heck I used to hold people accountable sometimes. I value so many of you - smart people, brilliant thinkers and writers from whom I have learned much. I also have learned how to debate better, trying to attack the point and not the person. This whole racism thing is a different ball of wax though. I certainly believe in freedom of speech and anyone's right to express themselves. If I do not like it I can just not read it, or block them. But there have been too many instances that I think are over the line and have gone unchecked, and that is not sitting well with me.
I do not know where this leaves us other than saying I think that each of us has a responsibility to conduct ourselves with integrity. There is no integrity in racism or any other discriminatory behaviours. We here are a close community. Some people need to remember that…
And Arthur, don't flatter yourself LOL
Jan
Twice now I,be come here thinking…well…3 E's or something
i cent tripe on this I pad
But oh my, I am sooo tempted to get back into the fray.
I've been absent for some time so I can only speak to this particular thread.
I don't see Arthur as looking to excuse heinous behavior, but he is offering up reasons that illuminate why young men are aggressive sh!theads. And IMO he's not off the mark: young men's prefrontal cortexes are not done getting wired up (meaning they lack the ability to forecast the outcomes of their actions) and they are basically suffering from testosterone poisoning. Which makes you an insane version of your real self.
I was a mild-mannered "good kid". A nerd. A churched-up nerd who sang in the choir and so forth. Then I hit puberty. I was still the "good kid"…but inside I was a slobbering dingbat of lust and desire and impulse and urge. It was like some outside force had hijacked "nice kid" me.
Happily, I had phalanxes of knowing adults all around me helping me channel my ridiculous oversupply of urges into other activities. (Swim team, biking 5 miles up and down hills to/from school, home chores, after-school job, church chores, etc. etc. etc.) My culture kept me clear, guided me, corralled me.
There is NO EXCUSE for sexual harassment, or rape. And I believe you when you say 50% is a better number for the occurrence of such in our culture (as compared to 20%).
Whatever anybody feels about Arthur, I don't think his recent post in this thread is so off base. Young men, torn from their customary social context, exposed to a liberated culture…will act badly.
Like I said, there's no EXCUSING it. But we must EXPECT it. Plan for it. PROTECT those that will be exposed to the idiot rapacious urge that is the unguided young male.
I'm probably stepping out into dangerous territory here, and I normally avoid such. Life is too short to spend it battling stuff out on the internet (I have like three other full-time jobs I'm busy with). But I wanted to speak to this because I believe none of what we hash out here at PP matters if men and women don't rise together in the creation of the new world (to follow the slow messy death of the current one)…
I hope I've helped by posting this. I have no idea if it will.
VIVA – Sager
It seems like a long time ago that this thread started and I will endeavor to explain the point I am trying to make without a lot of emotion. At the beginning of the thread I was the only woman participating in a thread about rape. Then one post started out “Granny” First I fault you for………. A list of my perceived character flaws followed and I was criticized and faulted. You see this is called Public Shaming. Now the expert on shaming, Dr. Brene Brown teaches that shaming has two narratives, the 1st says “you are not worthy” and the 2nd narrative says “who the hell do you think you are?” The message to me was I am not worthy to post, my posts are wrong and inconsequential and I am not welcome. This was followed up with sixteen (16) thumbs up. Not in support of me but rather the person who was shaming me. This could be translated into 16 middle fingers saying we don’t want you here either. You see what shaming does is to cut the ties of relationships and the message that I was not welcome was received loud and clear. This site is designed with an “IGNORE” button and it should be used when someone who posts offends you. Calling names is not okay! That’s not sanctimonious, go to any kindergarten classroom and you will quickly find out that hitting, calling names and bullying are not okay. So let me be clear, I paid for my membership just like you and ganging up on me to drive me off the site is… not very nice.
