Man, I sure do pity people caught up in retail level politics. Looks awful.
Nothing makes sense, you have to overlook ghastly things in your preferred party to demonize the other (with the exact same antics) and, worst of all, you have to forget stuff that happened literally last week in order to ingest today's talking points.
In other words, its a place of enforced low integrity. You have to abandon logic, reason, and consistency in order to play ball with one side or the other.
I must say I’ve been watching this thread with fascination at how (IMHO), numerous long-time members (and some newcomers) have gotten caught up in retail level politics and the forces that are working, consciously or unconsciously to deepen the divide. What follows is my best assessment and opinion, but here is what I think I’ve seen:
Baseless accusations, that while not out of the question, clearly have at most scant circumstantial evidence supporting them (troll and esp. paid troll accusations).
Lecturing others from a perspective of superiority.
Not responding to counter claims and instead choosing to change the subject to one's personal claims or attacking the messenger.
cherry picking evidence to support one's perspective.
I know it's tempting and gets more ingrained the deeper we go. I've done it myself plenty of times, including quite recently. I also see, in my opinion, truth in both sides of the argument - and - a larger truth that is outside the box defined by this divisive thinking.
I've only watched the first 12 and a half minutes of this video so far, but I've found it very helpful in giving perspective about what is going on. I urge everyone to try to hold their own beliefs and ideas about what the problem is and how to fix it a bit more loosely and to focus on trying to understand those you've been butting heads with rather than trying to argue them down. I think that more dialog and less arguing, even if it's insufficient to stop the wave of what is washing over our collective consciousness right now, can help to create pockets of understanding and places where the real work of both rebuilding and protecting what is being built from the storm can start in earnest even before the wave has hit the high water mark on the beach and washed back out to sea.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v5RiMdSqwk&t=2683s&app=desktop
"If there are whole chunks of populations that you only have pejorative strawman versions of, where you can't explain why they think what they think without making them dumb or bad, you should be dubious of your own modeling."- Daniel Schmachtenberger
That's very politely stated. :)
I truly like how he thinks and speaks. I also believe that this project being conducted here in Chester MA is all about creating a physical manifestation of 'sensemaking' where the actions align with the words, and both can be scratched at quite deeply without falling apart.
In other words, a place of deep integrity.
Is it pejorative to say that approximately half the nation lives in a deeply propagandized state?
One thing we all have to be able to agree upon is that there are two almost completely opposing narratives in place - the one I see evidence of, i.e. that Trump, for all his faults, is in fact trying to save us from an entrenched, globally-backed deep state that has used it’s power to try to destroy him at every turn. The other which tells us that this is all just a right wing conspiracy and Trump is everything we should hate; racist, dumb, dangerous, killer of American’s through pandemic mismanagement, etc.
There really is no middle ground and I don’t think it helps when good hearted folks like Quercus try to play peace maker. I think we are in an existential moment in this election. If you can’t see the actions of the Globalist Deep State through the lens of hydroxychloroquine, Trump’s efforts to bring it to our attention, and it’s suppression, then you are just too deeply propagandized and the wall of cognitive dissonance that has been implanted in your brain by the mass media is just too high.
I understand the desire to pull back from the ugly fray and work on and in that small world that we can control… but for me I am not going to be able to live with myself if we lose the country to the globalist monster and I just sat there on the sidelines, afraid to engage in “retail level politics”.
Oh I like QB a great deal. He’s awesome. He can play peacemaker any day as far as I’m concerned.
And if those trolls (you know who you are!) stick around long after the election is over, and continue contributing at the same rate they are now on a wide variety of non-election topics thereby proving me wrong, why, I’ll be happy to eat humble pie and buy him a nice glass of wine at the next PP get together once the nation has herd immunity and the civil war is over and we are all able to use HCQ as prophylaxis and we’re relaxing in the summer in wine country at Adam’s ranch in Sebastopol.
There. Doesn’t that sound nice? And peaceful?
Too many conditions?
In 13 years of on again off again reading here, that is the best I have read. The Honey Badger moniker is cute but does not even come close to “Retail Level Politics” . That phrase will now become a permanent member in good standing in my lexicon, especially now in the silly season.
OMG I just realized I used the word stealing and politics in the same sentence. Must have been a Freudian slip.
The image of “retail” automatically creates its corollary. That being wholesale. Wholesale politics is actually that practiced by those who can afford to buy a few senators, congress people etc. I don’t think any of those people are here. Retail is expensive and wholesale is cheap. Ex. The people of NY. may have some thoughts on how things should go, that is retail. Wholesale is Eric Schmidt and Bill Gates telling Cuomo how things should go.
