Mike, Samuel -
Maybe I should have picked a less controversial example than a religious figure. The point of the statement was that making a better world often involves small steps and modest improvements rather than grand solutions, and we shouldn’t refrain from taking a positive action simply because it won’t fix everything. Didn’t Chris say something to the effect of "any action you take will be insufficient, but it’s still very important to do it…"
House Minority Leader pictured standing, far right, speaks while colleagues play solitaire Monday night as the House convened to vote on a new budget. (AP) The guy sitting in the row in front of these two....he's on Facebook, and the guy behind Hennessy is checking out the baseball scores. These are the folks that couldn't get the budget out by Oct. 1, and are about to control your health care, cap and trade, and the list goes on and on.
Should we buy them larger screen computers - or -a ticket home, permanently? This is one of their3-DAY WORK WEEKS that we all pay for (salary is about $179,000 per year).
This is another gentlemen allegedly shot in the face with a rubber bullet (his injury is above his right eye, while the injury to Scott Olsen appears to be on the left side of his face):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZLyUK0t0vQ&feature=player_embeddedAnd a policeman threw a flash grenade into a crowd trying to help an injured protesterhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZLyUK0t0vQ&feature=player_embedded
Some are calling this the "new Kent State".
And protesters from Tahrir Square, Egypt, say this is what it looked like there.
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/nation_world/20111027_Occupy_s_discordant_turn.html?ref=more-like-this
It’s a shame. These are 1960′s tactics in the year 2011! There are much better nonviolent tactics to be used that could actually accomplish something, but a small group wants to rumble like their grandparents did. If you want to fight with the police instead of changing our society, go right ahead. But the police will fight back when attacked and when obeying lawful orders to enforce standing laws. In the meantime the actual culprits (who are not the police) are smiling smugly as they watch a movement that could legitimately threaten them go off the tracks and into the weeds. I’m sure Blankfein and Dimon love the idea that the movement is fighting for the right to camp on public property in the middle of cities the banksters have hollowed out. Prosecute the fraud! Prosecute the fraud! Prosecute the fraud! Pick some tactics to push THAT demand. Is the right to camp in public spaces the main "right" the movement is willing to shed blood for? What’s next – using explosives on American civilians to protest the use of explosives on civilians in Afghanistan? Where’s Bill Ayers when the movement needs him?
[quote=thc0655]Occupy's discordant turn
It’s a shame. These are 1960′s tactics in the year 2011! There are much better nonviolent tactics to be used that could actually accomplish something, but a small group wants to rumble like their grandparents did. If you want to fight with the police instead of changing our society, go right ahead. But the police will fight back when attacked and when obeying lawful orders to enforce standing laws. In the meantime the actual culprits (who are not the police) are smiling smugly as they watch a movement that could legitimately threaten them go off the tracks and into the weeds. I’m sure Blankfein and Dimon love the idea that the movement is fighting for the right to camp on public property in the middle of cities the banksters have hollowed out. Prosecute the fraud! Prosecute the fraud! Prosecute the fraud! Pick some tactics to push THAT demand. Is the right to camp in public spaces the main "right" the movement is willing to shed blood for? What’s next – using explosives on American civilians to protest the use of explosives on civilians in Afghanistan? Where’s Bill Ayers when the movement needs him?[/quote]
The videos posted above are open to interpretation but it appears that it is the police who are raising the stakes. Yes, there are some miscreants in the occupy movement but isn’t it the job of the police and aren’t they trained to diffuse such situations instead of inflaming them? The linked article barely mentions Scott Olsen.
Among demonstrators injured was Scott Olsen, 24, a Marine veteran who served two tours in Iraq. A hospital spokesman said Olsen was in critical condition.Where's the outrage? I guess too many of us think its reasonable to shoot rubber bullets, that can be lethal, into a mostly non-violent demonstration even if collateral damage is an Iraqi war veteran. I agree we should prosecute the fraud but then that would hurt the main constituents of both parties--poor banks and financial elites who are doing god's work. IMHO I think the powers to be will push the occupy protests to splinter into several branches some of which will take the course of a "velvet revolution" and others will be violent.
