The effects we are looking for or believe to happen , is not observable. You cannot prove a negative. You can say what caused someone to die/ If they do not die … what caused them to live? You cannot perform a retrospective study on this type of effect. The only way you can do this … is give one group HCQ and another none - and challenge them both identically. It can be done very simply in a study… However, I have yet to see it done. No one seems willing to do it. Why? because no one has people in an out-patient setting who is doing well, monitored for qt syndrome, blood work, or other issues. medical records will not show when they are devoid of any such anomalies. So for now, all you have is the empirical data from practitioners using it. Who all say it works… The only people saying it doesnt are doing observations of hospital dying patients. I have yet to see a real study of prophylaxis use… because you wont see them in the hospital going “we are dying… we are sick… we took HCQ as a prophylactic”. ( so there a no medical records to follow or review ) You dont review the medical records of well people. And if you did, there would be nothing to use. It would be excluded. You have to do a controlled random sample. I have not seen a single study of this design for HCQ.
So the systematic review, is just noting there is nothing you could possibly conclude by doing it the way they are wanting and doing it. Its garbage sceince. Its obvious to us… hence this thread.
PS I do not count prolonged QT syndrome as a dangerous side-effect. Many drugs cause this and no one said hey lets stop them… In fact many of psychiatric drugs cause this as does zpak. And with all most of those, no one says hey this is dangerous - too dangerous to use for a disease that is not killing you.
Sofistek-
The HCQ was given to front line healthcare workers. Apparently, when working in that job, its a good idea to wear gloves. Failure to wear any PPE at all when doing that job - very dangerous.
So if you - personally - are taking care of someone who is sick, possibly with COVID-19, its a good idea to wear gloves. That’s what the study shows. Or if you are cleaning up their room.
Otherwise, if you are just a normal person with normal risk, I’d guess that gloves might not be something you personally need to do.
However, the prophylaxis effect of HCQ would still apply to you. It might be even greater, percentage-wise, since you have a lower exposure profile.
If HCQ can protect people with high exposure, it can probably do even better for those whose exposures aren’t as serious.
I get what TamHob says about the effect on the hands of washing continually, so gloves could help there and perhaps just wash the gloves not the hands. To DaveFairtex, I saw that the study mentioned gloves and documented the amount of glove wearing but I didn’t see anything which suggested how gloves could protect from SARS-Cov-2. The only reason I’ve seen so far that is plausible is if you have cuts on your hands, then gloves prevent those cuts being a route for the infection to enter. As Chris has said several times, the virus doesn’t enter through the skin and the only reason to not touch your face is to avoid touching the areas where the virus can enter (eyes, nose, mouth). However, there may be something I’m missing here.
Yeah, general community use seems a bit puzzling and wasteful. Unless you are donning correctly then they don’t protect anyone from what’s on your hands and doffing similarly needs to be done correctly to protect yourself. Having seen it done, probably far fewer people could do it right than can wear a mask correctly, especially if arthritic.
Also, even if you are putting the gloves on and off correctly, if they get contaminated they will stay contaminated and spread the virions around until you take them off. Whereas a healthy skin ecology will clear the particles pretty quickly even without washing or sanitising, though frustratingly I couldn’t find much comparison research eg https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22264744/ and none on Covid-19.
So I reckon they only make sense for very short tasks in situations where hand washing is impracticable and sanitiser is not provided (noting I have not yet been able to work out how to use a personal pack of sanitiser without handling the outside). Maybe something like pumping fuel? Seems minimal benefit though. If I want to remind myself not to touch my face I’m wearing scratchy wool gloves.
I enjoy your logic. I just add why not “observe” what happens to patients who suffer from disease for which HCQ is used to control said disease and see statistically if they have “in their population” fewer cases of COVID-19? It is true that if proof is what you are looking for - you will need some people who are willing to play Russian roulette with their health. The dilemma is that once you pass the 5 first days of infection - you are no longer under control of your own destiny - health wise. Will your immune system work well-enough on its own?
