[quote=Grover]I'm wondering if there is any movement in the medical community to have a system similar to CSA (community supported agriculture) where you buy shares and receive periodic boxes of food. Since health care is used on an "as needed" basis, I don't know how this would work. Do you have any thoughts on this? Would this be a way to subvert the centralizing government requirements? Can this model survive/thrive after a global collapse?
Grover
[/quote]
Thanks Grover. I've considered the concept you mentioned and may possibly do something along those lines in the future. Some are already doing it, with mixed results. There are pros and cons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concierge_medicine
Considering the recent flu epidemic, one of the cons is that for family practitioners and internists, they can easily get overwhelmed. How do they serve all their patients and keep them happy and healthy without becoming extremely overworked themselves, having their immune systems depressed as a consequence, coming down with the same illness, and then failing to help ANY of their patients?
Another big problem is the system over-utilizers, the ones who run to the doctor for any little problem (actual, exaggerated, or imagined) who are more fear driven than average and less self reliant than average. Individuals of this psychology and physiology are ones that contribute to the escalation of healthcare costs for all the rest of us. Then there is the opposite end of the spectrum, the under-utilizers, usually male. They wait until they are so sick or so disabled that the problem is much more serious, more difficult to treat, more expensive to treat, and sometimes irreversible, and then that winds up costing us all a lot more.
Then there is the question of computing costs and the potential for cost overruns. Certainly, actuarial studies would be needed that would compute risk based on psychological and physiological profiles with the patient being charged accordingly. Generating that information is obviously much easier said than done.
What we need is a whole new system … one that starts with education from an early age in health self awareness, self maintenance, and self treatment. This concept may not go over well though with some patients who are not of that personality type nor with some healthcare practitioners who are the type to encourage patient dependence more than independence and reliance more than self-knowledge and competence in self care. What is ultimately needed is a system that encourages, motivates, and rewards personal responsibility on the part of the patient.
A system that has to spend inordinate amounts of money for an individual who overeats, smokes, drinks, indulges in high risk activities, etc. without that person experiencing the direct financial consequences of their actions will never work well over the long term. For example, if someone slips on ice on their front porch, falls and injures themselves, I don't think many of us would have a problem helping them out financially. But when someone knowingly participates in an activity like extreme skiing and gets dinged up, is it fair for the rest of the population to have to carry them financially? Even more so with activities such as smoking. I don't have all the answers but like in so many other areas, early and comprehensive education is a very good start. Totalitarian societies indoctrine children so as to have more influence and control over them as adults. Why not start with positive "brainwashing" (i.e. education) to make unhealthy living unpopular, uncool, and unsexy. Marketing, advertising, and propaganda work in other areas. Why not apply it to the common good?
Speaking of alternative medicine here is something you can try at home if you get cancer.(this is going to make big pharma unhappy)
http://vimeo.com/channels/418298/54542349
Granny,
Obamacare will have negative consequences and costs will go up. Remember the saying, "Be careful what you wish for" because it will come to fruition with Obamacare for many. Information sources are so diverse and piecemeal on this subject that, offhand, I don't have any good recommendations for you. From what I gather, Obamacare is 2,000 pages long and Medicare law is 50,000 pages long. Good luck keeping up on that. I know I can't. In the healthcare professions, we're just scrambling from one CMS transmittal to another, trying to keep our heads above water as new bureaucratic policies are instituted, rethought, revised, and reinstituted … again and again. The point is to keep everyone off balance … and it's working. Some of what I reference is not yet fact but my expectation of where we are going, given past and present trends, if that is any consolation to you.
The best thing to do is to learn as much as possible about taking care of yourself starting with nutrition, nutriceuticals and herbals, exercise, meditation, stress reduction, and overall psychological/spiritual health. You going to want to become as independent of the system as possible and build your immune system health as much as possible.