Being ever more articulate than I and a good friend, Jan contributed to the thread and tried to add balance and perspective. She also suggested that others have made racist comments but were not targeted like I was. Valid observations though not welcomed it seems. Now I don’t believe that anyone acted with intentional malice or cruelty in this thread. Anger perhaps. Rather I realize my posts are imperfect, clumsy, and sometimes ill-thought out, low-and-behold, - it appears so are other peoples. Golly Gee Whiz, I am not the only imperfect person to post on this site! I am not making accusations here only describing a situation from my perspective so no need for angry and hostile rebuttals.
Here is my point. Shame is pervasive; many a political career has been ruined due to shaming. It leads to drinking, drugs and suicide and tragedies like Columbine. Shame is a tool used with expert precision to hijack a narrative, shut people up, drive them away, establish blame and gain and keep power. It’s learned, it’s often a habit and people use shame without realizing the consequences or even have an awareness of their action. Shame is the elephant in the room and no one talks about it but everyone is affected by it. And Robbie, this is for you. As the three “E”’s deteriorate in our country shaming in all of its forms and consequences will grow. People will feel shame for not being able to provide for their families. Ever so many people will not understand exactly why their world is changing but will feel shame and heap piles and piles of it on those they love. As Dr. Brown teaches us shame destroys relationships the ties that connect us to other people and our own self worth. Dr. Brown says put shame in a Petri dish and feed it with silence, secrecy and judgment and it will grow. But, if you bathe shame with empathy it cannot survive. My sincere hope is that if this subject helps even one person then my post and perspective will have made a difference. See what happens, try and give Granny a royal ass chewing and I turn it into a discussion on the detriments of shame. Didn't see that coming did you?
And so my friends I am not being a moral arbiter here I am sharing a perspective that not one of you saw. So instead of being comfortable with the group think that tends to be the norm here I would suggest that people like myself and Jan who see the world so very differently just might have a valuable and pertinent insight now and then. My self-worth is not determined by people who don’t know me, have never met me and are so easily willing to hurt me. My husband says 17 to 1 and the odds are still in my favor, ha-ha you can see where I get my emotional cup filled. So you have not succeeded in driving me away. But at the same time I tend to believe in the sage advice that goes like this:
“Do not give what is holy to dogs, nor cast your pearls before swine or they will trample them under their feet and turn and tear you to pieces.” A warning given to me by someone I trust.
Now I leave you with a quote, complements of Dr. Brown who so aptly reminds us of which critics we should listen to. I see myself in the quote, how about you?
“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong person stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man or woman who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory or defeat. Theodore Roosevelt
AK GrannyWGrit
It is not me who is on trial here. It is Cultural Marxism.
Cultural Marxists accuse anyone who disagrees with them bad or mad. They do not debate big ideas. They name and shame. Just like their cousins Real Marxists. Cultural Marxists are Evil who like to dress up as Angels. And boy, are they quick to name and shame.
Someone is trying to shame ME for being a Racist. And no, Racism is not hate speech. Racism is pride in the achievements of one's Race.
It is a pity that Jan cannot hear for she would gain insight into the roots and objectives of Cultural Marxism.
Anyway, thank you for giving me the opportunity to sink my fangs into Cultural Marxism.
This website is NOT very good at self policing. I really have to disagree with you there. As a result, I stay away from discussions like "Forbidden symbols"; I come for the things I find useful, and just avoid some of the really bad stuff Arthur posts.
And I DO agree that it is bad, and it is racist. I think that some of what he has been through has damaged him, just as what you and your family's women have been through, has damaged you all. Yes, you too. I don't know if you're aware of it or not, but I don't think one can go through that without damage. I too have taken damage, but with other incidents. I will speak of those some time, but while I travel through a dark tunnel, it's hard for me to speak of that tunnel.
But the behavior I see in my mother-in-law's chicken coop is much like the behavior I see here, including pecking orders. There is a reason that some of the chickens lack feathers over broad swaths of their body.
I, too, have been ganged up on here, at least on the truther 9-11 discussion: Although I actually think it likely our government was involved, I am not a Truther; my engineer's training makes me see normal structural failures in what happened there. My simply stating that opinion, and the engineering principles that make me think that, brought out the worst in people. I just left it alone, once I had stated my point. As an engineer, I have nothing more to add, once I give the scientific/engineering/mathematical principles. But in taking my position, I had people excoriating me as a terrible engineer – HOW COULD THEY KNOW SUCH A THING? Truth is, they can't, any more than I could call you a terrible (doctor? actress? mother? I have no idea what you are, but even if I did, how could I know your job performance from across the web?)