[quote=frobn]Where’s the outrage? I guess too many of us think its reasonable to shoot rubber bullets, that can be lethal, into a mostly non-violent demonstration even if collateral damage is an Iraqi war veteran.
[/quote]
A mostly non-violent demostration implies a partially violent one. You must realize that these movements will largely be defined by their outliers, at least within the MSM. What I find ironic is many OWS supporters (including key people like Chris Hedges) are very comfortable calling the Tea Party movement racist/retrograde and yet they are blind to the bad elements within the movement that they support.
If the occupy movement really wants to gain traction it will need to find common ground with people from all ranges of the political spectrum. Otherwise TPTB will smile, as it is defined by its outliers and attacked by those that should be its natural allies.
[quote=frobn]And a policeman threw a flash grenade into a crowd trying to help an injured protesterhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZLyUK0t0vQ&feature=player_embedded
[/quote]
Frobn
Thanks for posting this damning video of police misbehavior. It is good that ordinary people can now report actual events to the world without the mainstream media.
Travlin
[quote=Travlin]Frobn
Thanks for posting this damning video of police misbehavior. It is good that ordinary people can now report actual events to the world without the mainstream media.
Travlin
[/quote]
Frobn,
I don’t know how I missed that second video. If there is any justice at all left in the MSM, this will be a major story on all the news channels, showing the criminal behavior of our friendly neighborhood stormtroopers.
Thanks for posting.
Travlin: "It is good that ordinary people can now report actual events to the world without the mainstream media."
Agreed, the revolution may not be televised ™, but it’s sure as hell going to be tweeted / youtubed …
To invert Orwell…
"little brother is watching YOU"
[quote=goes211][quote=frobn]
Where’s the outrage? I guess too many of us think its reasonable to shoot rubber bullets, that can be lethal, into a mostly non-violent demonstration even if collateral damage is an Iraqi war veteran.
[/quote]
A mostly non-violent demostration implies a partially violent one. You must realize that these movements will largely be defined by their outliers, at least within the MSM. What I find ironic is many OWS supporters (including key people like Chris Hedges) are very comfortable calling the Tea Party movement racist/retrograde and yet they are blind to the bad elements within the movement that they support.
If the occupy movement really wants to gain traction it will need to find common ground with people from all ranges of the political spectrum. Otherwise TPTB will smile, as it is defined by its outliers and attacked by those that should be its natural allies.[/quote]
I am afraid you are right. There are many who are already convinced that MSM, mainstream media along with the police will force violence at the bequest of their masters. I think Amy Goodman hat it right when she said, "mainstream media is not mainstream any longer." I like plato1965’s invert of Orwell below, "little brother is watching YOU"
BTW, if you want to give Oakland’s Town Hall a piece of your mind, as I did last night, you can do so directly from their City website; See the contact link here;
http://www2.oaklandnet.com/Government/o/Mayor/a/ContactUs/index.htm
I know it’s not much… but my own protest was to write saying that although I visit the Bay area often as a high tech industry professional… and I used my Corp. ID just to drive that home… that I will not be setting foot in Oakland for any activities because of the unconstitutional thuggery practiced by their police.
Also, Denninger has been doing a great job covering this… he really seethes as I do; http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=196618
[quote=Poet]Once again, it takes an entertainment magazine like Rolling Stone and an investigative journalist like Matt Taibbi to point out what the regular news agencies, networks, and talking heads turn a blind eye to…
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/owss-beef-wall-street-isnt-winning-its-cheating-20111025
The rest of the article really hits home. You’ll want to read this and pass it along to your friends and family.
Poet
[/quote]
Excellent artical, Poet; thanks for sharing! Here’s another good article that came out this week that is worth a read:
The Class War Has Begun
And the very classlessness of our society makes the conflict more volatile, not less.
http://nymag.com/news/frank-rich/class-war-2011-10/index1.html
After seeing that video I posted about RP’s defense policy, a friend of mine pointed out:
Another interesting and informative TED Talk. This one by Richard Wilkinson.
