IMO, @BillV is right this far: Trump has been an “obnoxious asshole” for a very long time. But that’s about as far as he’s right. @OliveOilGuy scores on everything else.
I will vote for Trump this fall, but I did not vote for him last time around. I did not vote for Clinton either. But I had a lot of (sometimes heated) discussions with Trump-supporting friends throughout the GOP candidate winnowing process, arguing that because he was so abrasive he could not win. My arguments fell on deaf ears.
What I learned @BillV apparently hasn’t yet: that it was because of Trump’s abrasive and aggressive nature that he won such non-breakable loyalty. The Republican rank-and-file was then very, very frustrated with the establishment GOP and angry with both MSM and the blatant corruption and lies of the DNC leadership - and especially with the corruption of the Clintons.
It’s also important to understand that the kind of talk Trump engaged in is not foreign to factory floor and construction site working people. Doesn’t mean they like it, especially women, but his willingness to be “New York blunt” is part of what still convinces so many working class people that, despite his personal wealth, Trump is one of them.
Ironically, it also appears that the snobbish put-downs and criticisms of Trump by Democrats and linked elitists has cemented his common ground standing with many in the working class who have so often experienced the same kind of dismissal.
Also, the patently false accusations around Russiagate, with its continually shifting goal posts and relentless persecution and final failure to find anything other than process crimes for a few “associates,” has helped confirm for those same persons that Trump is being treated by the “cool kids” the same way they’re so often treated.
Having accused Trump “cultists” of selective historical memory, @BillV pulls on Trump’s pre-presidential history to make the case that “Trump cultists” ignore history. I don’t think they do; I think they don’t care about Trump’s pre-presidential history any more than Democrats cared about Bill Clinton’s pre-presidential assaults and rapes of women stretching all the way back to his governor days. Hey, this is all reprehensible behavior; nobody denies that. But there’s a substantial moral and legal difference between Trump’s caddish descriptions of his treatment of women based on the power of his wealth, and Clinton’s actual assaults and rapes, including the abuse of Lewinsky which (as we’ve all been schooled) must be considered rape because of her youth, and because of the unequal power dynamic in the relationship that always makes it hard for a subordinate to refuse the advances of a workplace superior.
His argument might mean something to Democrat supporters who have their own selective history and outrage criteria, but it won’t score with Republicans simply because @BillV laments the Republican version of selective history and outrage. And that impassive divide is why we are where we are as a country. I think it’s absurd. But it’s what happens when the 4th Estate abandons its sacred trust, the political class devolves into grifterism and naked graft, and a large swath of Americans decide that their personal sense of what’s “moral” should rightly supercede what our representatives have codified as “legal.”
And let’s not gloss over the recent Transition Integrity Project report. I’m sure I’m not the only one to read it who has noticed that this “bipartisan” inquiry can foresee no scenario in which Democrats or the Biden camp might try to steal the election or frustrate the process, and can’t see anything but Trump and his cult trying to steal the election. (The only exception is a footnote-level supposition that the Biden team might become so frustrated with the shenanigans of those wily and evil Republicans that they’ll do some ethically and morally (perhaps even legally) wrong things in the heat of the moment when they’re just trying to defend themselves against the persistent misbehaviors and lies of the Trumpistas.) Note the effect this masterful piece of pre-positioned propaganda has had - how it has seeded in pop culture an advance expectation of Trump misbehaviors; has seeded a pop culture presumption that any RNC or Trump objection to DNC or Biden shenanigans (however legitimate) is a lie, while seeding pre-positioned cover and an exculpatory rationale for any exposure of DNC/Biden misbehaviors (however illegitimate).
As Kunstler, a self-described Democrat, pointed out in the recently-posted conversation with Chris, the moral and legal turpitude currently infesting the DNC leadership and associated activist community is not nearly equivalent to the much milder shortcomings of Trump, and the DNC needs to be smacked down hard to put an end to such behavior. It’s why he is voting for Trump.
I don’t know if that smack down will happen next month, but it’s why I decided over 2 years ago that I have to vote for Trump this time. I do know that whatever the outcome, about half the country will reject it. We’re just getting started on this ride.
First, your reply to Steve in comment #127 stated some of your philosophy but really didn’t reveal anything about you as a person or your occupational or professional background. Would you care to elaborate more about yourself?
