Occupy Wall Street: What’s Really Going On

[grover]

[quote=rhare]I think it may be even scarier why their hasn’t been prosecutions.  I think most of our congressman do not understand money, they believe what the Fed and BLS tell them.  They don’t question them since they are the experts.  I think many just think this was an accident that started out as a housing bubble.  I mean you have the Fed and all the Keynesian economists telling everyone that this was not predictable.  You have a congress that has grown up and served in an era that housing prices never fell, that the US has always been able to borrow without question, etc.
It’s really worrisome that I think most of our citizens, elected officials, corporate leaders, and their advisers just don’t have a clue.  I think many of the people who we consider committing fraud don’t believe they did anything wrong - yes they made lots of money, but they were just doing what everyone else was doing.  No one saw it as their place to question things, to dig a bit and figure out if what was going on was creating huge risks.  We basically have a system that allows individuals at all levels to distribute risk to a larger group.  Very few people have direct financial risk.  That includes the majority of citizens who are "protected" by all kinds of government programs which creates apathy to risk.  No need to worry, no need to be concerned, the government is looking out for me (FDIC, PBGC, SEC, FDA).  So virtually no one cares until it’s too late…
I can personally say, until about 4 years ago, I was one of the apathetic.  I lived my life, things were good, no worries.  You see stupid crap being done by politicians but it really didn’t have much of an effect on everyday life.  The debt was just some number that people talked about once in a while.  I had never thought about money very much, even while working in the financial industry.  I knew how it moved, I understood financial transactions but not the deep down understanding of what the dollar really was.  
[/quote]
rhare,
I’ve been thinking about your post off and on for a couple of days. Your words ring true. We have a culture that has been pacified and protected from the evils of the unknown. The protection racket has continually increased its share of the economic pie. Everyone has been dumbed down to put up with it. It isn’t good.
This verse from "God Bless The Child" keeps popping up in my head.

And rich relations May give you A crust of bread and such You can help yourself But don't take too much Read more: http://artists.letssingit.com/blood-sweat-and-tears-lyrics-god-bless-the-child-fggqnct#ixzz1baLPMj9b LetsSingIt - Your favorite Music Community

Grover

[frobn]

[quote=ao]
I’m also surprised that you are so determined to emphasize the differences and divisions between the OWS members, Tea Party members, Libertarians, etc. rather than encourage the common ground they are finding in opposing TPTB.  Why would you want to create fissures in a movement that is bringing previously disparate groups in the direction of cooperation and unity and away from conflict and strife?  That’s the strategy one would expect from the far left or the far right.  [/quote] The common ground is becoming more and more evident everyday. I seen it yesterday at occupyStPete when a libertarian spoke for several minutes and was well received. 
For tea party and Occupy Wall Street movements, some common ground

Although many organizers of the two populist efforts view their counterparts from the other end of the spectrum as misguided or even evil, attitudes among the rank and file of the tea party and Occupy Wall Street are often much more accepting and flexible. They start out with different views about the role of government, but in interviews and online discussions they repeatedly share many of the same frustrations, as well as a classically American passion for fixing the system.

The organizers of the two movements also have a lot common--their childish egos that make them reject the notion the rank and file can think for themselves. Some of which we are withnessing here.

[nickbert]

DK-
Setting aside your sarcasm and provocative tone, let’s just examine the evidence to support your claim that Ron Paul is the new favored son of the right wing and Rush Limbaugh, and through Ron Paul are planning to co-opt the OWS movement. 

On one hand we have your evidence: 1) Ron Paul and Rush are both part of the Republican Party, and 2) Rush Limbaugh gave one (backhanded) compliment to Ron Paul regarding his budget plan. 

On the other hand here’s the competing evidence: 1) A history of very negative statements by Rush towards Ron Paul, 2) a repeated pattern displaying a relative shortage of MSM coverage (at both ends of the MSM spectrum) of Ron Paul’s campaigns, 3) repeated ridicule and dismissal (@ 7:20 in video) of him and his campaigns by MSM (again both ends of the spectrum) when they do cover him, 4) consistently and strongly opposed TARP and any government bailouts of failing banks and institutions, and 5) consistently and strongly opposes the oversized defense spending that is so generous to the defense industry. 

