Mattias Desmet on Mass Formation

In this very special podcast, I interview Professor Mattias Desmet who discusses his work that connects past historical episodes of what is called “Mass Formation” (aka Mass Psychosis) and current events. We are on a dark path, fueled by dim actors who are pulling on our emotional strings to create fear and isolation in order to push their agenda of technocratic control of our lives, dreams of transhumanism, and using vaccine passports as a first step on a path to overt totalitarianism.

The risks are as grave as they come. Unless a few brave and courageous people are willing to stand up and say “I don’t agree!” history suggests that we will end up somewhere we deeply regret.

We’re on a dark path. One that historially has lead to human misery and mass atrocities. Eventually all totalitarian systems end in their own destruction.

My position is “it doesn’t have to be this way.” We can do better. Let’s avoid a future of atrocities and the complete destruction of our way of life. Unfortunately, those caught up in the Mass Formation event cannot see the larger or wider implications of their actions. They are very much like a hypnotized person with their field of view narrowed down to a singular threat or risk they have been told is the one-and-only threat they must conquer.

So all of their attention goes there. It focusses down. Nothing else matters. Eventually they transfer their anger and rage at that enemy – which is Covid today – upon a more relatable a nearby object. Perhaps their neighbor. Perhaps the unvaccinated. Perhaps immigrants who are stealing their jobs, or those who aren’t taking Climate Change seriously enough.

With that transference, the path has been laid to re-trod some of the most awful and inhumane periods of history. We’re there again and our own integrity demands that we do what we can to avoid going any further down that path.

In this episode Mattias tells us what can be done. We must never resort to violence. We must be courageous and speak up. We must hold everyone with compassion. But most of all, we must speak up.

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This is a companion discussion topic for the original entry at

As someone who supports people to heal from free floating anxiety that in my construct we call nameless dread, I deeply appreciate this interview. I feel grateful to Chris for raising awareness about the mental health struggles that are so prominent these days.
In the frame that I work in, people feel anxious when they experience a double bind or dilemma between what they know inside themselves is true for them and what they’ve been conditioned to believe. Anxiety arises in the context of relationship rather than something primitive inside the brain. Humans are wired to prioritize connection to each other over staying true to oneself. My colleagues and I often find that for many people underneath anxiety lies deep rage.
In my opinion the real epidemic we are facing around the world is one of Complex PTSD which generates anxiety and depression.
At the end of the day humans need to feel connected. That’s why I believe that one of the most important things each of us can do right now in the face of all of this insanity is to connect with others even in small ways.


Well said. Thank you for your insight


I have listened to numerous interviews with Mattias Desmet over the last few weeks concerning mass formation. Are there others that can speak to this as well? If so, it could expand credibility in this area.


The reason for the free-floating anxiety is because people haven’t internalized the notion that they are immortal souls.
The cure for that is to begin showing children videos of witness accounts of Near Death Experiences . Further, we should be paying Dr. Tom Campbell (Physics) a lot of money to get the message out to the children. Yes. Children will be able to grasp the idea much better than their ossified parents. They can see right through blindfolds. (Anyone want to challenge that observation?)
In a nutshell: We don’t have souls. We Are souls. We have bodies.
A missed opportunity in the video was the brief mention of Visual truth. If our vision is turned inward, we are focused on our Models of reality. When we are forced to look outside of our models, Our Gestalt (in the moment) mind is engaged. We cannot look inward and outward at the same time; the function of the corpus callosum will not permit it. It’s function is to inhibit communication between the two modes of thinking.
Therefore we must place before the hypnotised Visual Images. Lots of Visual Images, to pull them from their Models. This is why Graphs work. They are visual. I would that this had been explored more.
Ref: Dr. Tom Campbell, “My Big TOE”
Psychiatrist Dr. Iain McGilchrist, “The Master and His Emissary”
And of cause, the future lies in the Past.
The God of Saxons is the Wr-Alda and his emissary is our dear Freya. The Oera Linda. What we need is to develop the Office of Overmother again.
But this missive is already too long.