Show me the incentive and I will show you the outcome. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIraCchPDhk&t=15s
I have found great comfort and peace in my life when I realized there are no political solutions to the human condition, and moved to the woods 50 years ago. My biggest problems became ticks, chiggers, copperheads, rattlesnakes, brown recluse spiders, cabbage worms, stink bugs, japanese beetles, too much rain, not enough rain and a whole host of other things. Clearly I made the right choice. Much better to deal with all of that than the three professors of politics.
The solution to the human condition is a spiritual one. It is holding everything sacred. It is realizing we are living on an amazing spaceship with everything we need to live an abundant life. The only thing we need to do is love it and nurture it.
Bottom line “fuck politics” go plant a fucking tree. That will change the world.
"If there are whole chunks of populations that you only have pejorative strawman versions of, where you can't explain why they think what they think without making them dumb or bad, you should be dubious of your own modeling."
- Daniel Schmachtenberger
I love how the very next comment proved his point right on cue, lol!
I always think of a quote from Adlai Stevenson; who after a rousing speech was greeted by someone’s congratulatory support “now every thinking man in America will vote for you”. His response supposedly was “God I hope not, I will loose the election”…and he did.
First, looking at my last post, even with those hedging by being clear that it was my opinion, there was definitely some criticism and “being right” not so well hidden in my peacemaking language.
Dave and Jim - I really think you are right, but that is only part of the story. From my perspective, there are much more fundamental flaws and predicaments that Trump’s politics do not address or even acknowledge plus Trump has his own authoritarian thread running. I also think the issue discussed by Schmachtenberger in those first 12 minutes are fundamental. If we don’t now how to listen to each other and come to understand each other’s perspective, even if there is propaganda clouding things, we’ve already lost our democracy.
In Spiral Dynamics language, the capacity to hold one viewpoint and at the same time have a deep, rich and respectful understanding of another person with an opposite viewpoint, is described as “Second Tier” thinking.
Moving from first to second tier thinking is a momentous leap in cognitive capacity. In the US and western Europe, it is estimated that only 5% of the population is second tier.
I have tried to introduce the idea of respecting and hearing opposing viewpoints on my facebook page, but it has flopped spectacularly.
My first tier friends show up, assert the absolute rightness of their viewpoint, and beg others to “wake up” to the rightness of their viewpoint. They just cannot hold multiple perspectives with respect, simultaneously.
Sigh.
From about 7:30 to 12:30 in the video I embedded in post 181, Daniel Schmactenberger describes how both Athenian and post European Enlightenment democracies were able to operate. He suggests that a large portion of the population was able to engage in second tier thinking as you describe it either through widely available classical Athenian education or post Renaissance education. From your post, I guess that you don’t agree with him and I find myself doubting him too.
If Schmactenberger was wrong, what allowed these societies to operate at least somewhat democratically? Perhaps it was a relatively convergence of interests among disparate parts of society? This could possibly be enabled when society prospers and there is plenty to go around. Perhaps limiting participation to the educated classes was another factor?
If he was right, what changed both in Classical and Modern times that brought this period to an end?
Of course, both possibilities could be involved. Furthermore, prosperous society would create the stability that would allow a larger fraction of the population to be educated and enlightened enough to participate thoughtfully in democracy. This last point, makes the truth or falsehood of Schmactenberger’s perspective less clear-cut as there is at least one positive feedback loop that can push in the direction of his view.
I wonder if there is a self reinforcing cycle in which prosperous times allow democratic governance due to convergence of interests, more widely available education, and stability which allows people to function further towards the top of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. A reversal from prosperity to hardship inevitably occurs and has the opposite effect in which democratic governance breaks down and a more autocratic and tribalistic/nationalistic (depending on scale) governance replaces it.
If I’m correct here, perhaps there is no point in fighting the trend. A more fruitful approach will be to build an alternative at whatever scale you can manage that values functioning at a higher level and tries to stay under the radar of the autocratic and/or violent movements that sweep through society.
I think a certain proprietor of this site is doing just that.
“If I’m correct here, perhaps there is no point in fighting the trend. A more fruitful approach will be to build an alternative at whatever scale you can manage that values functioning at a higher level and tries to stay under the radar of the autocratic and/or violent movements that sweep through society.”
Precisely. I’ll be in the garden (hidden in the jungle…down a long and bone-rattling dirt road), working side-by-side with like-minded people. I’ll come back out when all the screaming stops.
VIVA – Sager
The beloved Buddhist teacher Thick Nhat Hanh, age 93, is seriously ill. Many followers are posting his words, honoring his life, loving and praying for him.
This quote is a beautiful example of second tier thinking, (probably Turquoise vMeme, the “harmony meme”).
When we beat each other around the head and neck verbally to force the other into the “right viewpoint,” we have a first tier discussion. It is almost never helpful.