This is the mainstream right wing’s (or ruling elite’s) new golden boy?!?  I’m sorry, but your evidence to support your theory is far outweighed by the evidence to the contrary.  This is not to say it’s impossible; only that the currently available evidence points to it being a very low likelihood.  Either you did not know any of these things before (unlikely, given the time you spend here in this "fan-club of Ron Paul-ism" as you put it), or your belief system compels you to ignore them to support a preconceived conclusion (more likely).  You are entitled to your opinion yes, but to be indignant at being challenged when you make a provocative conclusive statement of that opinion citing only weak evidence?  That is ridiculous… as is your martyr / persecuted-minority-opinion schtick in your last two posts.  And for someone who in the past resented being mischaracterized as a socialist or communist, one would think you’d be more considerate or careful about mischaracterizing the positions or intents of others, be they Ron Paul or anyone else.

I don’t want you to be my enemy, but you seem intent on making me and others who want a smaller government (not zero government) into an enemy.  Can you really afford to do that?  (edit: by this I mean we all have enough powerful enemies and interests working against us to afford to add more. Why make a hard job harder?)

• Nickbert

[frobn]

Many threads seem to get hijcaked by a few people that want feed their egos by hashing out their bias and prejudices over their political ideologies but for those who want to get back on the topic "Occupy Wall Street: What’s Really Going On" you can get a feel for the dialog and process of the NY General Assembly by following the Live tweeting here…

[damnthematrix]

Weekend funnies
http://economicedge.blogspot.com/2011/10/weekend-funnies_22.html

[damnthematrix]

Five Candidates for the Corporate Death Penalty

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Published on Thursday, October 20, 2011 by Single Payer Action

Five Candidates for the Corporate Death Penalty

by Russell Mokhiber

One of the most famous signs to come out of Occupy Wall Street stated simply: “I will believe corporations are people when Texas executes one.”

That was sort of a joke.

But in fact, for the benefit of real live human beings, some corporations ought to be executed.

My guess is that most of the occupiers at Wall Street would be in favor of the corporate death penalty.

Some – like Richard Grossman – would criminalize the corporate form.

But if you want to take the incremental approach, here’s my list of five candidates for the corporate death penalty.

Health insurance corporations. Most western industrialized countries – with the exception of the USA – already have this death penalty in place. In those countries, corporations are not allowed to sell primary private health insurance. Instead, there is a public single payer – everybody in, nobody out. Under this death penalty proposal corporations like Aetna, CIGNA, UnitedHealth, and Wellpoint would be put out of business. And with a public single payer to replace them, we’d save billions of dollars and the lives of more than 45,000 Americans who die every year from lack of health insurance.

Nuclear power corporations. Do we really need a Fukushima here in the United States? We do not. Without government loan guarantees and federal limits on nuclear liability, the industry would be put out of business. So, we could simply cut the federal subsidy and that would be the end of it. And we should. A wide range of safer, cleaner energy options is available to replace the energy currently being generated by unsafe nuclear power.

Giant Banks. Wells Fargo. Citibank. Bank of America. JP Morgan Chase. Morgan Stanley. Goldman Sachs. They should be executed – broken up and replaced by smaller banks. Break up the big banks. And impose a hard cap on their size. No bank should have assets of more than four percent of GDP. There is support across the political spectrum for this proposal. During the debate over financial reform, the measure garnered 33 votes in the Senate – it was called the Brown-Kaufman amendment.

Fracking corporations. Hydraulic fracturing – fracking – is wrecking havoc in the northeastern part of the United States. Any corporation engaged in fracking behavior that threatens drinking water supplies ought to be put out of business. Anti-fracking activists in New York have already drafted legislation that would criminalize fracking corporations.

Corporate criminal recidivists. Legislatures should adopt provisions to strip corporations of their charters for serious corporate violations or for recidivist behavior. Some states already have such provisions, although they are rarely invoked.

Some corporations have been put to death for wrongful behavior, but they have been mostly smaller companies.

In 1983, the Attorney General of Virginia asked the state’s corporation commission to dissolve a book company convicted of possessing obscene films.

But when it comes to the serious crimes that big corporations engage in – pollution, corruption, fraud, threatening the lives of real Americans – the death penalty is off the table.

If we are serious about corporate crime, the death penalty is a deterrent that will work.