Ao,
Very true, I think your advice now applies to all aspects of our lives now
[quote=AkGrannyWGrit]Thanks for taking the time to share ao, I found it very insightful. Since a huge part of living in a peak prosperity environment would be good health it would be of benefit to get more information on the health care system. For instance, I have heard that our health care will experience some negative consequence from Obamacare but don't have information on how. Have also heard that our costs are going up? Part of the 3 E's is economy and medical costs are a big part of most peoples budget. Would like to get more info, any suggestions for educational websites or perhaps more insight ao? Some of what you reference is quite scary, think I need to learn more about this topic as well.
Thoughts?
AK Granny
[/quote]
Granny,
I wanted to give you and others something a little more actionable. Here's a book by Joel Fuhrman called Super Immunity. Do the Look Inside on Amazon and scroll down to page 6 to give you just one peak at what you can do for your health.
http://www.amazon.com/Super-Immunity-Essential-Nutrition-Boosting/dp/0062080636/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1359294752&sr=1-1&keywords=super+immunity+joel+fuhrman#_
The book looks really interesting, am going to get a couple of them and share with the kids. I appreciate your feedback and sound advice. It appears that the magic really is exercise and a healthy diet. Always open to sage advice should you think of anything else:)
Arthur, enjoyed the video you posted, it makes perfect sense but there is no profit in curing cancer.
Thanks for sharing.
AK Granny
…the rhetoric going on here has still in spite of ourselves been very successful in prolonging life even with immune systems so depressed you would have thought we all would have died already. Fear and stress is what makes you sick and that is that. IMHO
Moderation in everything is still the best plan.
Twinkies were introduced in the 1930's and yet we live 18 years and rising longer than when Twinkies were invented. Fast foods and preservatives are common fair still today and for the last 50 years.
I think in 1930 that we walked more, rode bikes more, did physical labor as the norm and generally lived better and more nutritious lives. I don't believe we had chemical preservatives or even had the environmental issues we face today. So, just look at these simple facts, and tell me how the hell we went wrong and are such a foolish race?
What it will come down to is what do we want to pay for? I believe Obamacare is here to stay so we raise the Social Security age to 72 for half benefits and 78 for full benefits then. What's the big deal.
Antibiotics are the true measure of our success not immune system strengthening (although I will never argue that a balanced diet, exercise and quiet are good things). Anti rejection drugs for implants are the sure miracle as a life saving drug.
The simple 81mg aspirin is the best medicine anyone over the age of 40 can take each and every day.
Now, if we are talking financial problems as a country then the fact that we live beyond the age of 65 is what ales us all today, and that we should have had a scalable Social Security plan through the years because it was never suppose to pay off in the first place. That and the fact we let abled bodied Men and Women live off the working classes labor without doing something for those supporting their transition to employment. Put these Folks to work cutting grass, helping at community parks and taking basic English and math classes. Do something with them so that they get off the lamb as soon as possible. Any flipping burger job should be filled by anyone receiving welfare. That simple. Hey, I love these Folks, and I love them enough to care that they contribute and feel good about themselves as Men and Women.
Really, these Folks are doubling and tripling up in some paces, and are living a helluva lot larger lives than some here even know. Plus they hit all the "clubs" for free food and clothing. People really do donate cloths that are way nicer than what these Folks have ever warn so why not raid the nearest Salvation Army! Turkey, Ham and day old bread! That's some good grub Folks. Hey, a little secret, some lower middle class Folks live pretty good out there. Trust me, been there done that back in the 70's and the way I was raised got me out of that system. I will say though it is easier to game that system and live large should that be where I have to go again.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005148.html
No comments necessary.
Peace
BOB
Prolonging life is fine as long as there is quality to it. I don't want or need to live a hundred plus years. Eighty-six to ninety seems to be a good life span. Beyond that the body just starts to break down. Yes, I know some will argue that bio-technology may well allow us to live well beyond that 86 to 90 year lifespan, but so what if it does if my friends and loved ones have pre-deceased me? It's a sad, lonely existence, to be old, alone, dependent and waiting, warehoused in some senior living facility.