I’m wildly encouraged by the idea that there are 10-20% who see this for what it is. I sometimes joke that the problem is we’re all libertarian hippies and just want to be left alone. Right now, it is becoming critical that we come together and find each other.


I’ve seen several interviews with Mattias recently but this has been the best. Great volleys from Chris that I think had Mattias thinking even deeper on his own postulations. This theory of “free floating anxiety” brings me back to the concept of Zozobra that was included in the brilliant piece Chris wrote back in November 2020 about the interregnum.
Whenever I’m trying to wake someone up, I share excerpts from that post and always lead with how I am cautiously wandering through the interregnum and try to connect with people through a mutual experience of Zozobra. I even commissioned some label art and brew a beer called ZozoBräu now, as a way to encourage people to sit down and have a conversation. That’s not meant as a personal advertisement but just as a testament to the impact it had on me and how much it’s helped me have decent and meaningful conversations with the hypnotized. “Parousia” is a new word for me too


One thing that I see as different this time is that in all previous totalitarian collapse scenarios, people had a bright future to look forward to afterwards. They were in a time of increasing energy extraction which could fuel the emergence of vibrant rebirths of devastated societies over the following decades.
We now face the opposite. Today’s oil consumption in the western world is being artificially stimulated by the totalitarians and their financial system. Once that system collapses, oil production will never return to anywhere near what we have had at today’s peak. There will not be a bright future on the other side beckoning us to rebuild a vibrant new society. At least not at today’s population levels.
Of course, once could see this not only a problem, but as an opportunity to move beyond the mechanistic relationship with the world that fossil fuels have created. That is for sure true, but it will be little comfort to many, especially those that do not survive, and who are still stuck in their materialistic lives. Things will get much worse before they get better.


Great interview. To me, the mechanism described by Desmet is “true”. The point I had and have is this: Hannah Arendt fled Germany while the Germans were rounding up the opposition. Solzhenitsyn was send to the Gulag under Stalin, and came out of it after Stalin’s death. In other words, I think that there are no historical examples that the excesses of totalitarian regimes were botched before they occurred. Not before, and not after the 1930’s. This is a counterfactual fallacy. If the open approach will work this time.
I do believe however that speaking out is important as it will work as coagulants, or “centers of gravity” for the unhypnotized few. These will form the basis of the parallel structures that will be needed for the next 10 years (the typical time a totalitarian state devours itself). But make no mistake about it: the administration of some, if not all these “centers of gravity” will be used to round up as many as possible of us.
I’m more a follower of Hannah Arendt: hope in times of these is counterproductive. In the end, the new elite that will arise after the new dark age, will be those that acted. Acted on an individual level —Arendt fled Germany and by fleeing was able to play a role to help world to deal the with the atrocities perpetrated by the Nazis. Mandela kept his humanity, even after years of imprisonment. Solzhenitsyn kept writing, Havel became president after years of enduring suppression after a writing pieces in the right time. Whether or not their actions during their respective dark ages reduced the number of casualties is a matter of speculation at best, and a counterfactual fallacy at worst. But impact they had, untill now… Now the whole Western World forgot all these lessons, and is on the trajectory to new totalitarian age, as described by Desmet.
To conclude, great interview, I do sense a counterfactual fallacy. However, there are many great points made. As public health is used to impose a new totalitarian regime, a great crowd of dissenting medical/psychology professionals, I classify Chris as one of those dissidents, has taken their responsibility; it would be crazy for, say, a plumber to take this burden. The more people they can unhypnotize the better. Apart from these dissidents, new platforms have arisen to connect the unhypnotized, and to create a parallel financial system using crypto (for as long as TPTB do not fully crack down on it).
It is my belief however that the only thing that can stop this glide into a new totalitarian society is TPTB own hubris, and, as said before, dissenters will play a larger role after this “dark age”.
If the adverse reactions of the “vaccination patches” increases, and the efficacy decreases faster and faster then, combined with the voices of the dissidents, this could end soon. After the fourth booster or so. Remember, the dissenting voice of Havel did not cause the change, factory workers were already organizing discussions and rallies, but his, and other dissenters words strengthened the unhypnotized, and convinced them that the did see it correctly, oil on the fire indeed.