Richard Wilkinson: How Economic Inequality Harms Societies
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ7LzE3u7Bw
Link to above video (to share, or if the print is too fuzzy):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ7LzE3u7Bw
Link to same video (different player) at the TED site:
http://www.ted.com/talks/richard_wilkinson.html
Links to other articles that point to location, race, and income for life expectancy:
Unnatural Causes …Is Inequality Making Us Sick? (PDF)
"We did a study comparing health – illness; but not mortality; self-reported illness - and biological markers of illness, in Americans and British of age 50 to 65. And what we found in both societies, in England and in the United States, was the social gradient. The lower you were, the more illness. But strikingly, what we found was, the Americans had more illness than the English, even in the top third of the distribution measured on income or education. The better off Americans had more illness than the better-off English. And in fact, so high was the illness level that the better-off Americans had nearly as much illness as the worst-off English. So it’s something that’s affecting the whole of society. And if you look at the U.S. as a whole, the U.S. is the second richest country in the world after Luxembourg, in terms of income. The U.S. ranks 29th in life expectancy. All this wealth is maldistributed. There are huge inequalities in this society, and I think that’s in part why the U.S. as a whole has relatively poor health amongst the rich countries, and why even the better-off people are suffering."
http://www.unnaturalcauses.org/assets/uploads/file/MichaelMarmot.pdf
Does ZIP Code Affect Your Life Span?
"Consider: The longest-living whites weren’t the relatively wealthy, which Murray calls ‘Middle America.’ They’re edged out by low-income residents of the rural Northern Plains states, where the men tend to reach age 76 and the women 82. Yet low-income whites in Appalachia and the Mississippi Valley die four years sooner than their Northern neighbors. He cites American Indians as another example. Those who don’t live on or near reservations in the West have life expectancies similar to whites’."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/09/11/health/main1999188.shtml
Poet
Let’s look at that list of controversial Ron Paul positions.
Is this scary because the UN has been such a wonderful success? The UN is nothing but a bureaucratic Cluster F**K. If you think the world is bad now, imagine it being run by unelected bureaucrats like Ban Ki-moon or Kofi Annan. Oil for food corruption on a global scale. I will pass.
He advocates withdrawal from the United Nations,
He endorses increased border security and opposes welfare for illegal aliensAre you saying a country should not defend its borders? If so then what exactly is a country good for? You also think giving illegal aliens welfare is a good idea. I think you are clearly in the minority.
he voted for the Secure Fence Act of 2006.If you don't think politicians should defend their countries borders, what exactly should they do other than give away benefits to those that are here illegally?
Paul has stated that "Israel is our close friend" and that it is not the place of the United States to "dictate how Israel runs her affairs".What should he say to make you happy? Israel is an enemy but we have the right to dictate how she runs her affairs? He also advocates immediate elimination of all foreign aide which would mean that Israel would lose billions in US subsidies. What is truly funny is that you seem to know nothing about the history of Ron Paul and pro-Israel factions within the US. Lets just say it's pretty rare that Ron Paul is accused of being pro-Israel. The Neo-cons actually go Ape-Sh*t about this.
Paul is a proponent of Austrian school economics;So is Mish. Maybe you better let Chris know that the Austrians are not wanted around here so he can take care of it.
He regularly votes against almost all proposals for new government spending, initiatives, or taxes;Because clearly what we need is more new government spending, initiatives, taxes....
He has pledged never to raise taxesProbably not a keepable promise but I like his sediment. I think he is specifically refering to income taxes which he would like to completely eliminate.
He endorses eliminating most federal government agenciesKey word is federal. If we ammend the consitution so that the federal government has a role in these agencies I am sure he is open to keeping them. Until then, why is the government doing things that it is not authorized to do?
Paul endorses constitutional rights, such as the right to keep and bear arms,I guess you would rather have someone that did not believe in constitutional rights. Or maybe they should only support the constitutional rights that you like. Of course if they are allowed to pick and choose which rights to support, what is the point of having them in the first place?
Paul terms himself "strongly pro-life", "an unshakable foe of abortion",As an obstetrician that has delivered more that 4,000 babies, I think I will value his opinion more than most.