Second, you mistakenly attributed this information to a comment to Dave rather than to Steve but you corrected yourself. Would you call that an honest mistake or would you call it a delusion? I would call it an honest mistake that anyone could make. Perhaps you might consider extending that same grace to some others rather than labeling them with a blanket accusation of being delusionary. Stated another way, have you considered what your motivation is for posting here and whether or not you are achieving your goals by the manner in which you are posting and responding?
Even when quoting Dear Leader’s own words, the cultists still can’t stop responding the only way the know how:
- scream “fake news!”
- change the subject
- blame shift to the media/democrats/[fill in the blank with whatever group they want to scapegoat]
It’s a tough week to be a Trump cultist. His ship is really taking on water like never before, with the self-inflicted wounds making new holes in his ship faster than they can repair them. I love the smell of Trump panic in the morning! I had better leave you poor Trump cultists alone now, as ya’ll are extra sensitive right now, seeing your dreams of establishing a Mango Mussolini dictator for life going up in smoke by the hour.
- What would be the point? I’m already cast as the enemy agent. Why would anybody in the cult believe what I said about my occupational or professional background? It would be immediately disbelieved.
- You’re being ridiculous in pretending that an honest mistake is indistinguishable from a delusion with that example. If it was a delusion, then I wouldn’t have corrected my mistake.
Hey so I’m really missing that “ignore” button we used to have. 
–> minimal energy for the trolls
Miss it terribly.
I just checked Chris’s mask video again and realised that the tweet he referenced was from the end of July. At that point, cases in Czechia had ticked up a little but deaths were still only two or three a day. I guess one could say masks had made the difference at the point but there wasn’t really much of an increase. It wasn’t until a month later that cases really started to surge again. Deaths did follow and we’re now seeing deaths per day in the 20s. So, I’m not sure why Chris included that tweet when the recent data seems to paint a very different story, though, as I mentioned earlier, maybe the mask rules and/or how they are followed may have relaxed recently. Anyone know? Czechia was looking good for a while and I hoped it may set a good example for the mandated use of masks.
In other news, the whole of New Zealand is now regarded as Covid-free again (only imported cases currently, and these are stopped at the border). No community transmission for 12 days and now no active cases that were transmitted in the community.
How’s Judy doing?
They don’t understand the word “ulitmatum”. They should have accepted the corona relief offer made months ago. Narcissists don’t care about rationality or your feelings, they just want to win. I think many in Congress must have had wishy-washy parents that “reasoned” with their children. Not like most of us who grew up in the 50’s after WWII.
Even if he’s forced out, Trump did correct several things:
- Hillary
- Supreme Court
- Obamacare
I wish he could take out Fauci and Crazy Nancy before he goes, but that maybe a bar too high.
You do realize that the GOP offer contained no state aid, right? Unlike the Federal Government, states cannot print money and borrow unlimited liquidity in the Treasury Market. Every state, red and blue, is in fiscal trouble from the unexpected Depression-sized hole blown through their budget from the unforeseen dual pandemic-economic crisis. As much as you love the idea of blue states going bankrupt, you seem to be missing the rest of the story:
- red states are in just as much trouble as blue states
- Moody’s Analytics warns that doing nothing could cost 4 million jobs
- refusing aid to the state and local governments will act as a de facto Defund the Police policy (along with Defund the firefighters, Defund the teachers, Defund the prison guards, etc.)
- Such a massive loss of jobs will put the economy back into depression
How ironic that it’s looking like Republicans are going to be the ones to Defund the Police, even after screaming and warning for months that Democrats want to defund the police!
To avoid unfairly helping some states and not others…The federal assistance could be on a per capita basis and earmarked for specific vital functions like police, fire, medical etc. This takes away the ability for the bankrupt states to try and use this crisis to compensate for bad management.
OOG-
I agree with the per-capita allocation.
Earmarking might not work so well, since they could just defund the targeted organizations for which aid is earmarked by the same amount - or more - than the aid received. Or maybe you can suggest something to get around that one.
The hard lockdown states that have destroyed their own small business community and kept their people out of work (thus reducing income and sales taxes) are definitely going to have a disproportionately harder time funding local services. Property taxes will probably have to go up - regrettably - for those that live in those areas.
Probably also true for the states where the Antifa-BLM “mostly nonviolent” protesters destroyed all those local businesses.
These states are depending on Nancy to bail them out. Perhaps that was part of the deal for letting Antifa-BLM run wild in those cities. “We’ll send you checks from the government to make it all ok.” She refuses to let checks go out to normal people unless she gets that $cash.
The idea is very unjust.