When I can't grow my own food, enjoy the simple pleasures of daily life or take care of my own personal needs I would choose to exercise my right to self-determination and exit stage left. It's certainly a discussion I've had with the love of my life as well as colleagues as we have shared our fears about what is to come for those who are younger and by that I mean less than age 60.
As the healthcare industry starts to implode on itself we may well see the lifespan of the younger generations shrink again. Most notably among those who just simply can not afford to pay for it or by virtue of the lack of access to trained professionals as those in the baby boomer generation retire. There are simply not enough people entering the medical professions to replace those that will retire let alone deal with the cohort that will be demanding access to care that they have paid into for the past 40 years of their working lives.
Antibiotics are a wonderful tool when used appropriately. Unfortunately, their use has been abused in the commodity meat industry as well as in healthcare. To that end we now have a growing list of antibiotic resistant bacteria, MRSA (Methicillin-resistant Staphylocccous aureus), E.coli, Salmonella, and Campylobacter, not to mention Tuberculosis.
I'm officially stepping off my soap box for now.
Lynne
Lynne, I'm with you. For me our truly better days are getting some years past our prime now, and life without my Lady or friends and family isn't as interesting to me without them so what is the point. It takes twice the effort now to accomplish what was easily done not 5 years ago. Living life is still supreme and I do just as much but more time on each task is now necessary.I am relatively young but then we all see ourselves as 30 something, and the reality is we are now the Grandpa's and Grandma's. You know, those people, the ones who require the boy scouts to help them across the street so they can earn their badges. LOL Where has time gone? I could walk literally all day, from sun up to sun down any golf course in Michigan or anywhere for that matter, day after day, and NOT get tired. Just come home, shower and head off to a family function and drink and dance all night long. I did this until about 50 years old, and then things started to happen and it took its toll. From here I will not elaborate but to say I still enjoy every minute of every day.Sincerely
BOB
This gives a good snapshot of what you have to deal with. I'm sure you could write a book. In regard to administrative costs, I also remember back 20 yrs that the estimates of cost reductions from cutting out the insurance companies would be around 50%, mostly by standardizing forms (administrative). One thing I thought of that feeds into this conversation is systematic "lock-in." It's why as much as I like the idea of UHC (who wouldn't, it recognizes the value and potential of every human being), I'm not sure it would be possible in this country. Maybe 20-30 years ago before the healthcare field became completely corporatized. There are too many industries that rely on the healthcare system remaining what it is. The financial banking system is the same. So I agree, it comes down to money and power. Anyone who watched the "Untouchables" video received that message at the end when Breuer admitted he couldn't go after corporation X because it would have too much of an economic ripple effect. Our systems are so complex now, with structural corruption built in, that it appears we can't make any major changes to them without major collapses of other systems that are derivatives. Any computer program can tell you that system/network lock-in is real and holds major consequences well into the future.
Bob, I agree that the medical field has done a great job prolonging life, but there are those overwhelming costs that come up for instance when elderly parents have to be put into care facilities just to keep them alive. The costs can often wipe out the wealth of the parents as well as the wealth of their children. Can anyone say redistribution of wealth?
Thank You
I have had in the last 6 years well over $300,000 dollars worth of surgeries. One to save my eye and a recent surgery for that too, and we'll see. I had neck surgery with the plates and screws. I had nasal reconstruction, and surgery for a herniated umbilicus. I spent 3 days in the hospital and everything else was same day, outpatient care and time for operating room expense. The system is broken for sure. The bills for this and that were outrageous and none of the care given was for life threatening surgery. My out of pocket expense wasn't noticed.Getting old will be expensive and I just don't know how the system will ever pay for what is coming down the pike.
If just antibiotics were available, one 81mg aspirin taken every day by everyone 40 and over, and better care given to ones physical conditioning, and diet then life expectancy would probably still be in the 70's. I do not believe any one surgery has given me an extra day on this planet but it has given me quality of life.