Another way of attacking our “proof” problem is to have a study where healthy people with comorbidities are given HCQ - and others not - to see if their are side-effects for the dosage and duration desired. I take beta-blockers and tension reducing pills - plus a blood thinner. When I am seated and nicely relaxed by heart beats at 40 pulses per minute with a low blood pressure. Dr Raoult has said that it is the medication which puts people like me in danger for SarsCoV2. He recognizes that age and heart medication are the two groups who HCQ+AZ did not shake their viral load after 10 days of treatment.
All that to say - I would be willing to test HCQ according to a protective protocol usage (or blind test), but there is no way I am getting on an airplane until a prophylaxis is readily available. Anyone in the hotel business reading this? Do you hear me President Trump?
There was supposed to be a study from Montpellier released along these lines - but because of the Lanset fiasco, our health Minister ordered all studies closed on HCQ.
TamHob, good points on the gloves. As far as sanitiser goes, I use a small bottle with a push dispenser lid. If I’ve only contaminated one hand, I use the other to dispense, where possible. Otherwise, I dispense enough to smother the bottle and then do my hands.
It appears , that the powers that be has nailed coffin shut on HCQ - you wont even get a clinical trial , in-patient or anything. Its hard to believe they could take a drug used so long without any cardiac warnings, without any reports of cardiac deaths - including use for conditions that dont kill you, and make it dangerous all of sudden for disease that will kill you. GOOD JOB USA. I say let the riots start… and continue and increase. Let the USA govt burn to the ground for ever and ever. A lot of death is coming. Needless death. I for one , if still around, will hold all these people accountable if still alive , when the new govt is in control.
You have first responders, police ( india -no deaths for treated vs 10s of deaths for untreated) , firefighters ( US ), medical staff ( india ) taking this as a prophylactic with no one dying - the only people dying are people on vents with cardiac issues ( previous ) dying from a disease that causes cardiac issues. BUT ITS THE F"NG drug killing them…
Per post #99 above the interview with Dr. Zelenko says that Quercetin with Zinc does the same thing as HCQ. No prescription needed. If I remember correctly, quercetin is found in elderberry, as Chris has so frequently recommended.
Quercetin should be a part of any kind of infectious process therapy. The question is really what is a therapeutic dose?
I believe, HCQ was first investigated as a candidate for therapy because it was observed by the chinese in wuhan that people on the drug ( who were in wards at the hospital ) seemed to fair out much better than others who contracted it in the hospital. So, this type of observation was the basis for its original introduction.
The thing I would like to see is a direct challenge… use a controlled population - US military would be great ( all should be of similar and normal stature , physique, fitness, age and diet. ) I was in the US military , and one thing you learn is you are property and you are expendable. They are allowed to do experiments with you. and should in these instances ( within reason ) I bet there are many that would volunteer for the better good for our country. That is why they are there in the first place. take about 1000 of them and challenge them with the virus… they all get the virus the same time - from the same source… same concentration and viral load. heck they do this in basic training with the “cold pill” its a coronvirus they give to all newbies… at the same time… Then track the two or three groups… and you cannot only track for death but for symptoms and severeness. Done Done.
For those of you who don’t know the context of this, Surgisphere had published something related to Covid-19 unrelated to HCQ earlier in the NEJM purporting to be based on a smaller, earlier version of the same magic database. NEJM to Lancet, NEJM to Lancet… hello… hello… are you there? Can you hear us?
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe2020822?query=featured_homeExpression of Concern: Mehra MR et al. Cardiovascular Disease, Drug Therapy, and Mortality in Covid-19. N Engl J Med. DOI: 10.1056/NEJMoa2007621.
