Luke Gromen: The Debt Dilemma and the Fork in the Road

Originally published at: https://peakprosperity.com/luke-gromen-the-debt-dilemma-and-the-fork-in-the-road/

Today’s podcast features the one, the only, the amazing Luke Gromen, the founder of Forest for the Trees. We covered a LOT of territory, and it moves along so crisply you might find you have to listen to it at 1.0x speed.

We discussed:

  • The flashing yellow warning signals being emitted by rapidly rising Japanese Government Bond (JGB) yields, unwinding Japanese Yen carry trades, and a mysteriously weak yen/USD.
  • AI capital expenditures (CapEX) have shuffled over into bubble danger territory now that they are increasingly being funded with debt rather than from corporate cash flows.
  • Bitcoin’s role as a rather pure play liquidity indicator seems to be indicating that global liquidity has suddenly dried up., possibly due to the yen carry trades unwinding.
  • The fact that some “OG” Satoshi era wallets recently offloaded billions of dollars of Bitcoin is also a sign that deserves both scrutiny and consideration.
  • Luke believes that some people, including Secretary Bessent, are inappropriately discounting China’s actual power and manufacturing dominance.
  • Silicon Valley now has to contend with China as an actual competitor in technological progress. They haven’t had a peer competitor before.
  • AI’s massive power demands (e.g., just one Meta data center consuming 0.5% of US natural gas daily production) will strain grids and natural gas supplies, with lags in infrastructure (e.g., 5-year generator waits) adding to the difficulties.
  • Luke discussed the fact that US grid capacity has more-or-less stagnated since 2000, contrasted with China’s rapid expansion, which has added 100% of current US grid capacity over the past 10 years.
  • Silver Market Dynamics: Industrial demand (solar + AI + ) is projected to exceed 100% of mine supply in 2025, forcing price rises or demand cuts; recent CME outage raises suspicions of market strains, including silver ETF fails-to-deliver.
  • The K-Shaped Economy and Social Tensions: Widening wealth gaps (e.g., Michael Green’s poverty line debate around $140K for families) reflect a feudalistic divide, with the top 10% thriving while the bottom 90% struggles amid inflation, bankruptcies, weak consumer sentiment, and extremely weak hiring for recent college graduates.

But the main thread that wove throughout this podcast was The Debt Dilemma and the Fork in the Road we’re going to soon be forced to take.

Japan may well lead the way, and the choice is between saving its bond market (buy buying bonds with freshly printed yen)or saving the yen (by allowing the bond market to sell off and interest rates to rise to whatever heights are required).

Path A is a currency crisis (if not a collapse).

Path B is a bond crisis that will rapidly result in a government fiscal crisis (as well as any over-leveraged companies and individuals).

Following Japan will be Europe and the US, which, at 120% debt-to-GDP, also faces a choice between bond market collapse (deflationary crash) or currency debasement via yield curve control (inflationary, Argentina-like outcomes).

How did we get here? Chronic short-termism since 1971 has led to problems requiring real investment and austerity, but instead we’ve been ‘treated’ to larger and larger print-a-thon bailouts of the financial class. Also, Luke suggests oh-so-politely that perhaps allowing ourselves to be governed almost exclusively by lawyers wasn’t the best choice.

What’s Luke’s investment strategy for times like these? He advocates humility and diversification inspired by Jacob Fugger, the 15th-century German merchant.

The ‘Fugger’ portfolio places 25% each in:

  1. Gold (no counterparty risk),
  2. Land (productive yield),
  3. Blue-chip/high-dividend equities, and
  4. Cash

With such a portfolio, you are protected from each of the ‘fat tails’ (Path A and Path B from above) that will wipe out more conventional portfolios. Along the way, you may need to rebalance as the risks tilt toward one path or the other, all while managing political/geopolitical exposures.

You will “lose some soldiers” with this approach, but you won’t be wiped out, Luke tells us.

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Nice to see Fugger mentioned. He doesn’t get mentioned much. I like his portfolio idea.

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I’m an old McAlvany triangle guy.
Pretty close.

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I think Fugger went light on the brass and lead components of his portfolios, but it was a very different time.

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Chris - Crazy that this and some of your other high profile interviews are not shared on X. Or maybe more in tune with marketing, first 10minutes shared on X along with a link to full interview here. Perhaps I am missing something and why I was never sucessful with my own business.