I would not have done any surgery's if I didn't have the means to do so (my wife's hospital benefits plan took care of the bills). It should be this way are my quiet thoughts. The eye would have had to be removed and the eye tended to so I would have had to pay for that or society, and society wouldn't have issue with this I don't believe but the others were not life threatening and therefore should have been a payment I made, and not provided by all of you Folks.
I think the solutions are there but WE WERE PROMISED, we PAID FOR THE SERVICES, and the ones who have done all the promising are out of sight and hiding in their little dungeons in Washington. Working very hard themselves to bleed the system as hard as they can before they walk out of that place with wealth beyond their dreams and protected themselves by the laws they make. Take insider trading laws for instance… I'll stop there as it is enough of what is wrong in Washington.
Medical care should be ability to pay but the system has to be fare too, and it is not. We have paid into this care system all of our working lives and it has been squandered so now we fix it. Get it right and hopefully this is done in a way that doesn't blow the system to hell in the process because what's the point of that.
So many major issues confront us and when we stop one leak here another will spring up there and this party goes on for a bit longer, a lot longer than we think actually. If we ever do figure this beast out.
I really hate saying this but I want a Depression just so we move off of center and actually start doing something to fix things. We need a very rude awakening, and those responsible for this mess must be made to pay if you have to claw back for generations all that has been stolen. That isn't going to happen though. So death by a thousand cuts and Chinese water torture until the end then.
Respectfully
BOB
Bob,
The unfortunate thing is, as Lynne stated, that there are more and more anti-biotic resistant bacteria that are appearing. I've worked with people with these infections as I'm sure Lynn has. They are nasty, hard to stop, and very expensive to treat. Plus, there are viral, fungal, and other micro-organisms which are not treatable with anti-biotics. As such, strengthening one's immune system and improving one's health is going to become increasingly important. I would not denigrate the importance of these measures, especially when, to my knowledge, you don't work in the health care field nor are you educated in this area. Also, the aspirin a day is old paradigm. I never agreed with it when it was being pushed. And the research is increasingly backing up the fact that it is not a good idea. Your other statements that have questionable accuracy, I can let slide, but these I can't because peoples' health and wellbeing is potentially at risk.
BTW, the fight video was interesting … two great boxers. But here's a great fighter who was never allowed to fight in this country. More spirit than anyone I've ever seen (except perhaps for Helio Gracie) with knockout power in both fists and both feet (to say nothing of elbows and knees).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnduJe-Xth0
And Helio Gracie lived to 95 and was training and teaching up to 10 days before he died. If you study his diet, you know one of the reasons he could do what he did. This is the type of health, stamina, power, and toughness you want to develop for what is to come. And he produced sons who could do what he could … take on bigger, heavier opponents, one after another, and take them all down. Remarkable fighters with no bluster, just guts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB6_hzCipjY
And there are a host of other problems as well.
And guess what … 5 or more servings of dark green leafy vegetables per week (kale, collards, spinach, Swiss chard, beet greens, turnip greens, mustard greens, etc.) will cause an 86% drop in the incidence of developing macular degeneration … all for just making like Popeye.
Here's another one for you Granny. I've had patients get excellent results with this information.
http://www.amazon.com/Younger-Next-Year-Strong-Beyond/dp/076114773X
…in our family. All males lived into their 80's but my Pops. All had heart attacks by my age. I have not and feel fit as a fiddle. I do take 81mg aspirin daily, and are stress free knowing I am taking extra precaution so I figure the stress level alleviation alone is worth some time before I have my big one! LOL. Besides Arthur, eye problems don't run in our family at all. Dummy me, I had a piece of glass (about a pound) slam into my eye at work from about 18 feet up from a chandelier and, well, I'll keep taking my 81mg aspirin.My problems are that everything I love, the romance of eating, and the Neanderthal genes flowing through my veins are really drawn to the bloody animal type of eating. The Lamb, veil, whole fat yogurts, humus, and green salad type finger eating foods with peta bread. I love my spinach and my dates. I guess I just like everything, even what you are not suppose to eat and that is my down fall. I still believe in moderation but sometimes moderation is relative to how much I want to eat. Take Oreos, who can really sit without eating the whole package of oreos with a half a glass of milk? I can't, I really can't. I hang with people who eat as I do so none of us are subconscious, and so less stressed about pigging out. Stress is bad we all know that. So I take my aspirin faithfully.