Only when someone stops to really listen does understanding begin.
I point towards a second tier discussion (i.e. peacemaking) and I get responses from people I respect suggesting this case is special, there is propaganda everywhere and that we really need to ensure that we have outcome DT or JB occurs this fall or we will lose our republic (well, DT in this case).
I’m going to work on wrapping my brain around your 5% second tier estimate and work towards acceptance.
Sigh.
Sand_Puppy, thank you for pointing this out! It’s so important especially in these tumultuous times.
Ongoing psychological research solidly supports Carl Rogers’ assertion that the listener’s extending accurate empathy (understanding the other person’s perspective), unconditional positive regard (acceptance and affirmation; note: not necessarily agreement with) , and genuineness are the foundation of healing in interpersonal relationships. Listening with these qualities is the foundation of helping the other person to consider other points of view later on. Debating without this foundation only stiffens resistance to other viewpoints.
It takes a lot of effort and persistence to do the work of effective listening. And the results are often slow, very slow, to take root. They may not ever become apparent to the listener. But they are so important to growing compassion in our relationships.
The guidance that you are pointing to is so important to those who are interested in developing community.
I have tried to introduce the idea of respecting and hearing opposing viewpoints on my facebook page, but it has flopped spectacularly.
There is various ways to look at this. I seek opposing viewpoints as there is no easier way to learn new things. However, I rarely "respect" said viewpoints because they are almost always wrong. That's OK; finding that rare gem is worth slugging through the mountain of slag.
Moving from first to second tier thinking is a momentous leap in cognitive capacity. In the US and western Europe, it is estimated that only 5% of the population is second tier.
This is a truism. Most people simply don't have the IQ for rational, mathematical thought (and also simply don't need it, living in groups as humans do). In fact, genetic diversity requires that most humans be measurably dumber than the above average on the bell curve (as with any genetic trait like height and running speed). It's my obsession to find many people who are smarter than myself, suck them dry, and to simply ignore the rest when it comes to seeking truth.
...assert the absolute rightness of their viewpoint, and beg others to "wake up"
Why not merely note the absolute rightness of what is most true without emotionally attaching oneself, or caring if others change? Those remaining stubbornly ignorant merely means more opportunity for those with a more accurate view of reality. We see this in investing every day; money flows to reality. All one can do? Calmly tell the truth and let the chips fall. Fact: nobody can fix stupid. Just like nobody can teach the vast majority of us to dunk a basketball. This is just reality.
And, of course, the corollary follows: if I cannot consistently make accurate predictions about the world (measurable as success over my lifetime) then it is highly unlikely my viewpoints have a factual/rational basis, no matter how much I obsess or argue over my "truth". Those who are so sure they are right? Be aware that there will be an exam at the end of the day, with reality as the judge. Still so eager to "argue" viewpoints rather than test them against the ideas of others humbly seeking reality?
I had a legendary “facebook fight” with a relative about whether “the state” should forcibly vaccinate children for measles against their family’s will. (Several hundred measles cases were present in the USA at that time.) The “other person” (OP) advocated for forced vaccinations to keep everyone safe.
Rather than listen to what was happening deep in OPs heart, I argued against her position. (I came from my own fears without consciousness.) Everything went to hell and the relationship was damaged by hostile words, words that were never forgotten.
Later I came to understand that OP was a new mother, and she was afraid that her children would be harmed by measles. This was the heart and soul of her concern. She wanted to protect her beloved children.
If I could have heard her at this level, the conversation would have gone very differently. At this level, I could have sided with her as I wanted her children to be safe, too. This could have been the foundation of our meeting. Our shared concern for her children’s safety.
Listening to her deeper meaning (which was not explicitly spoken) would have changed everything.
QB thank you for posting that video. It was exquisite. Daniel is an interesting man. I would love to hang out with him. He is homeschooled and got his BA from Maharishi University. Not the typical career path.
His thinking is quite an original synthesis of some of the greatest modern day thinkers. Watching that video was like getting a breath of fresh air after spending a lifetime in a public toilet in India. lol.
As others have mentioned (esp SP) deep listening is a critical piece of the puzzle. Most people that I have encountered (myself included at times) are formulating a response rather than listening. Amazingly that happens all the time on the internet where you can actually take as much time to respond as you wish.
Quite a few threads ago I mentioned to Mots the usefulness of Dialog in community. Clearly Daniel is a master. Rarely does one encounter another being that is as clear as he is. He spoke for an hour and a half in great detail and yet I don’t think he had any notes to draw from. Almost 200 comments deep of a coal field to find that diamond. Wow.
Dialog and Deep listening are really easy if you are curious.
I will be following him closely from now on.
That’s my narrative and I may or may not stick to it, and I certainly won’t fight to the death to defend it.