I do not agree: we to have a bright future to look out for. The thing is, we shouldn’t wait for it, but play an active role in making it happen.
“Don’t wait for the change, be the change”


One of the best ‘dot-connectors’ I have seen in the recent past.


What a live changing interview that was! In a previous post I wrote about surviving by being a grey man. I now realize I was having a dictatorship in mind.
I wrote Professor Desmet an email thanking him for his insights. We do must continue to speak out.


What a great combo in this episode! Worked well to enlighten my confirmation bias further. Thanks Chris & Mattias.
Breaking the spell seems to be the event to hope for.
Dissenters will be few, unless they are incentivised enough or independent enough to do so.
The big struggle dissenters have is to unite, believers are unified in their believe, dissenters are as plurified as can be. Good for guerrilla tactics but hardly effective to break the spell.
My hope is not for the common man to raise his voice and come to action, he has much to loose and less to gain (short term). He might lose it all long term but that is always less of a concern in our Western world of instant gratification monkeys.
A parallel society would be great, but takes too long to build and might be too idealistic given the diversity within the dissenters. Worldwide, enforced (QR) mandates will be implemented before these communities gain enough critical mass.
Crypto seem to be the false hope that incentivise the early adopters with free gains until it pops (legislative pressure is mounting). I would not bet on the intrinsic support of the big wallets here (a few really rich in fiat have taken massive positions and hold the voting power in especially bitcoin). I do support it by have a stake as well, but it’s less decentralized power as I had hoped. I despise all systems with too large haves where there are too many not-haves. It ‘s solidified, dead energy most of the time.
So what do I hope for? Either a massive shocking event, indeed a big trauma to replace the current induced threat of a “deadly” virus in an inappropriate health system. Or a sudden snap back to sanity by increasingly undeniable adverse effects to surface (not likely) or the increasing immunity of mass natural infection (likely).
Seen this way omicron might indeed be a welcome guest to the “party”.


Great interview! I’ve been watching your show all year, thanks so much for the great content.
My first comment here in the forum:
Perhaps the following analysis can explain why the technocrats in government “believe so deeply” in their ideology, i.e. the remedy that they are prescribing.

  1. Fauci funded EcoHealth who created virus at WIV.
  2. Since the virus was not “naturally occurring” the inner circle of scientists who were involved in creating it (led by Fauci) had deep feelings both of terror and of guilt when the monster got out of the lab and was unleashed into the world.
  3. The panic, terror, and guilt that this small set of people felt very deeply – which was not necessarily displayed in their public speech as they didn’t want to start a panic – but which was clearly displayed through their policy responses … this was the gestalt of the ideology that then became the nucleus of the Western policy reaction.
  4. Since WWII all Western countries look to U.S. as “the lead” in formulating policy, so it’s not surprise that the rest of the Western World followed the U.S. policy response.
    In summary: Our societal psychosis described by Mattias Desmett has been shaped by the leaders of the technocracy who evolved their response and tone out of the leadership of the core group of scientists and technocrats who were “in the know” and whose initial panic drove the wider policy response within the U.S., which emanated across the West, and ultimately sparked our Western societal psychosis.
    How did it happen? It is because Dr. Fauci funded creation of the virus, and was head of the public health agency, that he was also able to very quickly become the loudest and most credible voice in the room, he was speaking emotionally with enormous conviction due to his guilt/panic, he was immediately able to generate “a plan” on what to do, he had the resources in the agency to drive the “plan” into action … while everyone else was totally confused about what we were dealing with and uncertain on what to do … of course, Fauci knew exactly what he was dealing with & had deep conviction in the white’s of his eyes… of course, he created the damn virus in the first place!
    Does this make sense?
    One data point that supports this theory: very early on during mid-March 2021 before the stock market had crashed, several weeks before Dr. Fauci had become a recognized public spokesperson, I remember Jim Cramer saying on his show “this virus could be something to watch, and when we have a real public health emergency, we need to have an expert to look to… and the expert who is the smartest person who I can possibly find in the United States health establishment is Dr. Fauci, and until he tells us this virus is past, we should be worried. Let’s listen to Fauci closely over the next few weeks.”
    I wonder who told Jim Cramer that “Fauci is the smartest person in the U.S. Health Establishment?” How did that narrative get started? Historians need to research this closely to understand how this narrative came about. Why did we all start listening to the little man?
    My theory in a nutshell: Ultimately it was Fauci’s fear, panic, guilt, and speed to react with supreme conviction… and eventually also it was the power and ego that he was given as he was turned into a rockstar by the media to keep perpetuating “the plan” … this was the nucleus of the ideology and the Western social psychosis!!!