Happy Sailing Captain my Captain
BOB
Take care Bob.
Perhaps we need a medical thread. I hope AO will take charge, please.
[quote=RJE]…in our family. All males lived into their 80's but my Pops. All had heart attacks by my age. I have not and feel fit as a fiddle. I do take 81mg aspirin daily, and are stress free knowing I am taking extra precaution so I figure the stress level alleviation alone is worth some time before I have my big one! LOL. Besides Arthur, eye problems don't run in our family at all. Dummy me, I had a piece of glass (about a pound) slam into my eye at work from about 18 feet up from a chandelier and, well, I'll keep taking my 81mg aspirin.
My problems are that everything I love, the romance of eating, and the Neanderthal genes flowing through my veins are really drawn to the bloody animal type of eating. The Lamb, veil, whole fat yogurts, humus, and green salad type finger eating foods with peta bread. I love my spinach and my dates. I guess I just like everything, even what you are not suppose to eat and that is my down fall. I still believe in moderation but sometimes moderation is relative to how much I want to eat. Take Oreos, who can really sit without eating the whole package of oreos with a half a glass of milk? I can't, I really can't. I hang with people who eat as I do so none of us are subconscious, and so less stressed about pigging out. Stress is bad we all know that. So I take my aspirin faithfully.
Happy Sailing Captain my Captain
BOB
[/quote]
Here you go Bob. Reversing heart disease without drugs or surgery.
http://www.amazon.com/Ornishs-Program-Reversing-Heart-Disease/dp/0804110387
The meat and fat are not necessarily bad if that is your metabolic type. The Oreos are horrendous regardless of your metabolic type.
[quote=Arthur Robey]I rely on blueberries and saurerkraut for my vegetables, however
http://vimeo.com/52606062
source.
[/quote]
Arthur,
Very interesting video. I would have had a good time debating her. She made some good points and she was incorrect about a few things but mostly, she seemed almost confused and didn't provide solid actionable information. She seemed highly intelligent but overly dependent and exclusively reliant upon a limited array of studies. She certainly cherry-picked a lot. The main factor she did not consider (and one of the most important ones) was an individual's (genetic) metabolic type. Also, with regards to the meat eating, she presented some hearsay information (Eskimos and no cancer) and did not consider raw vs. cooked meat, muscle vs. organ meat, grain fed vs. grass fed meat, meat from a pristine environment vs. meat from a polluted environment, etc. Also, she did not consider synergistic effects of nutrients and foods versus isolated consumption. And ancestral food preparation methods and their reasons were not discussed. In addition, she overlooked some other roles of fiber and the soluble vs. insoluble fiber issue. Regarding the potential problems with Vitamins A and E, she failed to mention that those studies were all done with synthetic forms and without the synergistic effects of co-factors. Also, her slide saying just 10 mg. of Vitamin C per day is essential was shocking. One would develop scurvy over the long term with this low an intake. She discusses the anti-inflammatory effects of glycoalkaloids but clinically, I can't think of that effect ever being observed. On the contrary, the effect is neutral to inflammatory. Norman Childers has lectured extensively on this issue and many have seen the results clinically, again and again. If you notice, she really did not answer anyone's question well. It reminded me of Ben Bernanke in front of Congress. I think she's on the take from the North American Meat Processors Association, lol. But seriously, it'd be interesting to see who funded her work. But it was an interesting view and gives one pause. Thanks.
P.S. Her definition of a vegetable was certainly not consistent with that of plant scientists at Rutgers University horticultural farms and greenhouses that I worked for during high school and college. I don't know how she came up with that one.