[damnthematrix]

Confidence in democracy on the slide
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-10-25/democracy-satisfaction-slips-to-lowest-level-in-decade/3599872
A national study has found that Australians’ satisfaction with democracy has dipped to its lowest level since 1998.
Australian National University research on attitudes to government and public services found a growing number of Australians are concerned about the quality of government.
While satisfaction with democracy in Australia remains high by international standards, it is lower in 2010 and 2011 than in the earlier part of the decade.
Fewer people are satisfied with the direction in which the country is headed and there are far more people mentioning "better government" as the main problem facing Australia.
But ANU Professor John Wanna says neither side of politics is particularly to blame.
"The government, when they’re making announcements that seemingly are on the run, changing their mind, going backtracking, not having consulted, I think that leads a lot of people to say ‘does everybody know what’s going on?’.
"I don’t think automatically that means people think the Opposition know what’s going on, so I’m not making a partisan comment on that, but I think there’s a general feeling that there’s a malaise across the political system that no-one seems to have the answers."
Respondents wanting a "better government" increased from 9 per cent to 18 per cent since the previous poll.
Professor Wanna describes the minority Federal Government as embattled.
"I think that finding about better governments really indicates a huge communication problem," he said.
"It may be to do with that we’ve gone through a period of fairly intense political adversarialism in a context of minority government.
"Maybe that’s an issue about mixed messages coming from governments, or even backflips."
The poll also shows that the economy remains the number one issue for voters, who are growing increasingly concerned about the quality and direction of the Federal Government.

[damnthematrix]

[Moderator’s note: DTM, this really is name-calling, as another user has observed.  The chart above is effective at making an impact statement, but there is a big difference between impact statements vs. having a discussion.  In a real discussion, a graphic like this has no place.  Characterizing all the members of a particular group or movement is bound to be (a) inaccurate, and (b) divisive.  It is more like propaganda, advertising, or verbal cheerleading.  It has no place in a dialogue where the aim should be to discuss and find common ground, not throw stones at each other.]

[nickbert]

And the needless "us vs them" mentality continues along its merry way, dividing those who should work together…- Nickbert

[frobn]

Occupy Sydney Day 8 – Steve Keen on Economists and Debt Crises

A quick tutorial from Steve Keen at OccupySydney, via @Ian_Fraser.

[Former_User]

As Nickbert said, we need to work together and DTM? your  post was incredidibly insulting and just plain fantasies about who and what Tea Party members are.
DTM: I do not recognize my fellow tea partiers in your list of so-called traits you posted, and find your insinuations both unnecessary and demeaning. You will notice that I’ve not said demeaning things about your side. OWS & Tea Party have a common cause: resist the banksters, resist banks that are highly favored by corrupt Government officials (especially government officials who are supposed to enforce regulations and proscute fraud.) We need to deal with a common enemy, and instead you make what amount to personal attacks on people of good conscience. Your chart contains a good deal of name calling.

Is the Tea party reallly, as you characterize it, "astroturf"? You just called people of good conscience who are trying for real solutions fakes - including me. I’m not calling your support for different solutions "astroturf", even though I could cite various organizations that are helping OWS. I’d appreciate the same courtesy.

I’ve never seen a single Tea Partier mock the sick and the poor. If they did, they would be roundly criticized.

As for the list of insulting monikers–"anti-union, anti-poor, racist, bigoted, xenophobic…showing up with assalut rifles…facsism"–I am frankly dissapointed in you. I’m not even upset: You have to think that a person might be right to have a criticsm sting. Speaking for myself and all the Tea Partiers I personnaly know, we are not racist or anti-poor unless you cite our opposition to people of any race being perpetually stuck in a cycle of poverty. And I can show you videos of us being assalted while the police looked the other way, PLUS we feel the press ignores us, too, so you are not alone in that regard.

Name callling shuts down debate, and Demonizing the Tea Party robs you of important allies (see the ven diagram where the Tea Party’s concerns overlap with OWS protestors concerns - that large corporations/banks should not get bailouts and special treatment from big government.)

Stick to facts. I prefer facts to name calling, don’t you? But if  I asked you for your facts to back up that henious chart, I’d want sources. Please understand, however, that, I may distrust many of your news sources the same way you distrust Fox news, so that may not help us much. Maybe we should just agree to not shut down debate cavaellierly by demonizing the opposition. The banksters would love it if we fell to internal squabbling.