So I really have no answer to how the policing goes on here. It is Chris' website, and he can do what he wants with it. If I find some aspects useful, that is very good, and I may come around. Some areas, I stay away from. I try to judge people with charity – including Arthur – and find what value I can, while still speaking against the evil and the racism.
Look back, and you will see I have done so. If I do not keep on with it, well… I expect people to take me seriously the first time I speak – and I fire my best shots first. If they do not, I do not expect them to take me seriously the 2543rd time I speak, when I have but drivel left to add.
Jan, we are all subject to groupthink. I think Chris would like to avoid it, but we do it nonetheless. And when one of us disagrees with the group on one topic or another, the group disciplines the lone wolf.
It shouldn't be, and it will have bad consequences for the group.
But it is.
Regarding your personal experiences, I am sorry that they happened. I don't have any answers… it's really bad.
---- Now, an aside:
On the subject of dress, can I ask you what you think about this article? I am not Jewish, but I am fascinated with their theology and logic. So I read the chabad posts many weeks.
It is not about me Michael. It is about the collapse of my civilization. Remember it collapses from to periphery. I was born on the very frontiers. I here to tell you you had better find your own now.
Abandon this multi-culti experiment, it is a lethal ideal of a bygone age.
Look at what the Dutch men consider to be appropriate behavior in response to the rape of their women.
Dutch men put on mini-skirts to support victims of sex attacks
https://www.rt.com/news/329221-netherlands-mini-skirts-rally/
My goodness, that will certainly scare the rapists away.
Now be a good chap and try to play the ball and not the man.
Hi all, and once again with apologies for the high-jacking of David Collum's article, but we are here now so we might as well try to finish this off.
Arthur, I am not trying to paint you as a racist - you have done that all by yourself in the last year or so. I am merely pointing out the obvious and asking why it has gone unchecked. For the record, I like you. Historically your posts have been at times fun, quirky and at times smacking of genius, so much so that half the time I never could figure out what the heck you were talking about. But something must have happened to change things for you and I interpret some of your posts as lashing out.
I would like to give you some perspective on why I have chosen to engage everyone on both the racism and sexual assault side of this conversation. Part of my day job is advocating for the rights of the disabled in the workplace. In spite of our Charter of Rights and Constitutions there remains considerable discrimination, un-employment and under-employment for this cohort. Much of the discrimination is inadvertent, a result of people not knowing any better. It has been rare for me to experience intentional discrimination, but it has happened, and it was devastating. There remains one considerable barrier to making progress in this area: the silence of the majority, and unwillingness of people to call out others when they see discrimination, however inadvertent it may be, happening.
I have long harboured much anger about how "my people" - the disabled community - have been treated., much in the same way you are passionate about what has happened to "your people". But in trying to advocate for our rights I have had to learn one lesson the hard way, many times over: one needs to explain their anger, not express it. I have pissed off many people along the way with my anger. It has taken maturity and experience to allow me to become more effective at being an advocate. I am finally in a place where I feel like I can indeed make a difference.
Racism, bigotry, sexual assault and sexual harrassment are enabled by silence. When no one speaks up to say anything they are enabling the behaviour to continue. When no one holds people accountable for bad behaviours society suffers for it, and at times, pays an awful price - something we are seeing all the time in the media these days with violent acts for whatever reason becoming more the norm.
When you make a statement like "Kunstler the Jew" you are making a racist statement. I take offence and exception to things like that, whether it comes from you or anyone else. I am not Jewish, or of any other organized religion. What I am is a human being who has one too many scars from experiencing discrimination and who is not willing to let things slide any longer.