Just suggesting how it can be improved. These automatic speech-to-text software conversions introduce errors.


Quality first post.


Most of your points resonate with me, terminator.
I’m curious though as to why you think parallel structures will take too long or be ineffective due to the diversity of dissenters. It’s my thought that the parallel structures most needed are fast off the mark, especially given that many have the luxury of extra time, thanks to v-mandates.
Food = gardens, preserving, home brewing, baking = single growing season ( granted, ours is just starting in the southern hemisphere, while northern folks are heading into winter) (everyone from Buddhist to Bogan needs to eat)
Social/educational structures = dinner parties and homeschooling…do it and it’s done ( perhaps plurality might be an issue here?)
Alt med: slightly more involved, but give it a year. ( again, this is a need irrespective of philosophical leanings)
Alt communication networks: not my thing, so I won’t try and guess what is needed there. But again, plurality is no barrier.
Working on these things at the moment, and interested in your perspective…


Chances of a person under the spell of Mass Formation Psychosis listening to and understanding this interview are near zero.
This is not a criticism, but a fact that directs the necessary actions for each individual who wants to work toward a solution…Mattias said we can do two things…Continue to speak out and use non-violent resistance. Chris of course should continue to speak out and educate his listener base …but think of the potential power of his listener base with each person making one personal contact each day.
When DaveDD said ;

It would be crazy for, say, a plumber to take this burden
I think just the opposite….The plumber gains the trust and respect of his client by fixing a faucet or whatever and that opens the door of communication between the two individuals. There is a moment in polite society when the transaction is finished, that a kind word or a thought can be shared between two strangers. It is in those short moments and encounters that a seed of truth can be planted. My goal is to use every random encounter to plant a seed. I literally have to go today and install a faucet for a client. Maybe I can have a positive moment with her?

Hi Oliveoilguy,
Actually, I do agree with you. The context of my statement is about medical dissenters adressing medical, sciency issues.
All other unhypnotized have their own responsibility to act, each within their own network , and related to their own field of expertise. I do not think that, say, a heardresser, is able to convince politicians, and doubting scientists, simply because they talk a different language, imo they are simply arrogant and too fixed in their ideas.
However, I do not underestimate the power of hairdressers, plumbers etc etc. In the example of Havel, the actual resistance started on the factory floor, that is, it started with “normal” people that had enough of the crazyness, Havel et al “just” gave new words to it. Mandela didn’t free himself, he was freed due to the relentless work of “normal” people who couldn’t bear in anymore. Martin Luther King did not end segragation on public buses on his own, it needed a “normal” person like Rosa Parks to stand up. She was the right person, doing the right thing at the right moment in time.
So, again, the statement I made is in the context of medical dissenters. I personally do not wait for a better world, I’m trying to play an active role in it within my own community and within my own two fields of expertise, just like you.