[frobn]

@safewrite

Name callling shuts down debate, and Demonizing the Tea Party robs you of important allies (see the ven diagram where the Tea Party’s concerns overlap with OWS protestors concerns - that large corporations/banks should not get bailouts and special treatment from big government.)Stick to facts. I prefer facts to name calling, don’t you? But if  I asked you for your facts to back up that henious chart, I’d want sources. …Maybe we should just agree to not shut down debate cavaellierly by demonizing the opposition. The banksters would love it if we fell to internal squabbling.

Well said. Last night there was a Tea Party member in attendance at an occupyStPete work group. He was quite helpful with suggestions drawn from his experiences as a Tea Party organizer.
Venn diagrams - You can respect each other’s opinions without having to agree with everything from either side.

[no_fiat]

 I have to agree with the comparison chart  Damnthematrix  has posted. The facts are facts!

[goes211]

Exactly how many Tea Party events have you attended and witnessed these negative attributes?  Oh that’s right, you live 8,000 miles from the nearest event and get all your news from one sided sources, so I am sure that makes you qualified to leave devisive comments.
The ironic thing is I am sure you would find it unfair for some Fox News zombie to make disparaging comments about an OWS event which neither of you have attended.   Mr Pot I would like you to meet Mr Kettle.

[thc0655]

Prosecute the fraud!  Prosecute the fraud!  Prosecute the fraud!  Prosecute the fraud!  Prosecute the fraud!

[poet]

Another graphic to add. Makes some good points, too.
Poet

[heffe]

[quote=Poet]Another graphic to add. Makes some good points, too.
Poet
[/quote]
I have a great idea, lets all keep perpetuating outdated systems, of which will never address the both, ill-formed and ill-informed hypothesis, of monetary economics!!! 
No one here wants to consider alternatives!!! Lets all jump on the ignorance band wagon and keep on arguing, while completely ignoring the root causes of our problems!!!
Sure!! Reform will do it!! SURE!!! Prosecuting the fraud will do it!! Of course all that stuff will work because its obviously been working huh?
No need to fully revise our assumptions and/or attachements because obviously that has nothing to do with it!!! Keep on with the monetary economic bandwagon that future generations will eventually consider to be ‘the most bizarre thought delusion in all human history’.
Gotta love these times and the prevailing amounts of critical thinking established within the populous mindset, beautiful!

[poet]

HeffeI like to consider myself to be a pragmatic idealist. And I feel for ya, because I have so many idealistic dreams that I would love to see come to fruition on earth. Unfortunately, I am just a small fish in a very large pond. The reality everyone operates under may be an artificial construct, but it is real and the feedback mechanisms are still in relative working order.
It is very unlikely that any new system you want to operate under or discuss would ever be implemented outside of a small commune of under 10 people. Maybe with charismatic leadership, it may be grow to 50 or 100. With coercion and authoritarian tactics, it may grow to a thousand or so. Add in religion and constant indoctrination, and you can definitely get to Scientology-size.
So, let’s focus on what we CAN do to influence the existing reality, alright? Which includes acknowledging that we all operate under that reality. Do you have followers who can join forces with you, or are you (like most of us) still stuck with negotiating with others (or are dependent upon others) in society just to make some room in the reality to accomodate your own existence? Have you been able to convince anyone here in these forums to follow your lead yet?
Poet

@heffe

No one here wants to consider alternatives!!! Lets all jump on the ignorance band wagon and keep on arguing, while completely ignoring the root causes of our problems!!!

[damnthematrix]

[quote=safewrite]
As Nickbert said, we need to work together and DTM? your  post was incredidibly insulting and just plain fantasies about who and what Tea Party members are.
DTM: I do not recognize my fellow tea partiers in your list of so-called traits you posted, and find your insinuations both unnecessary and demeaning.[/quote]
I didn’t insinuate anything.  I received this and believe it to be from OWS.  I never said I agreed with any of it.  I can’t even vote in your elections, I’m merely an interested bystander…
Mike

[Former_User]

Heffe wrote:

No one here wants to consider alternatives!!! Lets all jump on the ignorance band wagon and keep on arguing, while completely ignoring the root causes of our problems!!!

Give it a rest.