Paul pushes to eliminate federal involvement with and management of health care,Why is it when one of my sisters was born my mother's bill for delivery and 3 days in a hospital was $600. That was in the 1960's. Strange that since the government has gotten more involved and the industry more regulated, the costs have gone up by 1000's%. I am sure that there is no connection.
Paul was critical of the Civil Rights Act of 1964,Paul is only critical of one part. That was that private property owners were forced to change behavior. It is not that he wants racist behavior to continue, it is just that he believes that property owners have the right to use their property as they choose. This should not be that hard for liberals to understand. It is much like how the right to free speech is really a guarantee of unpopular speech by people like neo-nazis or radical islamists as long as they are not advocating violence. Why would you need to guarantee speech that is popular? If these are the best criticisms of Ron Paul, I think he should have far more supporters than he does currently. Especially because although he would like to eliminate most entitlements because he thinks they are unconstitutional, he has said that it would not be a high priority because he does not believe that a people that have been raised to be dependent on big government, are ready to fend for themselves. He proposes massive cuts to the millitary industrial complex so that money can be used to wean the people off government dependency in the long term.
The hard-right conservatives who dominate the Republican Party claim to despise the redistribution of wealth, but secretly they love it — as long as the process involves depriving the poor and middle class to benefit the rich, not the other way aroundThat is precisely what has been happening, as a jaw-dropping new report by the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office demonstrates. Three decades of trickle-down economic theory, see-no-evil deregulation and tax-cutting fervor have led to massive redistribution. Another word for what’s been happening might be theft.
The gist of the CBO study, titled “Trends in the Distribution of Household Income Between 1979 and 2007,” is that while we’ve become wealthier overall, these new riches have largely bypassed many Americans and instead flowed mostly to the affluent. Perhaps my memory is faulty, but I don’t remember voting to turn the United States into a nation starkly divided between haves and have-nots. Yet that’s where we’ve been led.…the real issue is what kind of nation we want to be. Thomas Jefferson’s “All men are created equal” is properly understood as calling for equality of opportunity, not equality of outcomes. But the more we become a nation of rich and poor, the less we can pretend to be offering the same opportunities to every American. As polarization increases, mobility declines. The whole point of the American Dream is that it is available to everyone, not just those who awaken from their slumbers on down-filled pillows and 800-thread-count sheets.
Anonymous, a group of hackers that has previously attacked Sony and Bay Area Rapid Transit, said it will shut down the Fox News website on Nov. 5.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fa_FzQV5fpEIt announced its intentions in a video on YouTube, citing Fox News’ propaganda against the Occupy Wall Street movement as reason.
And these are a problem?, although the last one is greatly mischaracterized. His attitude is much more like Martenson’s, that a strong local community, churches, friends and family are much better at taking care of one another than the Federal government - and as goes211 pointed out, he believes the federal government should be limited to what it was set up to do in the constitution. If states want to be involved in taking care of people, they are free to do so.
While this is true, it doesn’t convey his position. He says it’s none of the Federal governments business being involved - it is a decision that needs to be left to the individual states if they wish to be involved in this decision.
I’m guessing you (or your friend) haven’t read Paul’s book (Revolution - A Manifesto). I highly recommend it because the tiny clips you get from MSM do no properly convey many of his positions - his books do a good job.
Also, I don’t believe he advocates economic growth - although he does use the term regularly, it’s more likely he believes the only way to achieve growth is the free market, but even without it, the only way to properly determine how a resource should be priced in a world of scarcity is through a free market. Anything else results in distortions that cause malinvestment.
Anyway, what was the point of your post? Since your not a US citizen, you can’t vote for Paul anyway. I’m also wondering who you think would be good? The position of the progressive seems to be "make others do what I want and think is right" but don’t tread on my rights…
Very boring here in Philly. The protesters are being kind to the homeless, but they are being overrun and distracted by them. This may morph into a movement to help local homeless people with social services. We’re NOT looking forward to having a national Occupy convention here next July 4th!
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/20111027_Occupy_Philadelphia_protesting_in_peace.html
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/20111023_Arrests_made_of_Occupy_Philly_protesters.html