List of authors.n May 1, 2020, we published “Cardiovascular Disease, Drug Therapy, and Mortality in Covid-19,”1 a study of the effect of preexisting treatment with angiotensin-converting enzyme (ACE) inhibitors and angiotensin-receptor blockers (ARBs) on Covid-19. This retrospective study used data drawn from an international database that included electronic health records from 169 hospitals on three continents. Recently, substantive concerns have been raised about the quality of the information in that database. We have asked the authors to provide evidence that the data are reliable. In the interim and for the benefit of our readers, we are publishing this Expression of Concern about the reliability of their conclusions.
- Eric J. Rubin, M.D., Ph.D.
yagasjai-
Thanks for reminding me why I ordered that Quercetin. I saw that Seheult video a while back and promptly ordered some, but the delay between order and arrival was just long enough that I forgot why it was I actually ordered it. 
A poor-man’s zinc ionophore. Fantastic. I should put some masking tape with hand-written instructions on the bottle. “Zinc ionophore. Use (with zinc) in case of SC2 infection.”
I understand that “the Lancet” published something regarding the safety of HCQ several years ago… ( which showed it is safe ) I am unable to source it.
Hey, Nordic,
I watched a MedCram video in which Dr. Seheult covered the use of both HCQ and quercetin in either China or Hong Kong (I forget which) during either the SARS outbreak some years ago or in the H1N1 epidemic. Whichever it was, the medicos found that both worked against the virus in question. The therapeutic doses of quercetin–and this is well into the onset of symptoms–was from 3 to 7 grams. 3000 to 7000mg. Dr Seheult commented that that seemed like a lot, but this isn’t a drug. Natural supplements are like that. You have to take more to get the effect of a chemical drug.
I’m taking 500mg daily as prophylaxis along with zinc. I’m also taking in tonic water (yeah, with gin and lime) for the quinine, which HCQ is sort of a chemical analogue of.
Tasty and refreshing and very calming in the face of all the stuff going on. Dive in.
Hi all,
Quercitine and ECGC (green tea) are both weak ionophores. I bought kinabast, the bark used to make quinine as TPTB do not allow me to buy HCQ. I used 2 grams per day to make 4 cups of tea (boil 10 minutes, let it cool 10 minutes, then pour it into glass jar or bottle). I took it together with zinc (25mg per day). Symptoms disappeared after 3 days. Took same dose another 4 days. Now I’m reducing the dosis to 2 cups per day.
During the day also drank green tea and oregano tea (from wild oregano). This is both antiviral and a weak antibiotic. In my case vitamine C helped to reduce symptoms, but I was not able to fight it off. Now I feel way better than the last 7 weeks!
Kinabast is relatively cheap, but you have to make sure not to overdose: 4 grams max per day, i used 2 grams max, and, no more than 0.5 grams per cup.
Take care!
Sodium bicarb is a mineral inophore… Not sure if its selective or not. or if works with zinc but does work for other minerals. Cinchona ( kinabast) bark tea, has several other alkaloids, all equally as effective against malaria as HCQ.
DaveDD-
Well. That’s really useful! My forays into this stuff are all academic at this point since I don’t actually have a current “situation”. I’ve filed your account away, to be dragged out in the event I run into difficulty. I have a chinese medicine shop about a block away. I’m guessing I just need to know the Chinese name for kinabast and Bob will be my Uncle.
Super cool story. Survival of the fittest and all.
I mean, if I were really fit, I’d order some kinabast…
I got my bag last week. Steeped about a heaping tablespoon for 30” . Oh MY! Never tasted anything so bad! Turns out a half teaspoon is all I should have used. But it was definitely a quinine taste so I’m saving it for The infection. I also have the tincture form but I don’t know what to do with it. It would just be all so much simpler if I had 10 tabs of chloroquine.
Is this the one you were looking for (from 2003)?
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(03)00806-5/fulltext?fbclid=IwAR0LTG0U0zvEWA1C5cPq9nmJb0oPejBxmoycvcrSC3imIl1W2Z3ITJqWJgU