Politicians in some states (CA, for instance) jacked up promises of benefits that would never be paid, in exchange for votes. The bill is coming due. They should declare bankruptcy, lay off large numbers of government employees, and pursue financial responsibility. Citizens fed up with this will have the choice to throw the bums out and give others a try.
IF they defund police but keep the Redundant Department of Redundancy, that’s up to them. Let the citizens decide whether that’s acceptable. They can vote them out if they disapprove, and politicians ought to fear the citizenry - not the reverse.
Bailing them out will ensure these states never feel the need for financial responsibility. Get re-elected by promising teachers a 50% pay rise. Why not? Washington will just bail them out.
It’s moral hazard all over again.
And some of us left states like this years ago, largely because of issues like this and not wanting to be caught with the tab. I have no responsibility to bail out these people who I voted against and railed against, predicting exactly this disaster.
Bailing them out is a moral crime. They made their bed, let them lie in it. The voters who thought they were entitled to a free ride through life, or a cushy do-nothing gubmint job paying six figures with fancy benefits, don’t deserve the benefit of my labor.
If my language isn’t strong enough, let me know. I’ll be glad to add more.
Redneck Engineer,
You’re letting yourself get all riled up by the false propaganda and straw man misrepresentations they feed you on right wing media. Let me give you some advice: Turn off right wing media and those trying to politicize and divide unnecessarily. Question the motives of those who want to divide.
This is not a red state vs blue state issue. It’s sad that the Divider-In-Chief and the Republican Party leadership have to stoop this low and politicize this crisis as they politicize everything and continue trying to divide the nation in every possible way, even while our nation is already dangerously divided and polarized as ever.
You are repeating of the false narrative that the states’ budget crisis is due to “blue states mismanaging their budget and needing a bailout,” with made up exaggerated fables about “jacked up promises of benefits…in exchange for votes,” hyperbole being screamed on right wing media. This of course completely ignores reality, such as the fact that before this crises hit, most blue states, including California, had well managed budgets with budget SURPLUSES. Even the most well managed states and local entities are all getting hammered by this crisis. Try to have some compassion for your fellow Americans who didn’t choose this crisis. Put aside your hatred of Democrats for a moment and try to see that this is a time for national unity.
Here, you missed this part:
- The dual pandemic-economic crises have blown the largest fiscal hole into state/local budgets in history. Never have state/local budgets across the country in both red and blue states experienced this magnitude of a collapse in revenue within a single year before.
- red states are in just as much trouble as blue states
- Moody’s Analytics warns that doing nothing could cost 4 million jobs
- refusing aid to the state and local governments will act as a de facto Defund the Police policy (along with Defund the firefighters, Defund the teachers, Defund the prison guards, etc.)
- Such a massive loss of jobs will put the economy back into depression
In a time of crisis, there should never be a red vs blue America. We need to come together as one nation, like we were able to do during past crisis, such as WWII. Trump, McConnell, and mouthpieces on right wing media are cynically and intentionally dividing us in a time of crisis like this, which is outrageous and unpatriotic! These people are traitors to all who fought and died for this country to keep this nation together as a strong people, all our grandfathers and great grandfathers and their ancestors who fought to preserve this country, not for red or blue states. Those traitors who can only tear down and divide us needs to get out of the way and let those who want to govern for all of us and do their jobs of “protecting ALL Americans from ALL enemies, foreign and domestic,” carry this nation forward and get us through these crises.
If my language isn’t strong enough, let me know. I’ll be glad to add more.
Turns out, if you lock down your economies - if you place “business restrictions” on your people because all you can do is optimize for a single variable, it shows up in the unemployment rate. This drives income tax and sales receipts lower. And suicides, drug overdoses, divorces higher. And overall misery. Nobody likes being unemployed.
Unemployment rates are literally 5% higher in blue states vs red - at least the ones I looked at anyway. But - “nothing to see here.”
Policy matters. If I owned a business, I would be furious if I lived in a blue state. Unless my name was Jeff Bezos, of course. Then I’d celebrate every day, because local business closures means more money in my pocket. I’d get my newspaper to write some positive articles about the “fantastic leadership” in those blue states. Yay team.
Is this why California people are moving to my state of Texas? I have heard of zero migration in the other direction. Anecdotal?..Yes…We have a saying here…”Come if you must, but don’t bring the policies and politics with you that forced you out of California.”