– N. Pence

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Righto! Forget building them here with scarce resources…we’ll just do it in space! :woman_facepalming:t2::roll_eyes::clown_face:

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Them: “That idea’s so crazy… it just might work.”

Me: “I’ve got an even crazier idea. Maybe it’ll work better.”

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I ran across Fugger a few years back when researching different “forever portfolios.”

I found this worth noting:

“ Jacob Fugger, a wealthy German merchant, said “Divide your fortune into four equal parts: stocks, real estate, bonds and gold coins. Be prepared to lose on one of them most of the time. During inflation, you will lose on bonds and win on gold and real estate. During deflation, you lose on real estate and win on bonds, while your stocks will see you through both periods, though in mixed fashion.”

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Always enjoy hearing Luke’s thoughts. Great guest Chris.

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Ditto :slight_smile:

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Excellent, as expected! I look forward to the next interview with Luke Gromen.

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China is undoubtedly subsidising the right way, in their productive capacity, in their energy output, in their education, ect.
They are not bound to ‘waste’ time and resources on safety, permissions, and that kind of stuff.
Another reason why the are so competitive is also the fact that they have 1.5 billion people to potentially employ and to have compete for the available jobs, and that they are paying slave-wages for the many unskilled workers, if they are paying at all.

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Can’t say I agree with you on this. They have overbuilt to the point of ghost cities. And a couple of decades ago a bunch of engineers decided on a policy that either gave away or killed their baby girls. Now they face a population dilemma. Maybe they should have had a biologist or two on the central committee when making that decision.

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Hi Permiegirl,
Don’t get me wrong, I am in no way in favour of the Chinese way, as the discussion was merely financial, they have gigantic advantages in that sense due to several of the points cited.

On the social/human side, I needs to been seen if it will survive for long, and its a complete disaster: indeed the consequences of the one child policy, the pollution and overproduction (even EV`s, hundreds of thousands of them left to rot), and the other well known marvels of life in the CCP, which on several aspects are the most hard core capitalism ever, as no social security, pension plan,public health care ect.

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Peter Zeihan has a recent interview where he spent 20 minutes outlining the population problem in China. (Sorry no link.)

TLDW: Chinese government overestimated population because Of incentives post Tienneman Square for local officials to exaggerate the number of births and students. But c2016(?) when those kids would start paying taxes, they noticed the vast gap. Then the trend continued.

The government admits this.

The question is just by how much. 100 million people? Maybe 500 million. Basically on the order of the US population was thought to exist for 20+ years but actually didn’t.

That could partly explain the ghost cities.

And pops the bubble on the idea that Chinese government is expert at long term planning. Maybe better than us, but certainly far from perfect. Far far from it.

And India has been the most populous nation for quite a while then.

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Chris - excellent discussion. One of my favorites of the year.

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It’s my understanding that the ghost cities are part of huge investment ponzis. The government encourage and later bullied people into investing their wealth into real estate either directly by owning a second home in the form of an apartment or by buying into large real estate investments schemes.

If people accumulated too much cash in the bank they would get a visit asking why they were not investing it.

One by one these schemes came due and they had to make another one with more shares in order to pay off the previous version’s shareholders. On and on it went then Evergreen ( or something similar) fell indicating how fragile it all is.

The apartments that people buy remain untouched, and not entirely finished. They loose value of the are completed as most people would want to select the materials and the kitchens etc for themselves.

My daughter’s Chinese college friends parents finally outfitted theirs so he could live in it because they saw things changing and decided that it’s value was for him to not pay rent after finishing school.

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For sure its a mess and guess work… They have a lot of invisible people as well, born beyond of the one child quota and who will never come out and pay taxes…

One thing’s for sure, you got a lil china town in every major city in the west :sweat_smile::rofl::rofl:

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Correct.

And what I posted is another aspect. Both are true.

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I do too. Thank you for having him on(although a lot of it was above my head). I think i need to look at my state 401k equivalent and get my ass in gear to move it..to gold and silver.

@chrismartenson…can we talk one day about farmland? I see genz and millenials locked out, but if we can buy them farmlands to farm…split the expenses and profits so that they can buy the farm… and encourage them to farm, a la joe salatin…id be happy to buy or help by the farmland that is going to be put up for sale in the next 10 years, and take my interest out in real food? Like many, im too old to do manual labor or deal with large cows…but our youngens need help to survive…and i need decent meat…but we need some kind of a matching system…

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