Sager and Michael, thanks for your great comments. I can see that you and some other men like Sand Puppy are trying really hard to be empathetic and understanding to we women's point of view re sexual assault. Your support is appreciated. Here is the thing though: I can easily understand that puberty age young men have great difficulty controlling their urges with not yet fully developed brains. I can live with that. But this only covers one segment of the issue. What about all the other more mature men? The priests, the hockey or other sport coaches, the boy & girl scout leaders, teachers, and multitude of other predators. What about those in positions of power, the Bill Cosby's, the politicians, the business men - who abuse by sexual power games and harassment using work rewards to coerce or threats to punish? What about all the funny uncles and grandpa's who like to play doctor? What about the doctors themselves? I could go on… it is IMHO both endemic and epidemic. It is a result of a breakdown in society where there are not enough families like Sager's, who saw fit to over see him and help guide him to adulthood. Where is the parental & familial oversight, the community oversight?
It is not there because staying silent is easier. Doing nothing is easier. Saying something might cause problems we do not want to have to deal with. Silence is everywhere. It has enabled a corrupt banking system for which we are all paying the price. It has enabled a corrupt political system, economic system, health care system and educational system. It has enabled a society that is unwilling to hold people accountable. It has enabled those who engage in racist, bigoted and discriminatory behaviours to do what they do without consequences.
I have spoken up because my emotional and psychological scars will no longer allow me to stay silent. I will not sit on the sidelines and be an enabler of bad behaviours. On the contrary, I am working hard to eradicate them. The more people who decide not to be enablers the more chance we have of making progress. I will never be so naive as to think that we can totally get rid of discrimination and racism. There will always be those who no matter what we say or do they will not change. For these people, I will let legislation and the justice system take care of them - providing the are not being sheltered by a wall of silence.
Arthur, I am offering an olive branch and hope that you see this a friends way of saying what you have been writing is not acceptable to me. I hope that you can see that for what it is worth.
Jan
Many thoughts here, I too am uneasy how some discussions have been starting to turn (is it me or has the 'vibe' changed in the last 6 months on PP?). The respect and acceptance for 'differing' viewpoints seems to have reduced, emotions seem to take over. We seem at times to fall into calling things black or white, while life is always in shades of grey, and these shades depend from person to person. We're all different, with different experiences, insights and (hidden) luggage. I have not followed the entire communication closely, but I'm sorry that AKGranny feels attacked/ ganged upon, I think there should be a respect for others viewpoints whether we accept these or not. If we don't agree, let's discuss in a positive and constructive way, not exclude or attack (indirectly). While we are different we seem to have common views and starting points, so let's build on these.
AKGranny, I want to hear from you! I want to hear from anyone who brings depth to the discussion (I'm not interested in 'soundbites' that fill other online fora). Challenge my viewpoints, I'm here to learn, not to have my views confirmed. I like to think that we at PP are some form of community, and community is also about listening to other viewpoints, and accepting that they may be valid (I'm not talking about the monster of political correctness, but of listening to what the person has to say and trying to see from their perspective). We can agree to disagree, but let's do so with respect. And even though I don't agree with some of the things Arthur brings forward, or the way it is brought forward, I want to hear from Arthur too. I have had countless insights from Arthurs posts too in the past, and I share (though probably less extreme) some of his worries. To build on that, could it be that one of Arthurs points is encompassed in this piece on RT https://www.rt.com/op-edge/329241-europes-tragedy-merkel-immigration/? I think a 'strong' society is defined by a strong culture, and in the West we seem to have lost this 'culture' to some form of individualism, everyone is the same, only I count, I can pay it so 'I'm worth it' mentality. We seem to have lost our bearings, and I think that the West is at a cultural cross-road. I too believe that the multi-culturalist experiment has derailed. I'm proud of the cultural heritage of Europe. There are many issues in traditional European culture, but so are there in all other cultures. It is part of the system. I'm afraid that multi-culturalism will just maintain many of the problematic issues of the blend of the traditional cultures, and that we will lose the good parts of the individual cultures that make up the multi-cultural society… The challenge now is how to turn this predicament (that is just building further) into something that will be manageable and positive…