Lock downs are a last resort. It is an indication that the other pandemic safety protocols were not employed. It is what happens when all other measures to contain an outbreak have failed. New York and other states experiencing an uncontrolled explosion that was crushing the health care system, had no choice but to lock down. They would not have had to do that had the federal leadership done what they were supposed to do when they first were aware of the dangerous novel virus in January, as new recordings of Trump interviewed in February prove, but denied the problem for 2 months and refused to do anything to contain it. Trump waited too long to shut down flights from China in late February. Too little too late. Trump still let in 47,000 travelers from China after he claimed to have shut down flights.
New York happened to be the port of entry for infected travelers from Europe, when everyone was looking in the direction of China. If the port of entry had been Houston, then Texas would have been in the same situation as New York, and would have been forced to shut down just the same. Stop looking at this in terms of red vs blue.
You continue to blame blue states for doing what they had to do to flatten the curve, instead of showing compassion and national unity in dealing with a severe crisis that nobody chose.
It’s too bad that some people like you can only come up with reasons to divide and blame shift and make up reasons why blue states should not be helped. Shame on you, Dave. Can’t you see our country has reached a dangerous state of division, with yesterday’s arrest of the 13 right wing extremists planning on kidnapping the Democratic Governor of Michigan and “starting a civil war?”
When will people like you decide it is time to pull back from the brink and stop the hate and blame shifting? In a time of crisis, it’s time to stop the blame and division between red and blue, and realize we can only resolve this crisis by unifying.
Being an open and free society has it’s costs. When I think about lockdowns I still have an image in my mind of Doors welded shut in Wuhan to forcibly keep people in their homes. Thank God we are not China.
The “manager” of New York, a man great at optimizing that single variable - corona virus cases - has decided that the corona virus cases in some areas of the state are just too high, and so it is now time to impose some more more restrictions on his local businesses! The ones he calls “non-essential.” I’m guessing the non-essential businesses won’t be paying much in the way of taxes - not income taxes, not property taxes, not sales taxes. Nancy! Help! Bail me out!
https://www.newsmax.com/us/andrew-cuomo-new-york-shutdown-businesses/2020/10/07/id/990768/ New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo says there will be restrictions in certain coronavirus hotspots in the state, including shutdowns of businesses, houses of worship, and schools. The rules will take effect no later than Friday in parts of Brooklyn and Queens, sections of Orange and Rockland counties north of the city, and an area within Binghamton near the Pennsylvania border. The planned restrictions include school and nonessential business shutdowns in some areas. Others would see limits on gatherings and in restaurants.Hospitals overflowing? Yeah, not so much. If you squint, you can see (in the lower right) that the hospitalizations have ticked up - to about 4% of where they were back in April. Check out that 12.5% "unemployment rate" in New York in my previous post. This rate isn't just bad luck - it is this "business restrictions" policy that explains why it remains so high. Virtually no hospitalizations, but "business restrictions" aplenty. Not to mention all the damage from the "mostly peaceful protests" alongside the defunding of the police. It is hard to work in a store that's been boarded up, looted, burned, or labeled as "non-essential" by the guy in command who gets a government check and lives in a government house. How many local shops have been "non-essentialed" out of business entirely by the Manager of New York? Even the "Failing New York Times" says: 33%. They won't be paying taxes ever again. Or employing anyone. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/03/nyregion/nyc-small-businesses-closing-coronavirus.html "Nancy! Help! My focus on optimizing that one variable at the expense of my economy has cost me a third of my tax base!" Of my small business tax base anyway. If incompetence in office continues to be excused, rewarded, or ignored - we will get an unending stream of incompetent decisions leading to some really predictable outcomes - such as that 12.5% unemployment rate. Your takeaway: "There is more to assessing the quality of a politician's policy choices than just corona virus hospitalization numbers."
Man, I sure do pity people caught up in retail level politics. Looks awful.
Nothing makes sense, you have to overlook ghastly things in your preferred party to demonize the other (with the exact same antics) and, worst of all, you have to forget stuff that happened literally last week in order to ingest today’s talking points.
In other words, its a place of enforced low integrity. You have to abandon logic, reason, and consistency in order to play ball with one side or the other.
I can only imagine the ridiculous amount of mental fortifications necessary to keep all that bullshit at bay. Must be exhausting, physically and mentally.
I feel fortunate to be able to make up my own mind and not have to adopt somebody else’s ever-shifting narratives which, truthfully, are almost never in service to myself or my fellow citizens and nearly always in service to that other person’s personal fortunes and sense of power.
This thread is a great reminder for yet another thing I have to be grateful for in my life.